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Mr Smith

6x01: D & D cleaning up after themselves

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1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I think Dorne might have two important elements essentially. 

1) Aegon and any future marriage.

2) Sandsnakes hidden around waiting to spring into action.

If the show is essentially cutting out all that marriage gumpf then all you are left with is Sandsnakes, and really this is the logical conclusion when you make that decision. 

Who else would have delivered the "bad pussy" line?

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Showrunners are not the same as producers. In film, the producer is mainly responsible for getting the rights to the screenplay etc. and getting the money together. When a film costs $200 million, that is a very big job. They also have to constantly reassure the backers that their money is not being wasted. The director is the person in control of artistic decisions.

In TV, the directors do not have the same role. And in game of thrones even more so. Do you really think that the directors travel to every different location and so Arya is being directed by one director for one scene then another for a different scene depending on which episode it is intended for? I don't. I think that they assign one director to each geographic location and then credit episodes so that each gets their due. The closest it will come is that when the episodes are being edited, the credited director may well have been the person who worked on that particular episode.

The showrunners act as producers before a series gets green lit. But after that, the money issue is determined by how many viewers they pull in. HBO is writing film budget sized checks but they are doing so on last season's viewer figures. D&D are the people in overall control and they are the people who are deciding the narrative flow of the series as a whole.

It is a very different job to movie producer and thus gets called something different. 

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They could have just as easily changed the nature of Doran and had him lead whatever 'revenge' plan is going to occur, at least then you have someone who can act.  Instead, we are stuck with the bad actresses who are wholly out of tune with the rest of the tone of the show.  Unless this is done on purpose and they're supposed to be comical, I can't see the wisdom in this decision.

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I don't want to come off as one of those unhinged book purists, but DnD do strike me as the kind of people who would see the reaction critics and fans had towards the SS and Ellaria and go, "Oh, so everyone's hating on them, huh? Well, now the wall just got ten feet higher! And by that we mean you're gonna get way more of the shitty part of Dorne, so better get used to it!"

A part of me says it's irrational, but another part is adamant that DnD are taking the piss and basically giving us the middle finger. 

 

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Show Dorne to me, just highlights Dan and Dave's ineptitude as showrunners. Not knowing how to budget and time manage the right things. They cut Aegon but kept Dorne but then they kill the wrong parts of Dorne and leave the worst bits leading to worse ramifications that make show Dorne's independence look like sheer luck.

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2 hours ago, Miley the Monstrous said:

I don't want to come off as one of those unhinged book purists, but DnD do strike me as the kind of people who would see the reaction critics and fans had towards the SS and Ellaria and go, "Oh, so everyone's hating on them, huh? Well, now the wall just got ten feet higher! And by that we mean you're gonna get way more of the shitty part of Dorne, so better get used to it!"

A part of me says it's irrational, but another part is adamant that DnD are taking the piss and basically giving us the middle finger. 

 

I tend to agree, I can't think of any other reason for killing off Siddig, who can act, and leaving the sand snakes, who can't act.  Even if something about Dorne needs to stay in the show, they could have had it done using Siddig as the central character, who, worst case could send off Hotah or Trystane to do whatever gets done in KL, and had him kill the snakes.  This would at least have saved the best parts of TV Dorne and gotten rid of the laughable elements, which are totally out of sync with the rest of the show.

Since they did NOT do this, but kept the snakes, and continued to give them super cheesy dialogue, same terrible outfits, same stupid scenes, seriously, how did Obara get on that boat with a 5 foot spear? LMAO.  It seems like the show doubling down on purpose.

There is no way the sand snakes are going to get good all of a sudden, or learn to act.

