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rocksniffer

...and the women of Dorne get some get back...SPOILER?? OF COURSE

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13 hours ago, Ludo Kressh said:

That would be the only interesting thing coming from the Dorne plot...but you still have to deal with the plot contrivance that got them there.

I agree, the logic on the show sometimes goes out the window. If I had to MAKE up a reason? The sandsnakes followed Jaime's boat up the coast in a faster boat and waited for them do arrive. Jaime had a coffin in the boat for Myrcella so he must have made one or more stops along the way that slowed him down. Then they grrrl-powered their way onto the boat without being seen when Jaime left the boat with Myrcella's body. Maybe they killed everybody on the boat to GET to Tristan, and we just didn't see it.

 

What I wonder is, not that I'm one to question grrrl-power, but what would these broads have done if Jaime immediately took Tristan off the boat with him as a hostage? They never would have gotten their hands on him then. Good thing for them Jaime left him on the boat!

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On 4/27/2016 at 9:56 PM, Minsc said:

Jaime had no problem killing his cousin, so I assume it isn't that big of deal on the show.

This small deviation of kinslaying meaning nothing in the show makes me a little sad...

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9 hours ago, Big Daddy said:

I agree, the logic on the show sometimes goes out the window. If I had to MAKE up a reason? The sandsnakes followed Jaime's boat up the coast in a faster boat and waited for them do arrive. Jaime had a coffin in the boat for Myrcella so he must have made one or more stops along the way that slowed him down. Then they grrrl-powered their way onto the boat without being seen when Jaime left the boat with Myrcella's body. Maybe they killed everybody on the boat to GET to Tristan, and we just didn't see it.

 

What I wonder is, not that I'm one to question grrrl-power, but what would these broads have done if Jaime immediately took Tristan off the boat with him as a hostage? They never would have gotten their hands on him then. Good thing for them Jaime left him on the boat!

Yeah, a lot had to work in their favor for this plot to work. I get that they somehow caught up to the boat, but like you and others have said, if Trystane had been taken hostage it would have blown their plans out of the water. I think it would have better(and Ellaria's plot would have made more sense) if Cersei or Jaime had actually killed Trystane and given Dorne a reason to go to war.

But Jaime sent a note to Doran and we got the bloodbath that followed.

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On 2016年4月28日 at 7:12 AM, teemo said:

This small deviation of kinslaying meaning nothing in the show makes me a little sad...

Only when Stannis did it, they remembered how it was.

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On 4/25/2016 at 5:13 PM, Punting on the Honeywine said:

<snip>

4)  The plot makes no sense of who would do what on the boat after Myrcella dies.  They are on a Dornish ship which presumably is controlled by Trystane with Bronn and Jaime as guests.  So wouldn't Trystane go back to Doran immediately after Myrcella died?  Would Jaime and Bronn simply return back to Kings Landing?  Where is Bronn?  If Trystane was somehow overpowered why wasn't he with Jaime under guard?

<snip>

All your points make a lot of sense. That one especially. People seem to forget this was NOT Jaime's boat, since Cersei had the brilliant idea of sending him on a incognito ninja mission. The boat is Dornish and he is a guest on it, with no guards of his own whatsoever. Which makes Trystane the boss when things don't go according to plan and Myrcella dies. How dumb is it for Trystane to not even think "uh-oh, altough it's not my fault, the crazy Lannister mommy might not be too happy when I show up with her dead daughter. Better get back to my father instead and let him know Ellaria went behind his back."

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while i agree kinslaying is supposed to be taboo, the crazy girls in dorne weren't the first or i suspect will they be the last to do it...we have seen kinslaying (or attempted kinslaying) through all the books and the show... 

Spoiler

robb and karstark...jamie and cousin....tyrion and daddy .... euron and balon...and of course cersei has been trying to kill tyrion for years...

...and then we have stannis...the kinslaying king 

just to name a few

:smoking:

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On 4/25/2016 at 5:13 PM, Punting on the Honeywine said:

I'm a bloodthirsty viewer and I still think this plotline is completely idiotic.  Seriously seriously idiotic.  Has anyone asked D&D what they're doing here?  How can they even defend this?  Let's just work with the show and ignore the books:

1) The sandsnakes are insulted that Elia and Oberyn Martell have died at the hands of Lannisters... so they kill two more... Martells?! (Ending the legitimate Martell line)?!  Trystane is basically their younger brother.  It makes no sense to be so callous when killing their own blood - it's illogical given how their own honour system is constructed in the show as being about family over everyone else (and the Westerosi taboo on kinslaying - and we have no reason to believe that Dorne is any different here).  Who would have thought that Oberyn "In Dorne we do not hurt little girls" was even in a relationship with Ellaria?

2) Some in Dorne might think Doran weak but ALL of his guards?  And someone else already said, if he was so unpopular how come it was so hard to kill Myrcella in the first place? And how could Areo Hotah die so quickly?  And how could he, as the head of the security, not have loyal guards in his employ - surely he would know if there was some (or UNANIMOUS) dissension in the ranks.

