So where in the heck was Trystane?

[TheKitttenGuard]

2 minutes ago, Ser Greenseer said:

It's a convenience for the sake of plot that the SS suddenly arrived in Kingslanding out of no where with no explanation.

The explanation could be given at a later time which the show does on several occassions.

Yeah, there is a convenience for plot.  

The Sand Snakes knew where the ship was going.  They leave within a day or two on a non-descript ship to follow.  A sympathetic crew allow them on to kill Trystane.

It is not critical for this to be shown and the exposition not needed.

The scenes with Doran and Trystane were set-up as a shock and this show  does abrupt action.  It can be off-putting but it is not a stretch to think what happen.

[hallam]

17 minutes ago, robasp2 said:

Yes, see you are saying some possible explanations.. Good.

The problem here is that D&D are not showing those on screen.

1.How did SS get on the boat?

(An explanation was a must on the show. Atleast a hint that Ellaria sends them off to KL. You CAN make a character teleport if you show the begining. You CANT just have someone appear with no back story)

2.How did Ellaria convince those guards? Or if it was only the two, they must hint a plan how to deal with the others.

Also showing Areo collapse with a little prick on the back is so funny. They could have added the two guards)

Why make 48 minute episodes when you can take atleast a few seconds to give some clarity.

Wow, you have to have everything spelled out.

Some of us like shows that are a bit more sophisticated.

[Rhollo]

9 hours ago, Clash said:

How he rationalises it is hardly a plot hole. He wouldn't have had any support against Jon before the wildlings came through, but afterwards was a different matter.

[...]

There were only two near enough to stop her that I could see. Once Doran is dead, so is their allegiance to him. Who is in charge then? Ellaria I presume, so would they.

[...]

Again, I have no problem finding an answer to these 'plot holes'. I didn't need them when I watched the episode and none of what you listed cost me a second thought. Maybe a first thought, but hey it's late in the evening and I'm tired.

As I already wrote before, not all of these are definite plotholes, but they are certainly testing the suspension of disbelief, even with more or less creative explanations. And in their entirety, they break that suspension.

Also, some of these problems are created completely unneccesary. Why place a Dozen guards around Doran when he is assassinated instead of killing him in a more private environment/subtle way (poisoning his food, for example) ? Making it necessary for us to suspect, how and which guards Ellaria somehow convinced to go along with her plan, without Hotah noticing.

But since you are implying that I'm just dumb for having this issues and not being able to immediatly jump to the obvious, satisfying explanations we can just leave it with "agree to disagree" here. I'm not keen on earning personal insults for trying to making reasonable arguments.

[Rhollo]

3 hours ago, hallam said:

Some of us like shows that are a bit more sophisticated.

Yeah, me too, too bad we don't get that with GoT anymore.

[Clash]

1 hour ago, Rhollo said:

As I already wrote before, not all of these are definite plotholes, but they are certainly testing the suspension of disbelief, even with more or less creative explanations. And in their entirety, they break that suspension.

Testing suspension of disbelief???? These things have easy explanations and in some cases you've misunderstood the situation like where the ship was anchored.

For the record, Suspension of disbelief is the viewer's (or reader's) willingness to believe the unbelievable. None of the situations you describe are unbelieveable or defy logic. A logical answer and a believable explanation was provided for each one by more than one poster. By nitpicking at those explanations, you clearly don't want to admit that there may be logical explanations. I can only guess as to why that is.

Quote

Also, some of these problems are created completely unneccesary. Why place a Dozen guards around Doran when he is assassinated instead of killing him in a more private environment/subtle way (poisoning his food, for example) ? Making it necessary for us to suspect, how and which guards Ellaria somehow convinced to go along with her plan, without Hotah noticing.

She doesn't have to convince any of them. She's part of the royal family. They are there to protect her as much as him. Once he's dead, who's in charge to give them orders?

Quote

But since you are implying that I'm just dumb for having this issues and not being able to immediatly jump to the obvious, satisfying explanations we can just leave it with "agree to disagree" here. I'm not keen on earning personal insults for trying to making reasonable arguments.

I didn't say anything about you. I can only speak for myself.