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They have painted Ellaria and The SS as shitty people so now it's ok for the Lannisters to fuck them up. That's what Jamie's whole speech about taking from them what they took from us was all about. I can't believe they won an emmy for best writing 

On 2016-04-25 at 1:40 PM, Florina Laufeyson said:

Pretty much. After sleeping on it, it dawned on me that the OP has a point. They fucking nuked Dorne. They nuked it so hard, because they fucked it up so bad, they cant repair it. The only way to repair that plot is to bring the Griffs into play, and without Arianne, that would have a very difficult time working. They seem to have no intention of including the Aegon/Faegon plot into the show. Im not sure they are going to even bother building tension between Dorne and Dany. 

Theres nothing they can do. They wrote themselves into such a shit corner, they had to literally nuke it. I wouldnt be surprised if the Sand Snakes and Ellaria end up showing up a little later on, only to get killed.

 

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I'm honestly not sure how the show wants the audience to feel about Ellaria and the snakes now.

Are we supposed to go go, girrl power, look at those badasses taking charge...like some few of the critics?

Or are we supposed to think, good lord, they're killing their own family to avenge their family, they crazy and bad?

When you end the scene where a totally innocent, seemingly nice guy gets stabbed through the back of a head by a woman who just indicated she was standing down and her sister says 'greedy bitch' that suggests our response is supposed to be 'badasses yo'. not 'dishonorable kinslayer nutters'.

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23 hours ago, Morna The Maid said:

No, Ingelheim, you don't understand the hate. The hate from this book fan comes from the fact that the way the Sansa Ep 7 plot was written was a deliberate insult to book fans, one among dozens so far on this show. The eerie similarities in some things and differences in others seem to confirm this.)

In the books, it is not Sansa who is forced to marry Ramsey but Sansa's friend Jeyne Poole, a character who was actually seen on the show, in the pilot episode no less,  back in Season 1. (She's the cute little thing who cleans Sansa up after Arya throws food at her in the banquet scene.  I think she actually had a line or two too.) Book 5, ADWD, came out during Season 1 or right after, so D/D clearly had an advance copy where they knew about this character and therefore wrote her into the series.

IN ADWD, Jeyne was passed off as Arya by the Lannisters, pimped out by them to give the Boltons sway over the Stark loyalists, just as LF pimped Sansa out in the series. (Actually Jeyne was more of a sacrificial lamb, she was not of the royalty so nobody really cared what happened to her, which makes what happened to Sansa more infuriating, since she is treated the same way.) On the wedding night, Ramsey has Theon give her away and then orders him as witness to the consummation. He cuts Jeyne's dress off in the back with a dagger; in the show he simply tears it open down the back. He orders Jeyne naked on to the bed and then jams his finger up inside her and complains that she is "dry as an old bone", and then slaps her face. He then orders Theon to perform oral sex on her to "get her ready": "Reek bent to his task", and there the chapter ends. Later on, in another chapter, it is insinuated that Reek's active role in the wedding night did not end there. Just as in the show, it is insinuated that Jeyne is locked in her room by Ramsey, forbidden to leave, and Reek finds her crying in her nightgown in the bedroom in a bedraggled state that exactly mirrors a scene with Sansa in the show. (But somehow Sophie looks sexy in a nightie and has lip gloss on.) In a later chapter of ADWD, some time has passed, and Jeyne is terrified even of Reek and says "I'll do anything he wants, with him or...or with his dogs..." among other things, implying that Dave and Dan actually toned down the extent of Ramsey's perfidy. (I wonder what Sophie Turner would think if she had read the book and knew that Ramsey Bolton made his bride have sex with his dogs.)

 

The way these scenes are shot, and carefully selected details from the book in Sansa's scenes from her wedding ceremony on, is too eerily close to the fate of poor Jeyne Poole in the book and suggests a personal dislike of the character on the part of D/D that is very disturbing. For them to then cherry pick details and omit others, and then try to tone down what we see onscreen for the sake of "not being too shocking" or "Not being insulting to Sophie" while clearly reveling in her scripted fate by making her situation too close to Jeyne's, sends a message to book fans that makes me hate them even more.

