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rocksniffer

...and the women of Dorne get some get back...SPOILER?? OF COURSE

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I'm a bloodthirsty viewer and I still think this plotline is completely idiotic.  Seriously seriously idiotic.  Has anyone asked D&D what they're doing here?  How can they even defend this?  Let's just work with the show and ignore the books:

1) The sandsnakes are insulted that Elia and Oberyn Martell have died at the hands of Lannisters... so they kill two more... Martells?! (Ending the legitimate Martell line)?!  Trystane is basically their younger brother.  It makes no sense to be so callous when killing their own blood - it's illogical given how their own honour system is constructed in the show as being about family over everyone else (and the Westerosi taboo on kinslaying - and we have no reason to believe that Dorne is any different here).  Who would have thought that Oberyn "In Dorne we do not hurt little girls" was even in a relationship with Ellaria?

2) Some in Dorne might think Doran weak but ALL of his guards?  And someone else already said, if he was so unpopular how come it was so hard to kill Myrcella in the first place? And how could Areo Hotah die so quickly?  And how could he, as the head of the security, not have loyal guards in his employ - surely he would know if there was some (or UNANIMOUS) dissension in the ranks.

3)  There are now no more Martells - only Sands.  I know Dorne is more culturally more accepting of bastards.  Females are also permitted to inherit.  But they've ridden roughshod over these nuances.  Cultural acceptance is not the same as Martell bannermen accepting the convenient deaths of their liege lord and his heir (unless they are cleverly deceived and the blame is laid at the feet of the Lannisters). The fact that they killed the messenger might mean they intend on some form of lie.  But this would be hard to pull of given the facts.  Only the king can legitimise bastards... and the king is Tommen... so what is their long term plan?

4)  The plot makes no sense of who would do what on the boat after Myrcella dies.  They are on a Dornish ship which presumably is controlled by Trystane with Bronn and Jaime as guests.  So wouldn't Trystane go back to Doran immediately after Myrcella died?  Would Jaime and Bronn simply return back to Kings Landing?  Where is Bronn?  If Trystane was somehow overpowered why wasn't he with Jaime under guard?

5)  How do these deaths further the plot points that some people are saying are a necessary evil? None of this is needed for Dany to land in Dorne.  

6) There are two more realistic scenarios.  ONE - they flee after killing Myrcella (knowing Doran might imprison them).  Some of their allies on the ship take Trystane as a hostage (their odds are better on a ship as Doran loyalists are fewer) and Jaime and Bronn are left on the boat to go back to Kings Landing.  With Trystane they effectively hold Doran by the balls, Myrcella is dead, and war is inevitable.  

Or TWO - Ellaria doesn't care whether she lives or dies, so she confronts Doran after killing Myrcella.  They could have had a heated and emotional discussion, starting in anger and ending with conciliation (which would have been dramatic and an excellent use of their acting skills) - it could have resulted in the fire and blood speech and a truce and agreement to plot together - Ellaria being brought in on Doran's schemes and Doran now forced to think more quickly.  Doran and Trystane don't need to die for Dany to land in Dorne.  Doran could have welcomed her without any marriage plot.  

I generally think the TV show is great.  But the Dorne plotline is awful.  And I can't understand why so many tv reviewers and writers don't pick up on the plot inconsistencies etc. here.  

(Don't even get me started on that Bustle article that calls this whole sorry plotline female empowerment - if I ever meet that writer...)

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I'm personally not a fan of the Dorne storyline so far. The Sand Snakes just seem like mindless caricatures. ASOIAF is supposed to show that there is no black and white, everyone's a shade of grey. GoT is turning simply black and white. Goodies Vs Badies. It's infantile. Especially Jaimie who was showing a lot of character development but has now just been turned into a dick again. And who taught Tristane how to fight? Doesn't he know he should never get between two opponents? It's self defence 101. That wasn't believable. The infantile reaction & comment of the sand snakes ease at killing their cousin was irritating, boring & also not believable. Whilst I'm on that scene, a whip is not useful in small cramped quarters! Ridiculous. Long spear is also not a good choice.

My main bane is the cardboard cut out portrayal of the sand snakes so far, they have no cerebral appeal whatsoever. Really showing a huge divide here between the styles of GRRM & the TV Writers. 

p.s Melisandre was excellent.

 

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I'm of two minds on the show Dorne events of this episode.

On one hand, it was awful. Poorly put together, the logic behind what D+D have Ellaria and the sand snakes doing. When Jaime's ship is leaving Dorne they are on the dock together waving goodbye, but when Jamie gets off the ship, the sand snakes are in KL to sneak on board to kill Tristan? Did they just quietly follow them in a boat for days/weeks without being seen? Or did they grab Jaime's rocket pack he left behind in Dorne?

