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The Scabbard Of the Morning

Who got shafted worse? Doran Martell or Stannis Baratheon

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That fact that we are debating this says a lot about the state of the show currently...

I would say Doran definitely got shafted more. I would actually say that even Ellaria Sands got shafted more than Stannis as show Stannis at least resembles book Stannis to some degree. Ellaria Sands is a basically a Dusky Cersei(book version) Mark II. 

In terms of looking at it just from the show perspective, lets look at the positive aspects of Stannis' life.

In the Lore and History of Westeros, we basically have an entire chapter on the Greyjoy rebellion devoted to him kicking ass. On the show he gets free sex with one of the hottest woman in the world (as far as he knew), got rid of his annoying pansy brother who isn't fit to rule a 12 course meal, carved through Blackwater like a Juggarnaut, got to burn some guys he didn't like, got to burn more guys he didn't like, completely steamrolled a pack of Wildings, also burned a king he didn't like, got some family time with his daughter, got to kill at least two enemies, went out YOLO style.

Now Doran Martell, Got to be ruler of the most relaxed and liberal of the kingdoms and the head of the only family that beat the Targaryens twice ,err......made his son happy with the marriage to Myrcella? Uhhhh gets to stare at a beautiful garden all day, gets better food than Stannis? Got Ellaria to bend the knee? Hmmmm well his death freed him from the most annoying characters on the show so I guess maybe that counts as a positive....?

Yea, Stannis might have went through more suffering but he also had a lot more glorious and pleasurable moments. Doran was just... well... no words.

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26 minutes ago, Eucratides_Megas said:

Ahem  "I have a duty to my daughter, to the Realm, even to Robert..." 

Completely pales against his interactions with her on the show and the later stuff is him basically bullshitting and justifying his desires seeing how in the books he had little problem abandoning duty to Robert in AGOT.

Cuts need to be made and why the do focus on some stupid stuff we also don't need to hear some sob story about his bird or his every line.  Especially, as said his scenes with Shireen to much more to humanize him.  Honestly, the only line I say they probably should have kept was the cart one and even then I question the sincerity of it.

Quote

"There is no man fitter...then we will make new lords...I will bring justice to Westeros..."

Pretty sure he tells something similar to Davos before the BW.  Which reminds me how they cut Stannis's whole nepotistic appointments rather they had him support Davos from start.

Quote

"Half my army is made of unbelievers. I will have no burnings. Pray harder."

He then proceeds to burn alive three people in the very next chapter he appears.

Quote

So, given all the times he references his daughter

You mean the like around three to five times none of which he expresses any real concern about her as a person?  Stannis in the books is completely cold, distant, and neglectful towards Shireen.  Honestly, all the criticisms that people on Selyse for her parenting fit book Stannis much better.

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7 hours ago, sifth said:

Doran did nothing on the show, kind of like how he is in the books. The only thing we missed out on where seeing all of his stupid plans blow up in his face. I really don't understand how some people consider this guy wise for doing nothing, but to each there own I suppose.

Sometimes the wisest thing to do is to do nothing.

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13 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Completely pales against his interactions with her on the show and the later stuff is him basically bullshitting and justifying his desires seeing how in the books he had little problem abandoning duty to Robert in AGOT.

Cuts need to be made and why the do focus on some stupid stuff we also don't need to hear some sob story about his bird or his every line.  Especially, as said his scenes with Shireen to much more to humanize him.  Honestly, the only line I say they probably should have kept was the cart one and even then I question the sincerity of it.

Pretty sure he tells something similar to Davos before the BW.  Which reminds me how they cut Stannis's whole nepotistic appointments rather they had him support Davos from start.

He then proceeds to burn alive three people in the very next chapter he appears.

You mean the like around three to five times none of which he expresses any real concern about her as a person?  Stannis in the books is completely cold, distant, and neglectful towards Shireen.  Honestly, all the criticisms that people on Selyse for her parenting fit book Stannis much better.

i agree with the other guy. Those are all humanizing moments that the show skipped out on 

the bird speech also shows Stannis' nurturing side and that he's not some religious fanatic

The cart before the horse speech is Stannis telling us that Davos convinced him about what was right. If he was lying then he wouldn't have gone north and GRRM already confirmed that Stannis is a righteous man despite any of his other faults

Also one of Stannis' best moment is actually sending "Arya" to Jon out of gratitude and because he thinks a true king should always repay his debts 

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19 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

You responded to four of his quotes but he has like 12 other ones 

Also one of Stannis' best moment is actually sending "Arya" to Jon out of gratitude and because he thinks a true king should always repay his debts 

Stannis doesn't have Arya/Sansa at anytime on the show nor IIRC he even aware that she is in Winterfell to make plans for that.

