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rocksniffer

Jon Snow lives???!!??? SPOILER ARE SURE TO FOLLOW

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The thing is...Melisandre has seen herself at Winterfell. So, I don't really know if she is going to sacrifice herself or not.

My bet is either ending of episode 2 or episode 3. Episode 4 is too far, but who knows.

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45 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

The thing is...Melisandre has seen herself at Winterfell. So, I don't really know if she is going to sacrifice herself or not.

My bet is either ending of episode 2 or episode 3. Episode 4 is too far, but who knows.

I don't know how she could have seen herself at Winterfell if she dies now she gets there.

Then again, Jon could always go all Nissa-Nissa on her later. 

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1 hour ago, Ingelheim said:

The thing is...Melisandre has seen herself at Winterfell. So, I don't really know if she is going to sacrifice herself or not.

My bet is either ending of episode 2 or episode 3. Episode 4 is too far, but who knows.

Yeah, episode 2-4 sounds about right to me. It was never going to be episode 1 - partly because it would, to a certain extent, be anti-climactic to have him back in the first episode after ten months of "he's dead, totally dead, and never coming back" from HBO and everyone involved in the show, and partly because the premiere is shown to some sections of the press a fortnight before the TV showing (ergo too many spoiler possibilities).  They can't leave it too late either, because they have to re-establish him before the big battle in episode 9.

After watching episode 1, and seeing how despondent Melisandre is, I wonder if Jon's resurrection will, in fact, have nothing to do with her - that perhaps they will burn his body and he will be reborn from the ashes (foreshadowing for the ToJ scene penciled in for a Jack Bender-directed episode 5 or 6) and his rebirth will give Melisandre renewed belief in herself and her abilities.  I also wonder, after seeing tonight's episode, if Sansa will get to Castle Black before Jon is revived. Going to Winterfell in season 5, she seemed to have forgotten him entirely (given her reaction to Ramsay's mention of him) - or at least discounted him for some reason - and at the end of season 5, Theon told her Bran and Rickon were alive; now, she is with Brienne, who is in a position to tell her that Arya got out of King's Landing alive and therefore Robb is the only sibling to have died. For her to then get to Castle Black and find Jon dead, I think there would be an emotional impact.  Not sure what will happen going forward.  My opinion on this seems to change regularly, but I think we will see Jon back at some point between episode 2 and episode 4.  I get why so many think he will be resurrected in the ToJ flashback episode, but I am not sure that will give us enough time to re-establish him and see some of the consequences of his return before the big battle. 

As for the sacrifice, for some reason I currently see Ghost jumping into the flames of Jon's funeral pyre, as a willing blood sacrifice, thereby fulfilling the concept that only death may pay for life.  Perhaps Nissa Nissa's significance was that of being a willing blood sacrifice????

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They just burned maester aemon, who was also a targaryen by birth. It wouldn't make any sense for them to decide Jon is unburnable now.

I don't think Jon is coming back. If he is, it better be soon. His body will be decomposing before long.

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Sansa shouldn't get to the Wall before Jon is brought back. And I say again, shouldn't. The journey from Winterfell to Castle Black is a few weeks long. Jon's body would be nothing but bones and rotten meat by that time.

Now, we all know ShowWesteros is like 2719 times smaller than BookWesteros. Maybe D&D want Sansa to watch it all, how Jon is brought back. I could certainly understand that. I wouldn't do it myself, but, well, I'm just me.

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his body could be preserved in an ice cell but nothing can keep him from becoming a wight...unless he is burned or mel does the dondarrion on him...

i am thinking end of epi 2 his eyes open like bran's did...only now they are blue...

and honestly why have him know about wargs and accept that he is one and then not have him warg when he gets the opportunity:smoking:

 

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7 hours ago, Viper Hound said:

How about this for a twisted scenario. Mel glamours into Jon and then Jon wargs out of Ghost into the glamored Mel/Jon. LOL.

:lmao:

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I'm feeling reasonably confident Jon is back at the end of the next episode, pretty clear the Nights Watch are fucked next episode too so it's the next logical step.

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I don't think there is any point to the ToJ scene if it doesn't relate to Jon.  If he's going to come back, it would only make sense for it to happen after that scene, which I think is episode 3. I think if he's going to come back, it's either episode 3 at the end, or episode 4.  I like the idea of the Ghost sacrifice - I haven't heard that theory before.

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The reason Mel's glamor is exposed is to prepare readers for another trick of illusion to come, and the viewers may not even be aware of it.  That is, Mel will glamor Edd to look like Jon Snow risen - while JS is kept in the ice cells so that he can be buried in the WF crypts as tradition demands.

