6x01: D & D cleaning up after themselves

[Lord Wraith]

1 hour ago, King Onion Knight said:

Can D&D just send Super Brienne and Ramsay and his 20 good men to Dorne so they can all kill each other off and really clean up after themselves

No I am sure that Ellaria only needs 20 good women to destroy House Lannister. Then she can join with Ramsay and his 20 good men to conquer Westeros. The Song of Snow and Sand is almost complete.

[Fredwin]

Just now, Ingelheim said:

 

Without the whole Aegon-Arianne thing, D&D needed Dorne to revolt against the Lannisters. They chose this way. It's plainly wrong if you ask me. Dorne should have been cut out. It's even clearer now.

You're entirely correct. I think it's funny considering this is the way I thought GRRM himself should have handled things. Have the Martells and the Lannisters duke it out considering it's been building up to that for ages. Instead GRRM threw Deus Ex Aegona into the mix, but Aegon is actually the way the show should have gone. All the scenes where he was present in the book were already featured on the show, and could have been made that much better using the time spent on Dorne. Oh well.

Just think about it, all they would have needed to do was flesh out two minor characters and bam, the Lannisters would have had the enemy their arc demands. Maybe not even two characters, Jorah was already given the role of having greyscale, maybe have him fill in for Jon Connington somehow too. Bravos was already established as providing the coin for sellswords. Not a large leap for the audience. Compare that to trying to build Dorne and make it seem like a real place...

[joaozinm]

The conversation between ramsay and roose bolton kind of prooves OP's point. Roose tries to explain the situation where 20 good man destroy all the hope of the entiry army by listing circunstances.    An explanation that i didnt buy.

[Mr Smith]

1 hour ago, Dany's Golden Fleece said:

So who the hell is ruling Dorne now? Please don't tell me its a bsatard women with her three bastard daughters.  No way the Lords of Dorne would go for this.  I like the show, but they messed Dorne up royally.

The point I was making is that it doesn't really matter. If I'm correct, yesterday's episode was about clearing up problems from last season and making sure they don't have to worry about Dorne anymore. Personally, I'm just going to pretend it never happened.

[Lord Martin]

Wouldn't it be pretty neat and clean for UnGregor to simply kill Obara and Nym during an attempt on Cersei and/or Tommen?  Sort of fitting too, killed by the same "man" who killed their father.

Then Dorne can become embroiled in its own civil war which everyone else can mention in passing.  

[Fredwin]

Just now, Lord Martin said:

Wouldn't it be pretty neat and clean for UnGregor to simply kill Obara and Nym during an attempt on Cersei and/or Tommen?  Sort of fitting too, killed by the same "man" who killed their father.

Then Dorne can become embroiled in its own civil war which everyone else can mention in passing.  

I won't be surprised it it does happen. The sandsnakes are going to quickly hit their plot beats and exit very quickly. 

[Ingelheim]

42 minutes ago, Fredwin said:

You're entirely correct. I think it's funny considering this is the way I thought GRRM himself should have handled things. Have the Martells and the Lannisters duke it out considering it's been building up to that for ages. Instead GRRM threw Deus Ex Aegona into the mix, but Aegon is actually the way the show should have gone. All the scenes where he was present in the book were already featured on the show, and could have been made that much better using the time spent on Dorne. Oh well.

Just think about it, all they would have needed to do was flesh out two minor characters and bam, the Lannisters would have had the enemy their arc demands. Maybe not even two characters, Jorah was already given the role of having greyscale, maybe have him fill in for Jon Connington somehow too. Bravos was already established as providing the coin for sellswords. Not a large leap for the audience. Compare that to trying to build Dorne and make it seem like a real place...

I wouldn't have done Dorne. With or without Aegon. It's just too much screentime for the Show. If it had 12-13 episodes per season, 1 full hour each (not like the 50-55 we are actually getting), yes, but it doesn't.

But, yes. If Dorne must be on the show, doing it without Aegon is stupid.

[Mr Smith]

4 hours ago, Ingelheim said:

Nah, I don't really think so. As soon as they killed Myrcella, I knew this kind of shit was going to happen. Maybe killing Doran this early is something new, but Doran was going to get killed this season anyways, I'm confident on that.

Without the whole Aegon-Arianne thing, D&D needed Dorne to revolt against the Lannisters. They chose this way. It's plainly wrong if you ask me. Dorne should have been cut out. It's even clearer now.

Along with Jaime after season 3, it's my biggest complaint with D&D.

I agree, it should never have been included, but given how much of a drag on the ticket it was, I'll take anything that removes it from the equation.

I feel you on the problems with Jaime, but my biggest issues with D & D are Tyrion whitewashing and Sansa's season 5.

