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rocksniffer

...and the women of Dorne get some get back...SPOILER?? OF COURSE

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I just read the spoilers for this today. Totally irrational. Never in a million years would a book sand snake be able to kill Hotah. And their own family? Flies right in the face of everything that family is about.  

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5 minutes ago, The Dames do Moan said:

yeah, I think she could get some on her side maybe. I just see it as a little bit worse of an act then the RW though because they weren't even at war and it was kinslaying. I really hope Dany doesn't side with them (w/o faegon she prob will though). 

Yeah, if they choose to attack outside Dorne they would get smashed without allies. If the holed up in Dorne and provocted an attack they may be able to stand up for a while.

Well also the Ironmen i think are also going to attack the reach this year so they could unknowingly have some help. 

 

6 minutes ago, Misnthropia said:

Yes it certainly blew my mind.

 

Not in a good way though. The entire dornish plot is at this point, downright stupid. Lets ignore the books for a second and focus on Show Dorne where they value their family heritage enough to travel to Kings Landing and fight the Mountain to secure a confession and make a note to say how they dont hurt children, yet a season later we are taking a dump on Oberyn by killing his brother and nephew, in Oberyns honor.

 

Makes sense.

 

The dialogue is terrible. Theyre trying to be sassy young females. It comes across as nothing short of cringeworthy.

 

Dorne needs to just die. D&D have ruined it. It is beyond salvage.

Yeah oberyn's brother seemed to be on the same page. His people and his lover no. When did we ever hear she is in agreement with him about it? She is on for blood now. This was already 100% more dorne than i thought we were going to get.

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Who in their right mind are they going to be able to convince to help them after this kinslaying? Are they going to blame the Lannisters for it and everyone is dumb enough to be accepting of it. I certainly hope its not so Dany can come to Westeros through Dorne. I want this to be the complete end of Dorne, and it certainly feels like it. Maybe D&D were surprised at the popularity of Oberyn and felt pressured to do things and Dorne, and werent ready to send Jamie to the Riverlands like the books. The 180 of Ellaria, the lack of 2 of Dorans children, the terrible SS and their uniformity..its like D&D took everything away that made Dorne different. Its shocking to go this route and not have Arianne there to take Doran's place after Ellaria's 'no weak mean will rule Dorna again' comment. And if the SS die in KL does that mean Dorne will then go to war with KL? Or do they try to plant Trystane's body somewhere and say Jamie and Cersei did it? ITs just so painfully bad, and a shame. 

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4 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

Well also the Ironmen i think are also going to attack the reach this year so they could unknowingly have some help. 

 

Yeah oberyn's brother seemed to be on the same page. His people and his lover no. When did we ever hear she is in agreement with him about it? She is on for blood now. This was already 100% more dorne than i thought we were going to get.

Yeah I agree that's where we're going, similar to the book. 

 

 

The only way I will appreciate what D&D did in this episode is... Next episode have the SS's and Elleria turn on each other and all die or just all die from other reasons. And then have D&D come out and say - "yeah we realized how bad the Dorne storylines we decided to have all the characters kill off each other right away and move on. We didn't even want to spend the time for 1 other character to travel there. Even with the teleport machine."

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22 hours ago, Hrokkan of Skagos said:

Can we just nuke Dorne?

^^^ This is the only way to go on the show now.

I was so disappointed with the Dorne scenes from e01 :/ Just stab Areo Hotah in the back like he aint nothin! what a load..

Dorne was an absolute waste of time last season, and it is a total waste of some good casting, I.e. Doran, I was hoping for some kind of improvement this season. I didnt imagine it could actually get any worse :wacko::wacko:

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Just now, The Onion Kniggit said:

Could someone explain how the hell Obara and Nymeria got onto that ship? I'm being serious.

Borrowed Lord Baelish's TARDIS.

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14 hours ago, Apple the Great said:

You're entitled to your own opinion but I don't think it was luck that Doran managed to rumble Arianne's plot, imprison the SSs, get a SS on the small council and have Myrcella as a hostage. He might be marrying his kids to people, but that was a crucial aspect of diplomacy, so why do you knock it? Had Quentin succeeded, Dorne would be in a very strong position.

He is a lot of talk, very little action, but, to quote Plato "wise people speak when they have something to say, fools speak when they have to say something."

He isn't dumb But he ain't no Manderly. His revenge plot is unravelling. There were other ways he could've went about his plan relied to heavily on luck. It's another case of something giving a big speech that is hollow. Aren't we tired of that? And since his plan revolves around other people. there isn't really much he can do. I mean, lets say D+D killed Ellaria and the Sand Snakes instead, what then? Are we going to cut back to Doran sitting around patting himself on the back for an awesome speech?

I know some would say they should've included Arianne an Quentin, but they awful characters, Arianne mostly is. She adds nothing that other female bring to the story. And her problem, being jealous of Quentin, I just don't care about or sympathise with. Compared to the problems other female characters like Sansa and Margaery and Brienne have to deal with. Arianne is basically a poor little rich girl complaining that her daddy bought her the wrong colour Porche.