 

[Jehane]

On ‎27‎.‎04‎.‎2016 at 2:25 AM, CrastorsLivingSon said:

And to put a bow on it because he said it better than I ever could; courtesy of Sir Loin Steak in another thread:

Faullaria and the Sand Fakes plan to honour and avenge Oberyn (who died in a trial by combat that he volunteered for, while attempting to avenge his sister). Creatively it all makes sense:

Step 1: Meet up in the desert to remind each other of who you are by recounting your back stories. Spend a long time burying some guy up to his neck, then kill him.

Step 2: Incompetently attempt to assassinate an innocent girl who is arranged to marry Oberyn's nephew. Do this in Doran's gardens, where he and his guards can clearly see what you are doing.

Step 3: Having failed miserably and being temporarily imprisoned, randomly decide to cure the mercenary you poisoned. Said mercenary is literally the only person protecting Larry Lannister while in Dorne.

Step 4: Play slapsies to pass the time.

Step 5: Have Faullaria administer an extremely conspicuous poison kiss, don't worry about Larry Lannister.

Step 6: Have said poison take a very short-time to take effect, so you'll know she's dead before the ship she's leaving on gets any distance whatsoever. You have honoured Oberyn's memory by not murdering a little girl in Dorne which he really seemed to take pride in; Dornish waters are of course completely exempt from this.

Step 7: Remind Faullaria to take the antidote at the last possible second, once visible brain damage symptoms start to occur (don't worry, her mind is already so broken no-one will notice the difference).

Step 8: Dispatch two of the Sand Fakes to infiltrate the ship that left while you all stood around watching. Take weapons that are terrible for fighting in a confined space.

Step 9: Wait for Larry Lannister to leave the ship, hope he leaves Trystane onboard. Yes, wait until the ship reaches King's Landing.

Step 10: Murder Oberyn's nephew, your cousin.

Step 11: Wait for Doran to receive word that Myrcella has been murdered. Kill the messenger because THIS IS PORNE! Note: this should allow the Lannister forces the maximum time possible to ready themselves.

Step 12: Stab Doran's only loyal bodyguard. Don't worry he may look huge and apparently trains super hard, but he'll drop like a sack of rocks immediately; he'll die faster than it took to dust a vampire on Buffy.

Step 13: Murder Oberyn's cherished brother (preferably after he reminisces about what a great guy he was). Congratulations! You have now wiped out the Martell family, just as Oberyn Martell would've wanted?

Step 14: Don't worry about Doran's other guards, they won't bat an eye at his dead brother's paramour and bastard daughter brutally slaughtering their Prince. You may consider replacing these men, on second thought, no definitely keep them. As Doran dies taunt him with how you will/have murdered his son too.

Step 15: Having murdered the venerable Martell family (and possessing no army of your own) assume control of Porne - this is unquestionably how the feudal system worked so expect no trouble. The other lords won't be a problem because they don't seem to exist.

Step 16: Begin Phase 2, where assuming you didn't just plunge Porne into civil war, you can finally start working towards getting revenge on the Lannisters, probably...

Thank you so much! This is the best summary of the awful Dornish plot. I saw the new episode yesterday and couldn't stop wondering. I mean - I thought Dorne in S5 was awfully done. I thought that it couldn't be any worse. Boy, was I wrong. I'm still disappointed and, yes, I'm angry because they messed up Dorne even more and beyond repair. By the end of the show, Dorne will probably be gone forever because Ellaria and her stupid daughters will of course start a war with the Lannisters and be wiped out - at least I hope so. I've always liked Ellaria until they started to change her last season resp. merged her with Arianne. Now I just want Ellaria and the stupid sand snakes with their stupid fighting choreo dead and be done with Dorne.

[dantares83]

did not read the whole thread but apparently, from the note Jamie wrote to Doran (in perfect handwriting nonetheless, the show runners seems to forget he cannot write properly in season 5), he had send Trystane back (to protect him from the wrath of Cersei) to Dorne, which is silly because he should had just gone back himself and demand the heads of the sand s**ts and their useless mother (show ones).

[Rhollo]

1 hour ago, Clash said:

She doesn't have to convince any of them. She's part of the royal family. They are there to protect her as much as him.

No, Ellaria is not part of the royal family. She was the mistress of a deceased memeber of the royal family. Oberyn and her were not married.