I didn't respond to all of his comments as how not all are relevant to show.  For example, show Stannis isn't an atheist which can be taken as a positive or negative I personally feels like it better justifies some of his actions.  Others like the one abut Jon's sister is relevant as I sure that he and Jon were aware of Sansa's fate.  I am assuming the debt deals with the Iron Bank scene which down completely differently in the books.  The final to Massery isn't relevant as Stannis never sends anyone away to hire a mercenary army.

My stance is still there is no need for them to include all of those quotes as none of groundbreaking quotes for the books.  The same as there are quotes by other characters that I enjoy but I don't need seen.  With there only being a few in every book that I find absolutely necessary though they have seemed to screw most of those up to. 

Especially, seeing how they seem to made up for them by making scenes where Stannis and Shireen actually interact and seem to care for each other.

 

edit: When we gotten to the point where POV characters have been silenced much worse and famous lines like "Only Cat" and others have been changed it is hard for me to get worked up about them dropping lines with Stannis talking about pet birds or his faith.

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This reminds of a conversation I was having with a friend recently and we were arguing about which comic book character had it worst when it came to film adaptation. I went with Emma Frost in "First Class" but he destroyed me with Galactus in "Rise of Silver Surfer" because they turned him into a fucking cosmic fart. 

So by that standard, I think you could argue that Ellaria was shafted more than these two because of how unrecognizable her character is in the show. But then again she's so minor in the books that I don't care all that much about her. 

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58 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Stannis doesn't have Arya/Sansa at anytime on the show nor IIRC he even aware that she is in Winterfell to make plans for that.

I didn't respond to all of his comments as how not all are relevant to show.  For example, show Stannis isn't an atheist which can be taken as a positive or negative I personally feels like it better justifies some of his actions.  Others like the one abut Jon's sister is relevant as I sure that he and Jon were aware of Sansa's fate.  I am assuming the debt deals with the Iron Bank scene which down completely differently in the books.  The final to Massery isn't relevant as Stannis never sends anyone away to hire a mercenary army.

My stance is still there is no need for them to include all of those quotes as none of groundbreaking quotes for the books.  The same as there are quotes by other characters that I enjoy but I don't need seen.  With there only being a few in every book that I find absolutely necessary though they have seemed to screw most of those up to. 

Especially, seeing how they seem to made up for them by making scenes where Stannis and Shireen actually interact and seem to care for each other.

 

edit: When we gotten to the point where POV characters have been silenced much worse and famous lines like "Only Cat" and others have been changed it is hard for me to get worked up about them dropping lines with Stannis talking about pet birds or his faith.

Book Stannis isn't really an atheist either. He just doesn't truly worship any gods. As Mel said" the only gods they(Stannis and Jon) truly worship are honor and duty"

anyways as to the rest, there are some important characteristic details that they're completely skimping out on:

I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning… burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?

 

Why is this quote important? It shows that Stannis realizes this is going to kill but goes through with what he's doing because it's the right thing to do in his eyes. His adherence to the law trumps his own life.

They also took out his middle child syndrome which next to his obsession with justice and duty is his second biggest character trait.

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Again them dropping a single quote is hardly character assassination.  They drop different lines all the time and nothing about that quote makes it an absolute necessary part that has to be included.  For Pete's sake we have central POV characters like Catelyn receiving less lines in the season featuring the RW than Shae if IIRC.  

So them not including some quote from Stannis about some vision which he uses to justify his actions (I don't believe he puts duty over his life for a second) or how him being bitter about being a middle child some glaring problem.  Especially, how if they included the latter I am betting many of his fans would complain about how it makes him look bad.

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It has nothing to do with dropping a few lines, and everything to do with failing to convey the characteristics that those lines conveyed about Stannis the character. 

Had they managed to convey it some other way I'd have been fine with it. But what we got was a Stannis that only superficially resemble his book counterpart. 

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4 hours ago, Minsc said:

For Pete's sake we have central POV characters like Catelyn receiving less lines in the season featuring the RW than Shae if IIRC..

Preach, show Catelyn got shafted completely. At least they gave her an awesome last episode which Fairley knocked out of the park. 

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5 hours ago, Miley the Monstrous said:

This reminds of a conversation I was having with a friend recently and we were arguing about which comic book character had it worst when it came to film adaptation. I went with Emma Frost in "First Class" but he destroyed me with Galactus in "Rise of Silver Surfer" because they turned him into a fucking cosmic fart. 

