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Mr Smith

6x01: D & D cleaning up after themselves

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7 hours ago, RUSSELL BELL said:

Dorne isn't relevant to the story anymore without the diplomacy of Doran and Trystane being dead means that there is no connection to the rest of the KL story either. I definitely think we won't be seeing anymore of Dorne because there really isn't that much to show. But Dorne was a mess that can't really be repaired. 

Dorne may never have been relevant to the story, in books or show and the show has just shed light on it.

The main story elements are the Stark kids, the Lannisters, Dany and her dragons and Westeros (mainly the wall, the walkers and the IT). Everything that does not tie into these things is excess and needs to be trimmed.

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14 minutes ago, ummester said:

Dorne may never have been relevant to the story, in books or show and the show has just shed light on it.

The main story elements are the Stark kids, the Lannisters, Dany and her dragons and Westeros (mainly the wall, the walkers and the IT). Everything that does not tie into these things is excess and needs to be trimmed.

 

I suspect Dorne has some impact but it isn't a major part. Pure speculation but a Dornish army with fAegon might blockage Kings Landing and Cersi burns the place down trying to fight it. Or Dorne joins with Dany to give her a big enough army.

But it's all stuff that could be done through off page plot and exposition. The show should have just skipped it and had one throw away line, "Oh's noes, Dorne is joing Dany because of Oberon" or "Oh's noes, Dorne just invaded to get revenge." You don't need to waste plot time on it. Certainly would have been better than the abortion we got.

I just hope the show is done with Dorne.

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Dorne will send their armies into war against the Lannisters before the season is out, that was on the agenda and they got rid of peacenik Doran and Prince Fabio to get it done. Going back to last year, Dorne is a big disapointment but agreed with the op, cleanup and bye bye. Kinda funny though, Capt Hotah was/is a POV in the books and is gone, first one of those to die this season, probably not the last either.

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18 minutes ago, ummester said:

Dorne may never have been relevant to the story, in books or show and the show has just shed light on it.

The main story elements are the Stark kids, the Lannisters, Dany and her dragons and Westeros (mainly the wall, the walkers and the IT). Everything that does not tie into these things is excess and needs to be trimmed.

If that was true it would be completely foolish to include Dorne at all.  They are already limited in cast and screen time, so it should have been cut from the start if that was the case.  Most likely Dorne plays a very important role, but D&D either didn't like the books version, or decided it was too long or complex, so they made this alternate story.  I'm sure in their minds it's all Emmy Award winning writing.  It's not like they are intentionally writing terrible scenes, in their minds I'm sure Doran's death is an epic story of betrayal on par with the Red Wedding.

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If Dorne sends their armies against the Lannisters later they will be massacred. Dorne is able to repel attacks because of their unique land barriers and guerilla warfare. Dorne, alone, does not have the strength to mount an offense. Doran Martell in the books knows this, which is why he does not act irrationally and just send out his troops against the Lannisters.

It is not a clean up. They just created more of a mess and as much as I hope this storyline just disappears in the same black hole Gendry rowed himself into, I have a feeling it's not done and it's just going to make even less sense than it already does now.

 

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30 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

If that was true it would be completely foolish to include Dorne at all.  They are already limited in cast and screen time, so it should have been cut from the start if that was the case.  Most likely Dorne plays a very important role, but D&D either didn't like the books version, or decided it was too long or complex, so they made this alternate story.  I'm sure in their minds it's all Emmy Award winning writing.  It's not like they are intentionally writing terrible scenes, in their minds I'm sure Doran's death is an epic story of betrayal on par with the Red Wedding.

Past statements from the D&D indicate that they were going to skip Dorne until they thought up sending Jamie to Dorne instead of riverlands--so they merged plot lines to save time. Which means that they were okay with skipping Dorne at some point. I think they just got caught up in the Oberyon hype from S4 and thought "wouldn't it be cool to do Sandsnakes and Dorne, the people will love it!" And now that it sucked they are going to Nikki and Paulo* it.

* Lost spoilers -- A term for brutally murdering off really unpopular new characters.

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1 hour ago, Desert Fox said:

I suspect Dorne has some impact but it isn't a major part. Pure speculation but a Dornish army with fAegon might blockage Kings Landing and Cersi burns the place down trying to fight it. Or Dorne joins with Dany to give her a big enough army.

But it's all stuff that could be done through off page plot and exposition. The show should have just skipped it and had one throw away line, "Oh's noes, Dorne is joing Dany because of Oberon" or "Oh's noes, Dorne just invaded to get revenge." You don't need to waste plot time on it. Certainly would have been better than the abortion we got.

I just hope the show is done with Dorne.

Or the coup in Dorne puts paid to fake Aegon's invasion as the support he expects fails to materialize.