[Lord of Brewtown]

7 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Dorne wasn't cleaning up after themselves. It was like getting rid of all the furniture in your living room, leaving only the glaring dog shit in the middle of the room, and then heaping even more shit on top of that. 

That sums it up.  They made things even worse.  

They never should have included Dorne if they were going to do this.  

If they really felt that they needed Dorne in order to have a Lannister vs Martell conflict, they chose the wrong characters to include vs write out.  They really could have fairly easily omitted the Sand Snakes, and included Arianne instead.  Wouldn't have had to change Ellaria's personality completely that way.  

 

 

[Ingelheim]

1 minute ago, Mr Smith said:

I agree, it should never have been included, but given how much of a drag on the ticket it was, I'll take anything that removes it from the equation.

I feel you on the problems with Jaime, but my biggest issues with D & D are Tyrion whitewashing and Sansa's season 5.

The thing here is...most people are assuming we are not going to see much of Dorne after this. I'm sorry, but I don't think this will happen. 

You have two Sand Snakes on KL (when the books only have one), and Ellaria and the best Sand Snake (in terms of acting, the youngest one, don't know her name) on Dorne. Sure, we won't stay much there, but I'm confident we'll see at least 3-4 more scenes of Dorne. Of Dorne itself. The Sand Snakes who killed Trystane may have screentime on the KL storyline.

 

I understood the hate that Sansa's season 5 had. D&D wanted her there, as will happen on TWOW, but I understand the hate. I'm one of those few who liked the storyline, mainly because I love Sophie Turner and last year she did great.

[Mr Smith]

8 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

The thing here is...most people are assuming we are not going to see much of Dorne after this. I'm sorry, but I don't think this will happen. 

You have two Sand Snakes on KL (when the books only have one), and Ellaria and the best Sand Snake (in terms of acting, the youngest one, don't know her name) on Dorne. Sure, we won't stay much there, but I'm confident we'll see at least 3-4 more scenes of Dorne. Of Dorne itself. The Sand Snakes who killed Trystane may have screentime on the KL storyline.

 

I understood the hate that Sansa's season 5 had. D&D wanted her there, as will happen on TWOW, but I understand the hate. I'm one of those few who liked the storyline, mainly because I love Sophie Turner and last year she did great.

Hmmm, well I really hope you're wrong. I guess I could live with a couple more scenes, as long as they kill them off relatively quickly.

I'm a big fan of Sophie Turner as well, but my issue with her Season 5 was more that they just shoehorned her into someone else's role, rather than actually give her something real to do in the North. There was a real opportunity there for her to play Ramsay against Myranda, and maybe win the respect of some northern lords in the meantime. Instead she spent most of her time either getting victimised or snarking Ramsay. It was very poor writing IMO.

[Pies are coming]

5 hours ago, Chebyshov said:

Dany's fleet went up in smoke, resolving that issue with a single stroke! Why the hell was Daario given that throwaway line about the navy last year? ¯\_(シ)_/¯ And how fun for Mel and Davos that they've both forgotten about Stannis (and Davos doesn't care about Mel burning Shireen?)!

Davos doesn't know Mel burnt Shireen, all he knows is that Shireen is dead, and it's safe to assume he thinks the Boltons' killed her. He should acknowledge her death at some point, though.

36 minutes ago, Lord of Brewtown said:

That sums it up.  They made things even worse.  

They never should have included Dorne if they were going to do this.  

If they really felt that they needed Dorne in order to have a Lannister vs Martell conflict, they chose the wrong characters to include vs write out.  They really could have fairly easily omitted the Sand Snakes, and included Arianne instead.  Wouldn't have had to change Ellaria's personality completely that way. 

Yep. Have Arianne - Doran's daughter and heir - accompany Oberyn to King's Landing as a loving niece. They wouldn't have sex with one another but you can still show them in brothels while each of them do their thing with different people.

Then Arianne, outraged at Oberyn's death and Doran's passivity, tries to get revenge against Myrcella by some plot (maybe like the books), but Jaime&Bronn advert it without anyone noticing Arianne was trying to get her killed. Doran sends Myrcella away, Arianne poisons her.

Cue season 6, Doran and Arianne get in conflict (say, Doran realizes Arianne wanted to kill Myrcella early on and it's clear he doesn't yet know Myrcella has died in the boat) and Arianne secretly poisons him to save her own hide. Ta-da! Arianne is the ruler of Dorne and Cersei will want payback.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

5 hours ago, Florina Laufeyson said:

Pretty much. After sleeping on it, it dawned on me that the OP has a point. They fucking nuked Dorne. They nuked it so hard, because they fucked it up so bad, they cant repair it. The only way to repair that plot is to bring the Griffs into play, and without Arianne, that would have a very difficult time working. They seem to have no intention of including the Aegon/Faegon plot into the show. Im not sure they are going to even bother building tension between Dorne and Dany. 