The viewers may not know until later that another is wearing the glamor of Snow.

Meanwhile, through Ghost, Jon will join Bran for a revelation via a dreamscape of his mother, father, and all that bit.

I anticipate the ruse will be revealed later in the season, and Jon' resurrection via Bran, and with the death of Bloodraven, this will be part of the grand finale.

I also think that Ghost will not die - I know, wishful thinking.  However, I see BR warging Ghost as his final life - to be an asset at the side of Jon and still a distant mentor to Bran.

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On 4/26/2016 at 8:24 PM, rocksniffer said:

his body could be preserved in an ice cell but nothing can keep him from becoming a wight...unless he is burned or mel does the dondarrion on him...

i am thinking end of epi 2 his eyes open like bran's did...only now they are blue...

and honestly why have him know about wargs and accept that he is one and then not have him warg when he gets the opportunity:smoking:

 

He cant become a Wight unless an Other some how crosses the wall. The wall has a magical barrier that keeps the Others magic from crossing. The only way a Other is going to cross the wall is if the wall falls. In a physical or metaphorical sense.  The reason why in Season / Book 1 the wights were south of the wall is because the Night Watch physical carried them across the wall. Its the same reason why Cold Hands had to send Sam to collect Bran and Co. And why the Wights cant gain access to the Children's / Blood Ravens cave.

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3 hours ago, DesertRose said:

I don't think there is any point to the ToJ scene if it doesn't relate to Jon.  If he's going to come back, it would only make sense for it to happen after that scene, which I think is episode 3. I think if he's going to come back, it's either episode 3 at the end, or episode 4.  I like the idea of the Ghost sacrifice - I haven't heard that theory before.

The Ghost thing is as old as 2012 and probably older.  I do not feel Ghost's death is necessary,  I think that Bloodraven's death will serve as the sacrifice to reanimate Jon, and that BR will warg Ghost for his final life.

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On 25/4/2016 at 5:50 AM, hallam said:

It isn't a glamour. That was a limited spell. But we know that there are also more powerful spells but they come at a cost. 

I have been pointing out that R+L = J is so obvious that it is obviously not true for quite a while. People tell me that the proof is that Jon looks like a Stark. I say that all that means is that Lyanna was involved. But she is very obviously not the mother for all the reasons the fanatics don't want to hear.

Mel's appearance and longevity clearly came from some very potent and costly magic. It is more evidence to suggest that Jon's appearance comes from Lyanna's sacrifice.

At any rate, we find out next episode because it is called 'oathbreaker'. and that can only really refer to Jon's night watch oath. 

Things that are so obvious usually are that way because they are true. A bit like the nose on your face really ;)

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On 25. 4. 2016 at 6:50 AM, hallam said:

It isn't a glamour. That was a limited spell. But we know that there are also more powerful spells but they come at a cost. 

I have been pointing out that R+L = J is so obvious that it is obviously not true for quite a while. People tell me that the proof is that Jon looks like a Stark. I say that all that means is that Lyanna was involved. But she is very obviously not the mother for all the reasons the fanatics don't want to hear.

Mel's appearance and longevity clearly came from some very potent and costly magic. It is more evidence to suggest that Jon's appearance comes from Lyanna's sacrifice.

At any rate, we find out next episode because it is called 'oathbreaker'. and that can only really refer to Jon's night watch oath. 

If R+L=J is not true then what?

They offered no other explanation than that. Only hinted at that and to pull something from under the rug would be terrible even by their standards. Shireen's sacrifice was telegraphed since season 4 obvious, Olly's bertrayl too and so on. Sometimes well a lot of times they do things for a shock value, but this is so important that they really can't. There is simply no other choice.

I think we can agree Jon is a Stark. You couldn't bond that way with direwolf for not to be, even probbaly warg in the books. So someone has to be his parent from that side. Ned is unlikely by all the things considered and tavern wench is just unlikely...Jon is special somehow and this wouldn't make any sense. To keep it secret from him. Brandon was dead and not even introduced. Only leaves us with Lyanna.

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On 4/25/2016 at 0:56 AM, Winter Rose Crown said:

They just burned maester aemon, who was also a targaryen by birth. It wouldn't make any sense for them to decide Jon is unburnable now.

I don't think Jon is coming back. If he is, it better be soon. His body will be decomposing before long.

If Jon is brought back via pyre, then I presume it will be proof that he is 'The Lord's Chosen,' rather than simply him being a Targaryen. Someone has to bring him back when he is on the pyre. Maybe Melisandre prays, or views the resurrection as R'llor declaring Jon his champion, making her regain her faith. 

I don't think book logic applies to the show when it comes to the Targaryens not being immune to fire. 