51 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Dorne will send their armies into war against the Lannisters before the season is out, that was on the agenda and they got rid of peacenik Doran and Prince Fabio to get it done. Going back to last year, Dorne is a big disapointment but agreed with the op, cleanup and bye bye. Kinda funny though, Capt Hotah was/is a POV in the books and is gone, first one of those to die this season, probably not the last either.

I didn't think much of the book Dorne plot. The sandsnakes turned out pretty much as I expected.

2 minutes ago, Desert Fox said:

Past statements from the D&D indicate that they were going to skip Dorne until they thought up sending Jamie to Dorne instead of riverlands--so they merged plot lines to save time. Which means that they were okay with skipping Dorne at some point. I think they just got caught up in the Oberyon hype from S4 and thought "wouldn't it be cool to do Sandsnakes and Dorne, the people will love it!" And now that it sucked they are going to Nikki and Paulo* it.

* Lost spoilers -- A term for brutally murdering off really unpopular new characters.

I suspect a large part of the reason for doing Dorne was cost. The sets are lavish but not extensive. The action is all in Doran's palace, the pier. Can be tacked on to their shoot in Spain or wherever. The riverlands would cost a lot more and would look very much like the wall.

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The assassinations at the beginning of season 6 were too abrupt and suggested more unwanted Dorne crap to come in season 6.

I would have preferred for it to have been resolved with Cersei asking for Ellaria's head, Doran sends said head in box.  Done.  Move on to more interesting characters and storylines.

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Sorry about that, this is not the Rant thread, that was more of a rant post. FYI I am a book reader but I am NOT a book snob or purist, far from it. In fact I'd have a lot of fun with an alternate universe and would go along for the ride, as long as it is well-written, well-acted, a coherent and engaging story in the spirit of the origional, that unfolds in a leisurely organic way that feels as if it was thought out and not done on the wing in response to social media trends (Dorne).

As for my anger, it comes from the fact that literally every character in ASOIAF as shown in the show is personality and motives-wise the exact OPPOSITE of their book self. Good people are bad and bad good, the show has no sublelty. With the possible exceptions of Varys, Davos, Sandor, Tommen and Bran and Gilly. That and some very disturbing and unsavory aspects of the production of GOT that are slowly coming to light in spite of everything the showrunners have done to shut it up...those keeping quiet, you can see a lack of enthusiasm for their roles...but I said this wasn't the negative thread, (actually the Ranters are playing  pure comedy gold with this episode, I'm read some *hilarious* reviews).

I'll stop now.

I don't know if we can be spoiled here, so SPOILERS.....

Speaking of unneeded characters, here we are getting the Ironborn back starting next Episode, who  we last saw what? 3 seasons ago? but unlike Dorne, they have a much more interesting role to play. We could have just ditched Dorne,  (I mean Oberyn in KL was enough!) and sent Jamie to the Riverlands instead, where we could have, you know, find out what happened after the RW, and kept Jamie on track with his Brienne arc frpm season 3, while at the same time slowly developing Asha (yara) in her faux Victarion arc over 2 or 3 seasons instead of rushing back in at this late date, which is going to look ridiculous!

I mean when we last saw Balon,  he was looking into a box containing Theon's Family Jewel. Yara brought it to him as a Name Day present from Ramsey (*snark*, that's what you get for shopping at your friendly neighborhood Hallmark, the selection of cards on Pyke just sux this year. ) Now D/D expect the audience to just remember who he is 3 seasons later without a word!

 

And it gets better folks! At least the Greyjoy stuff is from the books and has a few interesting characters. But we are also going to get the Tarly Family Soap Opera, courtesy of D/D. this is NOT in the books. Talk about unwanted characters that serve NO purpose. I will not speculate more!

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I don't think so. It appears to me that the Dornish sandsnakes + Elaria will get a lot of attention and time in this season. They won't necessarilly get the most attention but one of the main plots they seem to be building towards is Lannisters vs Dornish. Then if Danny ever gets to Westeros, Dorne might play a role.

They do seem to like rushing into things by assassinating characters and character assassinating.

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4 hours ago, Reznak mo Reznak said:

Man... I haven't been on this site in a while because the anger level is just too much. And it certainly hasn't changed! Deliberate insult to fans? Subbing Sansa for fake Arya because they hate the Sansa character (hint: its just an efficient way of keeping the Bolton's northern story around and not having to introduce Jeyne Poole)? If people here are so willing to make such thoughtless and reactionary judgment calls on the showrunners and the show I don't know why you even watch it. But I guarantee you that no one is trying to deliberately poke the fans (you do it to yourselves) or punishing a fictional character.

 

 And I hate to break it to anyone who thinks otherwise, but there is no way the show is done with Dorne. The plot is just a shortcut to Dorne entering the war.