Ha, i literally LOL'ed when I read this, and that rarely happens (I know sad life for me).

they specifically merged and Sansa and Jeyne, and that happens in adaptations. Just because something bad happens to Jeyne and they gave that part to Sansa doesn't mean they dislike Sansa's character or they were insulting book readers. More-over it should be seen as something positive for book readers rather than negative. They could have changed the storyline instead WF but kept it, which means they liked and appreciated it enough. 

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As to the SS and Elleria and Dorne  leadership -

I feel like other houses will call their banners and rebel for power. Let's say 3 or 4 separate houses and their specific banners rebel seperatly.

Elleria and her daughter not anticipating this originally will call back the 2 SS for KL. The 4 of them will march on these rebels individually and crush them singlehandedly.

After the 4 of them crush and eliminate the more powerful houses in the kingdom, they will unite the kingdom under "House Sand" and march on KL and defeat the entire Tyrell and Lannister army.

Then after they won in KL, you realize Jon died so Elleria and the 3 SS could sail North and the 4 of them take on his role and defeat the WW without any help.

We will realize that WW can not only be defeated by Valyrian Steel and obsidian but also by Dorne's signature weapon- "The Bad Pussy."

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22 minutes ago, The Dames do Moan said:

Ha, i literally LOL'ed when I read this, and that rarely happens (I know sad life for me).

they specifically merged and Sansa and Jeyne, and that happens in adaptations. Just because something bad happens to Jeyne and they gave that part to Sansa doesn't mean they dislike Sansa's character or they were insulting book readers. More-over it should be seen as something positive for book readers rather than negative. They could have changed the storyline instead WF but kept it, which means they liked and appreciated it enough. 

What exactly did they keep about the Winterfell storyline?

ramsay rapes a "Stark" and Theon saves her 

That's not even the best part of the storyline. It's all the tension and suspense that's boiling up in Winterfell as Stannis advances, people are dropping inside the walls and the northern lords and Freys coming to blows 

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1 minute ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

What exactly did they keep about the Winterfell storyline?

ramsay rapes a "Stark" and Theon saves her 

That's not even the best part of the storyline. It's all the tension and suspense that's boiling up in Winterfell as Stannis advances, people are dropping inside the walls and the northern lords and Freys coming to blows 

Well, I think most of Manderly, Frey, Dustin, etc. stuff is going to happen this year inside WF. But that's other stuff that's happening around the Sansa to Jeyne arc, I should have clarified that I meant they kept the "Stark" girls part pretty similar inside WF.

They had Ramsey marry a "Stark" from the direction of Roose to create a better grip on the North and to legitimize himself and thus any future off-spring. They are married inside winterfell, the "Stark" is badly mistreated, raped, locked away, and starts to feel increasingly more helpless. Reek then remembering his name helps to save the "Stark" by jumping of the battlements in a last ditch effort not knowing if they'd truely survive.

The Sansa to Jeyne arc was fairly similar from the books to screen. 

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3 hours ago, The Dames do Moan said:

Well, I think most of Manderly, Frey, Dustin, etc. stuff is going to happen this year inside WF. But that's other stuff that's happening around the Sansa to Jeyne arc, I should have clarified that I meant they kept the "Stark" girls part pretty similar inside WF.

They had Ramsey marry a "Stark" from the direction of Roose to create a better grip on the North and to legitimize himself and thus any future off-spring. They are married inside winterfell, the "Stark" is badly mistreated, raped, locked away, and starts to feel increasingly more helpless. Reek then remembering his name helps to save the "Stark" by jumping of the battlements in a last ditch effort not knowing if they'd truely survive.

The Sansa to Jeyne arc was fairly similar from the books to screen. 

It's "similar" in only the most superficial and shallow way - that also completely ignores and devalues the actual points (themes) being made by the author in that storyline. Even if the major plot points of the book arc are reproduced in the show, it's meaningless because the show stripped out everything that was thematically important and consequential about the arc.

The book arc is thematically deep and rich and packed with meaning. The show arc copied the external events of the arc but emptied it of substance and significance; it was an empty shell. Not similar at all, really, in my view.