Theres nothing they can do. They wrote themselves into such a shit corner, they had to literally nuke it. I wouldnt be surprised if the Sand Snakes and Ellaria end up showing up a little later on, only to get killed.

Show Dorne can't be repaired.  Just leave Arianne and the Griffs out, and kill the rest.  It's euthanasia more than murder.

Frankenmountain will need to get some killing in, because what use is a Necro-Golem made out of the biggest most violent in the recent history of the country if he doesn't brutally murder some folks?

Plus, I'm sure in D&D's mind, the most monsterously evil thing someone could do is kill a nice pair of tits and/or a bad pussy (oh and the woman attached to them, I guess) so when Ser Robert Strong needs to move back up in the Evil Asshole standings, that's his avenue.

 

[Tadco26]

1 hour ago, Mr Smith said:

The point I was making is that it doesn't really matter. If I'm correct, yesterday's episode was about clearing up problems from last season and making sure they don't have to worry about Dorne anymore. Personally, I'm just going to pretend it never happened.

I think they are setting up significantly more Sand Snake centered Dorne plot lines, and in no way removing Dorne from the story.

[Morna The Maid]

No, Ingelheim, you don't understand the hate. The hate from this book fan comes from the fact that the way the Sansa Ep 7 plot was written was a deliberate insult to book fans, one among dozens so far on this show. The eerie similarities in some things and differences in others seem to confirm this.)

In the books, it is not Sansa who is forced to marry Ramsey but Sansa's friend Jeyne Poole, a character who was actually seen on the show, in the pilot episode no less,  back in Season 1. (She's the cute little thing who cleans Sansa up after Arya throws food at her in the banquet scene.  I think she actually had a line or two too.) Book 5, ADWD, came out during Season 1 or right after, so D/D clearly had an advance copy where they knew about this character and therefore wrote her into the series.

IN ADWD, Jeyne was passed off as Arya by the Lannisters, pimped out by them to give the Boltons sway over the Stark loyalists, just as LF pimped Sansa out in the series. (Actually Jeyne was more of a sacrificial lamb, she was not of the royalty so nobody really cared what happened to her, which makes what happened to Sansa more infuriating, since she is treated the same way.) On the wedding night, Ramsey has Theon give her away and then orders him as witness to the consummation. He cuts Jeyne's dress off in the back with a dagger; in the show he simply tears it open down the back. He orders Jeyne naked on to the bed and then jams his finger up inside her and complains that she is "dry as an old bone", and then slaps her face. He then orders Theon to perform oral sex on her to "get her ready": "Reek bent to his task", and there the chapter ends. Later on, in another chapter, it is insinuated that Reek's active role in the wedding night did not end there. Just as in the show, it is insinuated that Jeyne is locked in her room by Ramsey, forbidden to leave, and Reek finds her crying in her nightgown in the bedroom in a bedraggled state that exactly mirrors a scene with Sansa in the show. (But somehow Sophie looks sexy in a nightie and has lip gloss on.) In a later chapter of ADWD, some time has passed, and Jeyne is terrified even of Reek and says "I'll do anything he wants, with him or...or with his dogs..." among other things, implying that Dave and Dan actually toned down the extent of Ramsey's perfidy. (I wonder what Sophie Turner would think if she had read the book and knew that Ramsey Bolton made his bride have sex with his dogs.)

 

The way these scenes are shot, and carefully selected details from the book in Sansa's scenes from her wedding ceremony on, is too eerily close to the fate of poor Jeyne Poole in the book and suggests a personal dislike of the character on the part of D/D that is very disturbing. For them to then cherry pick details and omit others, and then try to tone down what we see onscreen for the sake of "not being too shocking" or "Not being insulting to Sophie" while clearly reveling in her scripted fate by making her situation too close to Jeyne's, sends a message to book fans that makes me hate them even more.

[Mr Smith]

20 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

I think they are setting up significantly more Sand Snake centered Dorne plot lines, and in no way removing Dorne from the story.

I really, really don't think they're that foolish.

[Tadco26]

Why not?  If they wanted to remove Dorne from the story line they don't have them kill off Myrcella.  They have Myrcella get back safely and die some other way later.  Really it's impossible to have Dorne murder Myrcella and their story line be over.  Especially when they just put a revenge hungry party in charge of Dorne rather than one that wants peace with the Lannisters.  Now they are just going to just disappear and not go to war?  I think D&D believe they are writing good stuff with this Dorne story line.  Nobody purposely writes bad scripts, if it's bad, it's because they don't know it's bad.