I rarely hear people outside of "the business" refer to producers as "showrunners". Looking at some of your older posts, it is consistent with your defensiveness of said showrunners. I think you have showed yor hand, sir. Also, "you" do it to yourselves? Not "we"? ;)

 

And Just to stay on topic: they can't clean anything up. The show is pop garbage with lots of cool eye candy. Why Hollywood types have to so brutally rewrite story lines and characters is beyond my comprehension. Just tell the dang story! Edit! Don't rewrite! If you were good enough to write something like this, you would be making an original show. 

And it is a shame that they have turned so many people off to the Dorne and Brienne story lines. It's some of grrm' is best writing. With the stupid show, people can't see that Brienne is a brilliantly farcical version of Don Quixote looking for real Chivalry with her "squire", and finding that chivalry only exists in stories; and her wise teacher ends up being The Kingslayer no less. It's is gold. Sadly lost on D&D and showrunner types. 

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I certainly felt it was a clean up job. Almost as if they have decided that there was no way they could do the long game with Doran, it was too bulky and he'd served his purpose and they were just going to strip the Dorne storyline to its barebones and use the SS as a sort of device in order to get some plot points achieved.

I don't have a huge problem with it. I'd rather they just cut their losses on that area of the show TBH.

Obviously those scenes were shite and easily the worst part of that episode, but at the very least they seem to clear the decks a little.

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8 hours ago, Reznak mo Reznak said:

Man... I haven't been on this site in a while because the anger level is just too much. And it certainly hasn't changed! Deliberate insult to fans? Subbing Sansa for fake Arya because they hate the Sansa character (hint: its just an efficient way of keeping the Bolton's northern story around and not having to introduce Jeyne Poole)? If people here are so willing to make such thoughtless and reactionary judgment calls on the showrunners and the show I don't know why you even watch it. But I guarantee you that no one is trying to deliberately poke the fans (you do it to yourselves) or punishing a fictional character.

 

 

I absolutely :agree: with you.

Why should the showmakers try to annoy some book fans on purpose!! This is kind of lunatic, why should they! I admit that making Sansa go along so easily with marrying Ramsay was lazy writing. But the alternative would have been to take Sansa and with it her actress basically out of season five.

The showmakers, on contrary, wanted an interesting and dark storyline for Sansa because Sophie Turner has become one of their assets. They had trouble to position her as young and naive girl in the beginning because she simply didn't  look that part. She gave the air of being twenty at her wedding to Tyrion and at the birds and bees talk with Margaery

In order to keep her believable they had to redefine her role, to make it more grisly and more grownup. Organizing parties in the Vale while the world shatters would hardly be that. Martin will soon end this little Sansa fun time in his next book, I bet. 

The show is ahead of the books concerning the general tune of Sansa's story. The cruelty is yet to come and there is no reason to believe that Martin intends to keep  Sansa away from horror while Shireen got burned alive. No matter if Sansa has survived Ramsay or if finally she has gone through the horror Martin himself has in store for her - she is alive and has a story ahead of her. Though she will be damaged after what Martin will give her, like after what the show gave her.

The  show "hates Sansa"? The show hates Myrcella and Shireen too? They are not people they are story tools. While readers and viewers get immersed and sometimes overidentify with fictional characters  this would be totally ridiculous for professional showmakers.

But I got the impression that Dorne indeed was a clear up. At least what can be expected if their most clever character has been eliminated? Who will inherit now?

I am not only annoyed by turning  Ellaria into the contrary of her book character since book Ellaria was basically Martin's voice. That way I cannot see how we could get Sarella/Alleras, a hugely interesting character I was looking forward to.

P.  S. , I am a  fan of both show and books, even of AFFC and ADWD

 

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I think Dorne might have two important elements essentially. 

1) Aegon and any future marriage.

2) Sandsnakes hidden around waiting to spring into action.

If the show is essentially cutting out all that marriage gumpf then all you are left with is Sandsnakes, and really this is the logical conclusion when you make that decision. 

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12 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

No I am sure that Ellaria only needs 20 good women to destroy House Lannister. Then she can join with Ramsay and his 20 good men to conquer Westeros. The Song of Snow and Sand is almost complete.

Awesome, and the bastards rule the realm!

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Without Faegon, was there even a need for Dorne in the first place. All of the events in Dorne, that aren't Faegon related seem like filler stories at best.

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8 minutes ago, sifth said:

Without Faegon, was there even a need for Dorne in the first place. All of the events in Dorne, that aren't Faegon related seem like filler stories at best.

Its possible the SS do have a sort of role to play, even in the books they are set up in interesting places, including possibly the Citadel. 

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5 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Its possible the SS do have a sort of role to play, even in the books they are set up in interesting places, including possibly the Citadel. 

 

My guess is, a war with Dorne is going to take the place of Faegon's invasion.

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1 minute ago, sifth said:

 

My guess is, a war with Dorne is going to take the place of Faegon's invasion.

Possibly, although my guess would be something a little more small scale, unless there is a big battle next season around KL, which might involve Dorne and Dany.

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