'I choose violence'

[Rhaechyll Targaryen]

True point that if Joffrey had been around, the High Sparrow would have been quickly dealt with last season in gruesome fashion. Joffrey would have been fine with Loras being taken away for being a so-called deviant but with Margaery, Joffrey would have taken it personally that the HS was trying to take away one of his toys and he would have had the KG handle it right then and there. Then they'd have been dealing with the fall out of attacking a so-called holy man. 

It would have been messy either way but I agree that Joffrey would have nipped the High Sparrow situation in the bud and probably would have gotten a kick out of torturing his cousin Lancel. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

10 hours ago, Rhaechyll Targaryen said:

True point that if Joffrey had been around, the High Sparrow would have been quickly dealt with last season in gruesome fashion. Joffrey would have been fine with Loras being taken away for being a so-called deviant but with Margaery, Joffrey would have taken it personally that the HS was trying to take away one of his toys and he would have had the KG handle it right then and there. Then they'd have been dealing with the fall out of attacking a so-called holy man. 

It would have been messy either way but I agree that Joffrey would have nipped the High Sparrow situation in the bud and probably would have gotten a kick out of torturing his cousin Lancel. 

"Kill Them !, Kill Them All !  Same with Tywin. Zero Tollerance.

[Barrystan the Bald]

On 30 April 2016 at 2:42 AM, Tyrosh said:

That's one of the trademarks of this remarkable show. Characters you may dislike at first, or feel indifferent about (to say it least), you may end up rooting for.
Wild-lings - at first we see them through the pov of people south of the wall (and their limited beliefs). Then via Jon Snow we get to know them, and maybe like them (I did).
NW - at first we think of them as that cool ancient special military formation. However, later on, when JS enters wild-ling village for the 1st time, (when he stares at the giant), by reaction of the kids you can see - "crows" are classic villains, even dressed all in black. What to even say after this latest episode - NW is more like towards the other end of the spectrum.
Jamie Lannister, at first appears as arrogant prick, Hound as Joffrey's bodyguard and so on.

Episodes with Cersei and High Sparrow are the pinnacle of the above paradox. Cersei of all people, they'll never top it. I have to admit, at one point I told my wife - if Joffrey was there he would wipe the floor with this f-ck.

Cersei in-prisoned, and no-one there to take her out (by her own doing, for the most part); pure, righteous and judgmental HS and his followers (and among them, Lancel of all people) - that's the show. All in details. Not so much about the final outcome, but how they tell the story.

Finally, who knows, I wouldn't be surprised if Danny ends up being an anti-hero. Reversed path - She starts as "innocence" and in extremely difficult environment, may end up burning alive her enemies big time - All rulers are rather buchers or meat.

Agree with all of this. The other thing I would say is that in the vast majority of cases, I can completely empathise with the character and understand why they react in the way they do. Jamie is chastised for being the 'Kingslayer' - but faced with someone willing to burn an entire city, who wouldn't have done the same? Tyrion's experience, especially in season 4 is brilliant as well. Imagine being accused of killing your nephew and being hung out to dry by your entire family, and then when you escape, you find your lover in your fathers bed. It's completely natural understand why he reacted in the way he did. Especially in this universe where violence is an everyday occurrence anyway. We will have to wait to see what happens in Cersei's story but damn, what she was put through at the back end of last season would make anyone want to wipe the floor with these bigots of the faith. 

[SerMixalot]

I'm curious, why do Show Only people think Cersei is a villain? Her "evil" deeds were as follows:

1. Betraying Ned: But he had made it clear he was going to tell Robert about the Twincest

2. Margery Trial: Margery was literally committing pedophilia with her child. A full grown woman manipulating a child.  Seems like a method of self defense

3. Sansa: She really didn't act overtly evil towards her, the evil was from Jofferey, though she did give her some harsh advice, but from Cersei's perspective was reasonable

So what has Cersei done to be considered a villain

 

[Barrystan the Bald]

I'm not necessarily saying she's a villain - I'm saying she's neither a villain nor a hero. Some of the 'evil' things she has done include:

 

1. She had Lady killed despite it being Nymeria that attacked Joffrey.

 

2. Having Robert killed (albeit indirectly by making him drink too much)

 

3. She is supposedly massively in love with Jamie but when he is absent she can't go more than 5 minutes without bedding a different relative.

 

4. She may have been protecting Tommen by having Margery arrested - but what exactly had Margery done wrong? It may have been an inappropriate relationship by our standards, but remember this story is set in a radically different world to our own.

 

All of this really highlights the massive grey areas that exist in ASOIAF. My response to your post isn't meant to say 'Im right and you're wrong'. It is simply meant to show that any one of us can come down on completely different sides when it comes to characters like Cersei. And that is a massive compliment to this show.

[DireDoodle]

4 hours ago, SerMixalot said:

I'm curious, why do Show Only people think Cersei is a villain? Her "evil" deeds were as follows:

1. Betraying Ned: But he had made it clear he was going to tell Robert about the Twincest

2. Margery Trial: Margery was literally committing pedophilia with her child. A full grown woman manipulating a child.  Seems like a method of self defense

3. Sansa: She really didn't act overtly evil towards her, the evil was from Jofferey, though she did give her some harsh advice, but from Cersei's perspective was reasonable

So what has Cersei done to be considered a villain

 

A lifetime of physical and mental abuse to Tyrion

Goading Jamie into the Kings Guard.  Ruining his life.  

Pushing Melara down a well.

Incest with her brother.

Tries to have Arya's hand cut off.

Has Lady killed for basically no reason.

Turns a blind eye to Joffrey's torture, mutilation, and murder.

I would say exceptional cruelty to, what, a 15 y.o. Sansa.

Making Jamie kill Bran.

Murder of who knows how many dwarves.

Killing Robert's bastards

etc

etc

etc

Seems clear that the show intends for us to think her quite villainous.  No idea about the books.

 

[Wall Flower]

22 minutes ago, DireDoodle said:

A lifetime of physical and mental abuse to Tyrion

Goading Jamie into the Kings Guard.  Ruining his life.  

Pushing Melara down a well.

Incest with her brother.

Tries to have Arya's hand cut off.

Has Lady killed for basically no reason.

Turns a blind eye to Joffrey's torture, mutilation, and murder.

I would say exceptional cruelty to, what, a 15 y.o. Sansa.

Making Jamie kill Bran.

Murder of who knows how many dwarves.

Killing Robert's bastards

etc

etc

etc

Seems clear that the show intends for us to think her quite villainous.  No idea about the books.

 

Joffrey killed the bastards on the show and showCersei seemed unable to control Joffrey (who was older on the show), rather than just being unwilling to, as in the books. She even expressed dismay at his behaviour on the show. Lancel is the only person that she's betrayed   Jaime with on the show and that was so long ago I barely remember it. I feel like Cersei has become more and more sympathetic as the seasons have gone on and more bad things have happened to her. It does sound like fiery, villainous Cersei may be back this season, though.

Not sure I agree that Cersei 'made Jaime push Bran' in either the book or the show.

 

[DireDoodle]

36 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

I feel like Cersei has become more and more sympathetic as the seasons have gone on and more bad things have happened to her. It does sound like fiery, villainous Cersei may be back this season, though.

Agree

Not sure I agree that Cersei 'made Jaime push Bran' in either the book or the show.

Seems like Jamie pretty much blew it off, but Cersei insisted that he would tell.  Splitting hairs maybe.  Jamie didn't need much encouragement for sure.