They should of just never included Dorne to begin with. Or maybe just introduce her with Dany if that's where she'll go first. In fact, I really don't think they were planning to. Back in season 3-4 D+D made a comment on how they've reached the limit on new people and now it's about condensing. Even the Greyjoy story wasn't supposed to be included considering how they went out of their way to give Dany ships.

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Compare the books:

 

Quote

This invitation Cersei sent us is a ruse. Trystane is never meant to reach King’s Landing. On the road back, somewhere in the kingswood, Ser Balon’s party will be attacked by outlaws, and my son will die.

 

Quote

Areo Hotah would not have believed it possible to shock the Sand Snakes. He would have been wrong.

“Seven save us,” whispered Tyene. “Trystane? Why?”

“The woman must be mad,” Obara said. “He’s just a boy.”

“This is monstrous,” said Lady Nym. “I would not have believed it, not of a Kingsguard knight.”

 

to what we just saw in the show. It's like the showrunners read the books and choose to do the direct opposite. Funny thing is that those quotes could be used to describe what just happened.

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I actually wonder how the show will treat Dorne in general.

In the books, Dorne is sparsely populated, poor and relatively weak. Small population (=small armies), no navy, no natural resources, and a poor reputation. Doran has very little to work with, and he knows fully well that in a serious war, it'd take a couple of weeks to reduce its towns to rubble. It's tremendously hard to conquer completely, thanks to the hostile climate, but Dorne can't project any power and its towns are defenseless. The only thing Dorne can do well is serve as a bridge head for an invasion. Allies are desperately needed for Dorne to do anything beyond its own borders.

But in the show, it wouldn't surprise me if they suddenly turned Dorne into a powerhouse. Its cities untouchable, Dornish armies showing up at a whim all over Westeros, sudden allies everywhere. We've gotten no backstory on this remote region of Westeros, so if D&D suddenly say "They're as powerful as the Reach, and the Water Gardens is a fortress stronger than Storm's End", they're not contradicting themselves.

Hopefully, the next episode will feature the Sand Snakes realizing they've poked a beast stronger than they can handle, and we get to see the "flee their burning cities to come back and scrape together a new life later" tactic we know from the books.

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Quote

 Quentin didn't amount to anything

While Quentin didn't see himself to any good accomplishments, his "job" in the books was to let loose the remaining two dragons, which seems to be important because (spoiler based on trailer info next) 

Spoiler

Apparently Tyrion decides to free them now.

And Ellaria + SS ruling Dorne now would be really lame because all that was already mentioned, the lack of Martell bloodline being the main reason. A better thing would have been Doran revealing that he was craving vengeance all this time somehow, as he did in the books, and go from there if the show's objective was for Dorne to declare war on KL.

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On 25/04/2016 at 1:20 AM, Drasanil said:

Talk about doing Oberyn proud... killing innocent children... murdering their own family... anyone else hoping for wight-Oberyn to come back and give them holy hell?

 

I mean damn, even book Cersei is starting to look downright decent compared to this lot <_<

My thoughts exactly! They made smart and sweet Ellaria turn crazier and even more bitchy than Cersei. And Cersei... well, the show is making us relate to her and understand her paranoia as if it's an ok thing. WTF?!

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Genius! Pure genius!

D&D use mindblowing characteristics which pay no respect to formal qualities of what is usually expected from "an adaptation". Instead of using the stale format of logic, the sandsnakes are able to poison Myrcella without the ship turning around - then in this episode, they are able to kill Doran and Trystane (on said ship!) while the guards seems to have done a 180 from last time. In addition, Areo Hotah was made inte a weakling simply killed despite being able to kill a kingsguard - this however is obviously a masterstroke. By emotionally detach us from the action we are instead more ready to understand that Ellaria has the PEOPLE behind her, despite we havn´t seen the people´s reaction and that Ellaria has the support needed, despite coming of as a treacherous terrorist.

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10 hours ago, jbob said:

He isn't dumb But he ain't no Manderly. His revenge plot is unravelling. There were other ways he could've went about his plan relied to heavily on luck. It's another case of something giving a big speech that is hollow. Aren't we tired of that? And since his plan revolves around other people. there isn't really much he can do. I mean, lets say D+D killed Ellaria and the Sand Snakes instead, what then? Are we going to cut back to Doran sitting around patting himself on the back for an awesome speech?

I know some would say they should've included Arianne an Quentin, but they awful characters, Arianne mostly is. She adds nothing that other female bring to the story. And her problem, being jealous of Quentin, I just don't care about or sympathise with. Compared to the problems other female characters like Sansa and Margaery and Brienne have to deal with. Arianne is basically a poor little rich girl complaining that her daddy bought her the wrong colour Porche.

They should of just never included Dorne to begin with. Or maybe just introduce her with Dany if that's where she'll go first. In fact, I really don't think they were planning to. Back in season 3-4 D+D made a comment on how they've reached the limit on new people and now it's about condensing. Even the Greyjoy story wasn't supposed to be included considering how they went out of their way to give Dany ships.