As will be seen in episode 4, when 

Drogon burns shit down and Dany walks out of a tent unburnt, making the Dothraki bow before her and Drogon.

 

I could see them having Jon mirror Dany this season. They do love the Jon and Dany parallels. 

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27 minutes ago, ~DarkHorse~ said:

If Jon is brought back via pyre, then I presume it will be proof that he is 'The Lord's Chosen,' rather than simply him being a Targaryen. Someone has to bring him back when he is on the pyre. Maybe Melisandre prays, or views the resurrection as R'llor declaring Jon his champion, making her regain her faith. 

I don't think book logic applies to the show when it comes to the Targaryens not being immune to fire. 

As will be seen in episode 4, when 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Drogon burns shit down and Dany walks out of a tent unburnt, making the Dothraki bow before her and Drogon.

 

I could see them having Jon mirror Dany this season. They do love the Jon and Dany parallels. 

Maybe both will be declared champions. Simply I agree that they might ant to mirror them and both of them survining pyre.

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I don't know that it's a given that Mel is sacrificing herself to resurrect Jon. The way I read the scene was that she had completely and totally given up, and perhaps, as the necklace was keeping her young, taking it off and lying down to sleep may have been her committing suicide in a way (tho we obviously won't know for sure til episode 2). 

Mel resurrecting Jon was and is the most popular fan theory (and what I was convinced would happen before the episode) so maybe having her give up /relinquish her powers means that Mel won't resurrect Jon at all, or at least not right away. Game of Thrones loves to mess with expectations. 

I desperately want him to come back alive though. Maybe he'll warg into Ghost. 

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16 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

If R+L=J is not true then what?

They offered no other explanation than that. Only hinted at that and to pull something from under the rug would be terrible even by their standards. Shireen's sacrifice was telegraphed since season 4 obvious, Olly's bertrayl too and so on. Sometimes well a lot of times they do things for a shock value, but this is so important that they really can't. There is simply no other choice.

I think we can agree Jon is a Stark. You couldn't bond that way with direwolf for not to be, even probbaly warg in the books. So someone has to be his parent from that side. Ned is unlikely by all the things considered and tavern wench is just unlikely...Jon is special somehow and this wouldn't make any sense. To keep it secret from him. Brandon was dead and not even introduced. Only leaves us with Lyanna.

No, I don't agree that Jon is Stark. We agree that Ned isn't the father, that much is clear. I do not think that the 'Slutty Lyanna' (or R+L=J if you will) theory is remotely credible. Lyanna was betrothed to Robert. To run off with Rhegar would make her as bad as Cersei and Jamie, she would have caused the civil war that ended the Targarean dynasty. Ned certainly wouldn't consider her actions so noble as to build a monument to her in the family crypt.

What we do know is that Jon goes down to the crypts in a dream where he is not a Stark. The only logical reason is to open Lyanna's tomb where he is going to find Dawn/Lightbringer.

The only two pieces of 'evidence' that exist for Slutty Lyanna are Jon 'I am a' CONington saying that he heard someone tell him that someone heard that one of the Measters said that Elia couldn't have any more children and Jon looks Stark. Which in a world where we have numerous examples of magic and people changing appearance is no evidence whatsoever.

Slutty Lyanna is obviously not the full story, it is a story that appeals to out 21st century moral outlook but that doesn't extend past Dorne in the books.

All the clues are there in the books: Rheagar's missing seventh ruby, fake Aegon, Benjen joining the watch, the three headed prophecy, Lyanna's death, the tomb.

It is a vastly better plot than Slutty Lyanna or Rapist Rheagar. 

15 hours ago, ~DarkHorse~ said:

If Jon is brought back via pyre, then I presume it will be proof that he is 'The Lord's Chosen,' rather than simply him being a Targaryen. Someone has to bring him back when he is on the pyre. Maybe Melisandre prays, or views the resurrection as R'llor declaring Jon his champion, making her regain her faith. 

I don't think book logic applies to the show when it comes to the Targaryens not being immune to fire. 

As will be seen in episode 4, when 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Drogon burns shit down and Dany walks out of a tent unburnt, making the Dothraki bow before her and Drogon.

 

I could see them having Jon mirror Dany this season. They do love the Jon and Dany parallels. 

I predicted that Mel would end up on a bonfire last year. It is by far the most logical way for her to go. Only it isn't necessarily voluntarily. The Wildings would burn her in revenge for Mance. So would the remnants of Stannis' army. The watch might if they knew about Shireen. 

All through the books, Mel is predicting AA and trying to bring about his appearance. So it would be ironic if she had to die for him to appear. Which is of course a good reason for GRRM to do that.

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