So by that standard, I think you could argue that Ellaria was shafted more than these two because of how unrecognizable her character is in the show. But then again she's so minor in the books that I don't care all that much about her. 

Ellaria is important in her own very small way: she is actually the whole voice of reason who speaks out against revenge: 

"Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him. I have four daughters, I remind you. Your sisters. My Elia is fourteen, almost a woman. Obella is twelve, on the brink of maidenhood. They worship you, as Dorea and Loreza worship them. If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end?" Ellaria Sand laid her hand on the Mountain's head. "I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?"

And she is right in the fact revenge is a vicious circle. And she is not really important in as who she is but rather the fact she represents the voice against revenge. (And you can say the Sandsnakes represent the voice for revenge)

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47 minutes ago, Mark Antony said:

Preach, show Catelyn got shafted completely. At least they gave her an awesome last episode which Fairley knocked out of the park. 

And the fact Deadpan got the nomination over Fairley that year was utter horseshit

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7 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Sometimes the wisest thing to do is to do nothing.

 

I call that line of thinking craven. Fortune favors the bold.

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8 hours ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

After the final scene in this episode, I'd say Stannis was shafted beyond belief and the logic of reason.

Totally agree.;) But they built his character up for 5 seasons only to kill him off in the span of 15 minutes and almost as an afterthought. Doran only got about as much screentime as it took to kill off Stannis and he basically sat there and he was allowed to get killed. To me, Stannis got it worse because he was a main character and Doran seemed like a throwaway.

IDK, I was sort of pissed how they handled Stannis' demise and I wasn't even really a fan of the character, but Doran's death pissed me off because of the utter lack of logic used to justify it. Ehh, maybe they equally got shafted.

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On 2016. 04. 25. at 1:35 PM, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

After last season, I didn't think it was possible for a character to get shafted worse than Stannis was. But D&D has done it. Now I think Doran Martel can give Stannis a run for his money.  I'm interested in what the rest of you think. So who got shafted worse, Stannis or Doran?

So, as someone who only read the first book. I'm assuming a tiny bit more happens in Dorn than it did in the series?

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11 hours ago, Jedi Renee said:

 

Agree that he could be alive the whole thing is too strange. 

Yes Doran didn't get a chance. . But stannis still got butchered too in a more drawn out fashion. 

Agree with all of this except the part about nor looking forward to see davos. I'm disappointed he dosnt seem upset about Stannis and shireen buthe that may unfold in time .

 

On 26. 4. 2016 at 0:48 PM, SevasTra82 said:

I still find it odd they that killed Stannis off-screen.  They could have at least shown his head getting lopped off or something.

Makes me wonder....

 

On 26. 4. 2016 at 10:03 AM, matsuki said:

Definitely...but we didn't see his head roll. (Not yet at least) Not too often the show shies away from that mess....and then there's the idea that another life is needed to pay for Jon's second life. Maybe not too tinfoil if you consider the actor's comments didn't come out until after season 6 was shot....

Let it go people. Everybody confirmed it just like with Jon I know and unlike Jon. He's got no role to play any longer. What would he do? Night's Watch is done one way or the other. If not killed by Wildlings, then by White Walkers, serving someone is so unlike Stannis. Besides Brienne would've taken him with her as valuable prisoner and not letting him go. Actually I'm happy Stannis is no longer on the show and butchery is done.

 

.

Doran but let's not forget Areo Hotah that dude is seriously badass fighter and he gets killed like that? Nice job D&D, Dorne is screwed beyond any redemption. If Oberyn could saw this, he would be really dissapointed.

 

 

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Neither of them got shafted, they both got what they deserved. Doran for taking years to plot his revenge which has all come to naught and so it was entirely in character for the tempestuous Sandsnakes to kill him for his failures and thus for shaming Dorne by seemingly doing nothing.

And Stannis cowardly murdered, not killed fairly in battle, his own brother so he's a pure kinslayer, and Brienne has been promising his death since season 2 and altho half this forum always dismissed Brienne and Stannis' crime, she has done what she said she would and served Stannis with justice. The burning of Shireen is really incidental, and tho on the surface seems despicable it was a strategic decision as he knows about the White Walker threat and so he had to act but again he failed in battle and in doing so presented Brienne with her opportunity.

Failure, more than immorality, has consequences in the medieval world. If they both were successful in attaining their goals then yes they could be said to have been shafted, but both have emerged as terrible failures and as broken, defeated men.

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Is it possible that Millisandre's intention from the beginning was to wipe out the Baratheon blood-line? I was thinking about this earlier. Maybe she tells Davos this before she reveals who Jon really is and resurrects him.

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