The sandsnakes just murder their cousin in cold blood? Happily? What did he do to deserve it? How is this helping their family when they are murdering almost as many of them as the Lannisters did?

I know women can ascend to rule Dorne, but can bastards? Can girlfriends? Who is going to rule Dorne in name now? If it's Ellaria, how did Ellaria become princess?

On the OTHER hand...I always felt like the entire Dornish plot in the books was a waste of time. I was never deeply interested in it and it always felt like it was thrown in as filler. Quentin didn't amount to anything, and I don't think Aegon and Arriane are going to make it very far together in Westeros as a power couple. I highly doubt they will sit the Iron Throne in the books. So in the show a part of me is fine with seeing the show version of the Dornish plot reduced to ashes. Screw them all. I don't really care if  Tristan and Doran die, or that Quentin and half of the sand snakes don't exist in the show. Arriane not existing in the show tells me she isn't as important to the future of the books as we are led to believe.

I think the important thing (if it even matters because honestly it all sucks and I'm not trying to defend it), is that the sandsnakes are in KL now looking for revenge. That much matches up with the books. I suspect they will kill a few people before they are killed off themselves and that will be the end of Dorne's involvement; they aren't in the books to be part of the endgame, but to create chaos on the WAY to the endgame.

 

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I'm of two minds on the show Dorne events of this episode.

On one hand, it was awful. Poorly put together, the logic behind what D+D have Ellaria and the sand snakes doing. When Jaime's ship is leaving Dorne they are on the dock together waving goodbye, but when Jamie gets off the ship, the sand snakes are in KL to sneak on board to kill Tristan? Did they just quietly follow them in a boat for days/weeks without being seen? Or did they grab Jaime's rocket pack he left behind in Dorne?

The sandsnakes just murder their cousin in cold blood? Happily? What did he do to deserve it? How is this helping their family when they are murdering almost as many of them as the Lannisters did?

I know women can ascend to rule Dorne, but can bastards? Can girlfriends? Who is going to rule Dorne in name now? If it's Ellaria, how did Ellaria become princess?

On the OTHER hand...I always felt like the entire Dornish plot in the books was a waste of time. I was never deeply interested in it and it always felt like it was thrown in as filler. Quentin didn't amount to anything, and I don't think Aegon and Arriane are going to make it very far together in Westeros as a power couple. I highly doubt they will sit the Iron Throne in the books. So in the show a part of me is fine with seeing the show version of the Dornish plot reduced to ashes. Screw them all. I don't really care if  Tristan and Doran die, or that Quentin and half of the sand snakes don't exist in the show. Arriane not existing in the show tells me she isn't as important to the future of the books as we are led to believe.

I think the important thing (if it even matters because honestly it all sucks and I'm not trying to defend it), is that the sandsnakes are in KL now looking for revenge. That much matches up with the books. I suspect they will kill a few people before they are killed off themselves and that will be the end of Dorne's involvement; they aren't in the books to be part of the endgame, but to create chaos on the WAY to the endgame.

 

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Yeah they completely butchered the Dorne stuff, like to an astonishing degree. Literally nothing that was truly interesting or unique about that place or it's characters, is in this show (well besides Oberyn, he was still cool). And WOW did they do a number on Ellaria's character as well.

Oh and don't even get me started on Sansa's arc since last season. I could rage on that for hours. Oh and what a complete and utter waste of Alexander Siddig as well.

Oh and how the heck did the SS get onto the boat, they were still on the dock when it was leaving last season?  Are the teleporters or something?  And if they're magically back in Dorne next episode, I'm going to face-palm so hard. 

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Too bad the Lannisters don't have any family atomics. They could be put to good use in Dorne.

And I was so looking forward to seeing Doran having a positive influence on the future of Westeros. All those blood oranges.

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Overall it wasn't a bad episode, but the only part that struck me as particularly bad was the Dornish part. It didn't make much sense, but unlike last season something might actually be happening in Dorne. Let's see if they actually make something from it. I wouldn't mind a lousy set-up a lot less if the plot that follows is good, which remains to be seen.

 

Still, if they wanted Trystane and Doran dead, and the Sand Snakes in charge of Dorne they could have made it a lot better without adding much screentime. If Cersei killed Trystane in a rage and Doran did nothing, then Ellaria's actions would be more realistic. Better yet, if they had the support of the guards they could have confined Doran to a room and ruled in his name.

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Ellaria and the Sand Snakes must be the dumbest people in all of Westeros.