[Reznak mo Reznak]

17 minutes ago, Morna The Maid said:

No, Ingelheim, you don't understand the hate. The hate from this book fan comes from the fact that the way the Sansa Ep 7 plot was written was a deliberate insult to book fans, one among dozens so far on this show. The eerie similarities in some things and differences in others seem to confirm this.)

In the books, it is not Sansa who is forced to marry Ramsey but Sansa's friend Jeyne Poole, a character who was actually seen on the show, in the pilot episode no less,  back in Season 1. (She's the cute little thing who cleans Sansa up after Arya throws food at her in the banquet scene.  I think she actually had a line or two too.) Book 5, ADWD, came out during Season 1 or right after, so D/D clearly had an advance copy where they knew about this character and therefore wrote her into the series.

IN ADWD, Jeyne was passed off as Arya by the Lannisters, pimped out by them to give the Boltons sway over the Stark loyalists, just as LF pimped Sansa out in the series. (Actually Jeyne was more of a sacrificial lamb, she was not of the royalty so nobody really cared what happened to her, which makes what happened to Sansa more infuriating, since she is treated the same way.) On the wedding night, Ramsey has Theon give her away and then orders him as witness to the consummation. He cuts Jeyne's dress off in the back with a dagger; in the show he simply tears it open down the back. He orders Jeyne naked on to the bed and then jams his finger up inside her and complains that she is "dry as an old bone", and then slaps her face. He then orders Theon to perform oral sex on her to "get her ready": "Reek bent to his task", and there the chapter ends. Later on, in another chapter, it is insinuated that Reek's active role in the wedding night did not end there. Just as in the show, it is insinuated that Jeyne is locked in her room by Ramsey, forbidden to leave, and Reek finds her crying in her nightgown in the bedroom in a bedraggled state that exactly mirrors a scene with Sansa in the show. (But somehow Sophie looks sexy in a nightie and has lip gloss on.) In a later chapter of ADWD, some time has passed, and Jeyne is terrified even of Reek and says "I'll do anything he wants, with him or...or with his dogs..." among other things, implying that Dave and Dan actually toned down the extent of Ramsey's perfidy. (I wonder what Sophie Turner would think if she had read the book and knew that Ramsey Bolton made his bride have sex with his dogs.)

 

The way these scenes are shot, and carefully selected details from the book in Sansa's scenes from her wedding ceremony on, is too eerily close to the fate of poor Jeyne Poole in the book and suggests a personal dislike of the character on the part of D/D that is very disturbing. For them to then cherry pick details and omit others, and then try to tone down what we see onscreen for the sake of "not being too shocking" or "Not being insulting to Sophie" while clearly reveling in her scripted fate by making her situation too close to Jeyne's, sends a message to book fans that makes me hate them even more.

Man... I haven't been on this site in a while because the anger level is just too much. And it certainly hasn't changed! Deliberate insult to fans? Subbing Sansa for fake Arya because they hate the Sansa character (hint: its just an efficient way of keeping the Bolton's northern story around and not having to introduce Jeyne Poole)? If people here are so willing to make such thoughtless and reactionary judgment calls on the showrunners and the show I don't know why you even watch it. But I guarantee you that no one is trying to deliberately poke the fans (you do it to yourselves) or punishing a fictional character.

 

 And I hate to break it to anyone who thinks otherwise, but there is no way the show is done with Dorne. The plot is just a shortcut to Dorne entering the war.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

3 minutes ago, Reznak mo Reznak said:

Man... I haven't been on this site in a while because the anger level is just too much. And it certainly hasn't changed! Deliberate insult to fans? Subbing Sansa for fake Arya because they hate the Sansa character (hint: its just an efficient way of keeping the Bolton's northern story around and not having to introduce Jeyne Poole)? If people here are so willing to make such thoughtless and reactionary judgment calls on the showrunners and the show I don't know why you even watch it. But I guarantee you that no one is trying to deliberately poke the fans (you do it to yourselves) or punishing a fictional character.

 

 And I hate to break it to anyone who thinks otherwise, but there is no way the show is done with Dorne. The plot is just a shortcut to Dorne entering the war.

There was no real need for Sansa to be put in that position. 

Betroth her to Sweetrobin if you need her to lead the Vale army 

[hallam]

17 minutes ago, Reznak mo Reznak said:

And I hate to break it to anyone who thinks otherwise, but there is no way the show is done with Dorne. The plot is just a shortcut to Dorne entering the war.

I suspect the show is done in Dorne though. The sandsnakes will provide Cersei with another protagonist.

The book Dorne plot is clearly a lot more elaborate. But they neither need nor want fake Aegon because they don't want Jon to change his looks. So no Mance/Rattleshirt glamour and no fake Aegon/Jon glamour either.