Personally I think Arriane has one important contribution - she shows how much of his daugther she is and that her badly constructed plans are a direct reference to the so called "master plans" Doran uses. 

Doran is seen as this strategic mastermind when in reality his plans suck through and through. They are not thought out, he send the wrong people to the wrong places, he makes no effort to care for the Targaryen childrens well-being when said well-being is crucial for him, he is overly optimistic with his plans, he keeps them secret for too long so no one knows what he fights for, etc. 

Arianne can blame Doran for a part of this (she unskilled because she has been used as partyplanner rather than hier) but she do the same thing in her plan. She is overly optimistic with her plans, she keeps her true reason secret in many, many years. Her plan is not thought out and she trusts at least one person too much, her long-term-planning comes crashing down too. Both are able to do political analysing without being good at committing their ideas to practice.  

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I really thought that what D&D would do was: Have Jaime take Trystane into custody, then Cersei going totally nuts and murdering a precious (and innocent) hostage. Jaime would be shocked with Cersei's idiot move, and also her lack of humanity, killing an innocent boy in a terrible and painful way (hypocritical, since he threw a boy from a tower). But it would be a nice way to show Jaime's development as decent person (or at least with a little sense of moral), and the contrast with Cersei's even more batshit crazy personality. Both fight, Cersei says some more things that makes Jaime realize how much of a sociopath she truly is and there is a rupture in their relationship. Jaime leaves for the Riverlands. Cersei's stays in KL, in the middle of chaos and an imminent war with Dorne.

Meanwhile in Dorne, Doran gets fucking pissed with Ellaria for killing Myrcella, arrests her and the SS for trial. But before said trial happens, the news of Trystane's brutal murder arrive. He releases Ellaria and the SS, and goes on "fire&blood" mode, plotting revenge for his dead son.

It would make much more sense.

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14 minutes ago, Anna Marzo said:

I really thought that what D&D would do was: Have Jaime take Trystane into custody, then Cersei going totally nuts and murdering a precious (and innocent) hostage. Jaime would be shocked with Cersei's idiot move, and also her lack of humanity, killing an innocent boy in a terrible and painful way (hypocritical, since he threw a boy from a tower). But it would be a nice way to show Jaime's development as decent person (or at least with a little sense of moral), and the contrast with Cersei's even more batshit crazy personality. Both fight, Cersei says some more things that makes Jaime realize how much of a sociopath she truly is and there is a rupture in their relationship. Jaime leaves for the Riverlands. Cersei's stays in KL, in the middle of chaos and an imminent war with Dorne.

Meanwhile in Dorne, Doran gets fucking pissed with Ellaria for killing Myrcella, arrests her and the SS for trial. But before said trial happens, the news of Trystane's brutal murder arrive. He releases Ellaria and the SS, and goes on "fire&blood" mode, plotting revenge for his dead son.

It would make much more sense.

Yes, that would have been a much better trajectory.

Although they should have left out Dorne altogether.  Clearly, they don't know what to do with it to make it work and it throws off the rest of the show because it's done so poorly.

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1 hour ago, Anna Marzo said:

I really thought that what D&D would do was: Have Jaime take Trystane into custody, then Cersei going totally nuts and murdering a precious (and innocent) hostage. Jaime would be shocked with Cersei's idiot move, and also her lack of humanity, killing an innocent boy in a terrible and painful way (hypocritical, since he threw a boy from a tower). But it would be a nice way to show Jaime's development as decent person (or at least with a little sense of moral), and the contrast with Cersei's even more batshit crazy personality. Both fight, Cersei says some more things that makes Jaime realize how much of a sociopath she truly is and there is a rupture in their relationship. Jaime leaves for the Riverlands. Cersei's stays in KL, in the middle of chaos and an imminent war with Dorne.

Meanwhile in Dorne, Doran gets fucking pissed with Ellaria for killing Myrcella, arrests her and the SS for trial. But before said trial happens, the news of Trystane's brutal murder arrive. He releases Ellaria and the SS, and goes on "fire&blood" mode, plotting revenge for his dead son.

It would make much more sense.

I've a better idea:

>Ellaria doesn't kill Myrcella.

>Send her teleporting SS to kill Tommen.

>Trystane marries Myrcella and becomes king.

>House Martell wins with a single death

But that would make too much sense for D&D.

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i am still feeling bad for creepy dorne. now who the fuck wrote this dialogues??

 

" Elia Martell raped and murdered. u did nothing. Oberyn martell butchered and u did nothing." 

is this how we speak at home calling full names ? 

why didnt she say  " Your sister was raped and murdered. you did nothing. Your brother was butchered. you did nothing"

 

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Please refresh my memory - is kinslaying supposed to be a big taboo in the show too? Because it certainly didn't seem so in these scenes.

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1 hour ago, David Selig said:

Please refresh my memory - is kinslaying supposed to be a big taboo in the show too? Because it certainly didn't seem so in these scenes.

It is a taboo, but apparently not in Dorne, where nothing is taboo. In a place where it's ok for a paramour bastard to murder a Prince of Dorne and no one does anything about it, the prince's guards included.

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