We want revenge for our father! Let's kill all the family he has left! He would totally want his beloved brother and nephew to die.
And making a joke after killing your own blood? It just doesn't fit in the series...

Doran had so much potentional... I loved him in the books and the actor is great. Such a waste.

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Pretty sure that those two sand snakes are going to tyrion and varys to ally with Dany. Also pretty sure ellaria gives a speech about getting revenge with fire and blood. 

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This episode made me sick, especially when I saw in the comment section in sites like winteriscoming.com how the feminists were praising Ellaria and the Sandsnakes' despicable and idiotic action as "female empowerment" while they would definitely condemd men to death for doing the same things.

I hate the Dornishmen especially the Martells for their pettiness and hypocrisy.

Doran might be a weak and passive ruler but he was quite reasonable. His inactions in the books are from his needlessly high caution and the Dornishmen's resentment and pettiness. Doran is to blame for his inaction regarding Viserys and Daenerys. But I'd blame the entire Dornishmen for their resentment and pettiness regarding Dorne's inaction during Wot5K.

I think the Dornish side's reactions to Wot5K would be like "We should side with Robb/Stannis/Renly to destroy the Lannisters, but since the Starks and Baratheons were the main actors in Robert's Ursurpation, even if the Targaryens were at fault, we shouldn't help them and sit around idly for them all to kill each other". Even if Doran wanted to join force with the Starks and the Baratheons, his men might be too petty to do that. And that's it, the reasons for Dorne's inactions until now were very stupid and petty.

Doran in the books: Passive, take too many inactions, probably petty regarding the Starks and the Baratheons

Doran in the shows: Same as in the books. I wouldn't call him stupid for not knowing that Ellaria and the Sandsnakes would kill him and his heir out of spite. The Dornish women's actions were too bloodthirsty and stupid for him to even believe they'd really do. How could he believe that they would kill the brother and nephew of their beloved Oberyn? Oberyn must be cursing those women in his grave now.

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13 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

Pretty sure that those two sand snakes are going to tyrion and varys to ally with Dany. Also pretty sure ellaria gives a speech about getting revenge with fire and blood. 

God I hope not, they ruin everything they touch.  I hope they don't pollute any other story lines.  They are awful. 

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What the SS and Elleria did is very similar to Walder Frey and Roose Bolton at the RW to me. They committed treason against their king or prince.

Both didn't have faith in the people ruling them and thought they could do it better so took a chance at a power grab (and probably can't). They attacked and killed the lords unexpectedly in relatively "peaceful places" The Water Gardens and a Wedding. Not only did they kill King / prince but they killed the important / innocent people close to them to ensure they weren't challenged after. Tystane, Areo, Talisa aka Jeyne, Northerrn Lords. Both will have trouble uniting or controlling the region after the overthrow.

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21 minutes ago, The Dames do Moan said:

What the SS and Elleria did is very similar to Walder Frey and Roose Bolton at the RW to me. They committed treason against their king or prince.

Both didn't have faith in the people ruling them and thought they could do it better so took a chance at a power grab (and probably can't). They attacked and killed the lords unexpectedly in relatively "peaceful places" The Water Gardens and a Wedding. Not only did they kill King / prince but they killed the important / innocent people close to them to ensure they weren't challenged after. Tystane, Areo, Talisa aka Jeyne, Northerrn Lords. Both will have trouble uniting or controlling the region after the overthrow.

I agree but i think they are going to get enough of dorne on her side to go to war but she is going to go for dany for help because dorne is not powerful enough to do it without allies. 

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1 minute ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

I agree but i think they are going to get enough of dorne on her side to go to war but she is going to go for dany for help because dorne is not powerful enough to do it without allies. 

yeah, I think she could get some on her side maybe. I just see it as a little bit worse of an act then the RW though because they weren't even at war and it was kinslaying. I really hope Dany doesn't side with them (w/o faegon she prob will though). 

Yeah, if they choose to attack outside Dorne they would get smashed without allies. If the holed up in Dorne and provocted an attack they may be able to stand up for a while.

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Yes it certainly blew my mind.

 

Not in a good way though. The entire dornish plot is at this point, downright stupid. Lets ignore the books for a second and focus on Show Dorne where they value their family heritage enough to travel to Kings Landing and fight the Mountain to secure a confession and make a note to say how they dont hurt children, yet a season later we are taking a dump on Oberyn by killing his brother and nephew, in Oberyns honor.

 

Makes sense.

 

The dialogue is terrible. Theyre trying to be sassy young females. It comes across as nothing short of cringeworthy.

 

Dorne needs to just die. D&D have ruined it. It is beyond salvage.

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