 

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Every time I try to write abotu Dorne in the b oard, it crashes. I kinda giving up. Either way, there are three Dorne storylines in book: Arianne & Griffs, Quentyn, and the SS going to places.

As casting Arianne meant probably also casting the Griffs, they simply opted to have the Sand Snakes to simplify things. Not a bad mood completely. I would have agree with this if they hadn't insisted on making the Snakes such big protagonists and make things revolve around Myrcella's romance. Doran should have done what Doran did in the books: send Myrcella back to KL with the Snakes (after being given missions) and get her killed on the way by some random Dornish who is mad at him (move the Queenmaker plot to this point). You don't need to kill neither Doran and Trystane, and if they wanted some shock factor, cast Quentyn getting to Meereen. It would definitely be waaay more entertaining than Tyrion walking around being cool and smart in Meereen. :dunno:

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8 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

It's "similar" in only the most superficial and shallow way - that also completely ignores and devalues the actual points (themes) being made by the author in that storyline. Even if the major plot points of the book arc are reproduced in the show, it's meaningless because the show stripped out everything that was thematically important and consequential about the arc.

The book arc is thematically deep and rich and packed with meaning. The show arc copied the external events of the arc but emptied it of substance and significance; it was an empty shell. Not similar at all, really, in my view.

 

Your certainly entitled to your opinion. I felt like a lot of the major themes were left evident, some of the smaller ones (or ones that wouldn't work simply cause they switched characters) were cut and some of the bigger ones D&D's intent was to keep in except it just didn't translate on screen well.

Whether it was a good idea to combine Sansa and Jeyne is another topic though, above is what led me to believe my original post - that they didn't switch the characters because they hate Sansa's character and because they intentionally wanted to piss of book readers and get them to stop watching.

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2 hours ago, The Dames do Moan said:

Whether it was a good idea to combine Sansa and Jeyne is another topic though, above is what led me to believe my original post - that they didn't switch the characters because they hate Sansa's character and because they intentionally wanted to piss of book readers and get them to stop watching.

If you mean, by the bolded part, that my post which you responded to is confirmation of your idea about hating Sansa's character, you're wrong. Please don't use what I said as evidence of that because I have never once maintained that show creators hate Sansa and switched her with Jeyne Poole in order to punish her. Nor have I ever claimed that they intentionally want to piss off book readers; I don't think that.

Also, I have zero problem with the show making major changes more suitable to its medium. My complaints are only that their changes are so very shallow, cliched, hackneyed and dreadful. 

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1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

If you mean, by the bolded part, that my post which you responded to is confirmation of your idea about hating Sansa's character, you're wrong. Please don't use what I said as evidence of that because I have never once maintained that show creators hate Sansa and switched her with Jeyne Poole in order to punish her. Nor have I ever claimed that they intentionally want to piss off book readers; I don't think that.

Also, I have zero problem with the show making major changes more suitable to its medium. My complaints are only that their changes are so very shallow, cliched, hackneyed and dreadful. 

I never said or implied you thought that's why they did that or that you think that. Nor would I assume anyone thinks that. I don't know why you'd get that impression but ok.

My original post you quoted was my response to someone who did think that and posted that what they thought.

 

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I recall reading somewhere that it's possible Ellaria and the Sand Snakes could ally themselves with Dany. But given the direction the show is going, is that even feasible? They have absolutely no knowledge of Doran's plan to ally Dorne with the Targaryens - we don't even know if TV show Doran had still been plotting such an alliance anyway.

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8 minutes ago, Ravness said:

I recall reading somewhere that it's possible Ellaria and the Sand Snakes could ally themselves with Dany. But given the direction the show is going, is that even feasible? They have absolutely no knowledge of Doran's plan to ally Dorne with the Targaryens - we don't even know if TV show Doran had still been plotting such an alliance anyway.

News of what happened in Dorne is likely to reach Varys.  He will be required for that alliance if it happens.....at least that's how I think about it.

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