3)  There are now no more Martells - only Sands.  I know Dorne is more culturally more accepting of bastards.  Females are also permitted to inherit.  But they've ridden roughshod over these nuances.  Cultural acceptance is not the same as Martell bannermen accepting the convenient deaths of their liege lord and his heir (unless they are cleverly deceived and the blame is laid at the feet of the Lannisters). The fact that they killed the messenger might mean they intend on some form of lie.  But this would be hard to pull of given the facts.  Only the king can legitimise bastards... and the king is Tommen... so what is their long term plan?

4)  The plot makes no sense of who would do what on the boat after Myrcella dies.  They are on a Dornish ship which presumably is controlled by Trystane with Bronn and Jaime as guests.  So wouldn't Trystane go back to Doran immediately after Myrcella died?  Would Jaime and Bronn simply return back to Kings Landing?  Where is Bronn?  If Trystane was somehow overpowered why wasn't he with Jaime under guard?

5)  How do these deaths further the plot points that some people are saying are a necessary evil? None of this is needed for Dany to land in Dorne.  

6) There are two more realistic scenarios.  ONE - they flee after killing Myrcella (knowing Doran might imprison them).  Some of their allies on the ship take Trystane as a hostage (their odds are better on a ship as Doran loyalists are fewer) and Jaime and Bronn are left on the boat to go back to Kings Landing.  With Trystane they effectively hold Doran by the balls, Myrcella is dead, and war is inevitable.  

Or TWO - Ellaria doesn't care whether she lives or dies, so she confronts Doran after killing Myrcella.  They could have had a heated and emotional discussion, starting in anger and ending with conciliation (which would have been dramatic and an excellent use of their acting skills) - it could have resulted in the fire and blood speech and a truce and agreement to plot together - Ellaria being brought in on Doran's schemes and Doran now forced to think more quickly.  Doran and Trystane don't need to die for Dany to land in Dorne.  Doran could have welcomed her without any marriage plot.  

I generally think the TV show is great.  But the Dorne plotline is awful.  And I can't understand why so many tv reviewers and writers don't pick up on the plot inconsistencies etc. here.  

(Don't even get me started on that Bustle article that calls this whole sorry plotline female empowerment - if I ever meet that writer...)

Completely agree with this statement. I guess what bothers me the most about show is the lack of logic. Ellaria and Sand snakes need to cause some conflict and it doesn't matter how, because I guess Dorne isn't important to them and will probably be wiped out eventually so, why not? This makes more bloody, "interesting" story. I don't like those book show comparaisons anymore because clearly they changed everything and it is not the same in any shape or form, so I can't enjoy in that that books give me some extra information about plot or characters that I can include in my expirience as a watcher. What I did love about book Martells is their honor and I didn't get the sence they would go against their own family in such a manner. Yes they were hell bent on revenge, but still they did appear loyal to Doran. It just seems to me that they wanted Sand Snakes in KL so they can do what they are suposed to, and something shiny and shocking that would lead to a new conflict. Huray for cold blooded murdering of your family.

And don't get me on female empowerment. It doesn't have any connection to life itself. I could call empowerment in say Danny's case in season one where she had to find her voice and inner strength and become her own person. Mother of dragons, anyone? I totally chereed for her and all badass women out there. I liked that. Ellaria wasn't abused, or shunned or anything. Even in show terms she seems to be very well accepted into Matell family even if she wasn't married to Oberyn. In their conversation she seems very friendly and intimate with Doran. She didn't have power that she needed to take back. And the only reason I can see anyone following her in Dorne is because writers wanted it to happen.

On 4/25/2016 at 5:39 PM, SkylerWhite said:

I like Dorne. It makes sense in a strange kind of way. 

War will come, Dorne vs. Lannister. But in the show without YG. 

Yes the war will come, but the conflict could be better executed. We knew it was comming in season five, but what they did is illogical. Maybe thats just because I know books and that's why show bothers me. People I know and who only watch show generally say, "Dorne, yeah, what ever, we didn't really see much of them any way, why is Ellaria a problem?". I like that at least someone finds some logic and something likable in Dorne plot. It took me some time to acceptance :)

On 4/25/2016 at 10:01 PM, Neptunium said:

Overall it wasn't a bad episode, but the only part that struck me as particularly bad was the Dornish part. It didn't make much sense, but unlike last season something might actually be happening in Dorne. Let's see if they actually make something from it. I wouldn't mind a lousy set-up a lot less if the plot that follows is good, which remains to be seen.

 

Still, if they wanted Trystane and Doran dead, and the Sand Snakes in charge of Dorne they could have made it a lot better without adding much screentime. If Cersei killed Trystane in a rage and Doran did nothing, then Ellaria's actions would be more realistic. Better yet, if they had the support of the guards they could have confined Doran to a room and ruled in his name.

I could watch that. I like those kind of wish full thinking... But Tris and Doran are deader than dead, and the show must go on ...

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Even the murder of Trystane was dishonourable (apart from the fact that it's kinslaying and he was completely innocent of any wrongdoing). Instead of having a fair fight, one of the Sand Fakes magically teleported behind him and stabbed him the back (or the head, I think).

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