The guards have absolutely no obligation to protect her, let take orders from here.

[Clash]

9 minutes ago, Rhollo said:

No, Ellaria is not part of the royal family. She was the mistress of a deceased memeber of the royal family. Oberyn and her were not married.

The guards have absolutely no obligation to protect her, let take orders from here.

She's a noblewoman in her own right, the mother of Oberyn's children and someone who is often in counsel wilth Doran Martell. She enjoys all the privileges of her position and you think the guards do not have to protect her?

Fair enough, but you're jumping over a number of belief suspension bridges there yourself.

[Bishop Cruz]

2 hours ago, dantares83 said:

did not read the whole thread but apparently, from the note Jamie wrote to Doran (in perfect handwriting nonetheless, the show runners seems to forget he cannot write properly in season 5), he had send Trystane back (to protect him from the wrath of Cersei) to Dorne, which is silly because he should had just gone back himself and demand the heads of the sand s**ts and their useless mother (show ones).

Yeah pretty much. The trip to KL itself makes no sense when they were that close to Drone when she died. It's not like it wasn't obviously poison or anything obvious like that.

 

2 hours ago, dantares83 said:

did not read the whole thread but apparently, from the note Jamie wrote to Doran (in perfect handwriting nonetheless, the show runners seems to forget he cannot write properly in season 5), he had send Trystane back (to protect him from the wrath of Cersei) to Dorne, which is silly because he should had just gone back himself and demand the heads of the sand s**ts and their useless mother (show ones)

 

2 hours ago, Clash said:

Testing suspension of disbelief???? These things have easy explanations and in some cases you've misunderstood the situation like where the ship was anchored.

She doesn't have to convince any of them. She's part of the royal family. They are there to protect her as much as him. Once he's dead, who's in charge to give them orders.

 

Ellaria is  NOT part of the "royal family". She's the live in girlfriend of a late member of the fam, and the mother of one of his kids (maybe more not sure in show canon). She isn't even a real noble. She's a bastard. She has no right nor power to rule. Especially not now as the family that was keeping her in high social status is now dead by her hand. If Ellaria was a Martell, then the plot would have been silly, but at least a little logical, in that she would be in line to rule. As it stands though, it makes no sense whatsoever.

[Rhollo]

1 minute ago, Clash said:

She's a noblewoman in her own right, the mother of Oberyn's children and someone who is often in counsel wilth Doran Martell. She enjoys all the privileges of her position and you think the guards do not have to protect her?

Fair enough, but you're jumping over a number of belief suspension bridges there yourself.

So if Littlefinger and Sansa would have walked up to Jeoffrey one day and stabbed him in the middle of the throne room, the logical reaction of the Kingsguard would have been to stand idly by, because as Tyrions wife Sansa was also part of the royal family (even legally, other than Ellaria) and LF was a nobleman in his own right, often giving the Crown counsel.

[Clash]

4 minutes ago, Rhollo said:

So if Littlefinger and Sansa would have walked up to Jeoffrey one day and stabbed him in the middle of the throne room, the logical reaction of the Kingsguard would have been to stand idly by, because as Tyrions wife Sansa was also part of the royal family (even legally, other than Ellaria) and LF was a nobleman in his own right, often giving the Crown counsel.

Ah, nothing like a straw man to bolster your argument. Well played sir. Well played. I'll leave you to figure out the difference between the two scenarios yourself.

Meanwhile, having pointed out several different logical reasons why the guards might not have attacked Ellaria, you persist in the belief that something unbelievable happened there.

[Ruhail]

2 minutes ago, Clash said:

Ah, nothing like a straw man to bolster your argument. Well played sir. Well played. I'll leave you to figure out the difference between the two scenarios yourself.

Meanwhile, having pointed out several different logical reasons why the guards might not have attacked Ellaria, you persist in the belief that something unbelievable happened there.

If the guards hate Doran and support Elleria so much, why does any of S5 Dorne wih them being arrested and bought and threatened before Doran happen eh? Why didnt all the Guards except Hotah let them kill Myrcella in episode 6?

[Clash]

6 minutes ago, Ruhail said:

If the guards hate Doran and support Elleria so much, why does any of S5 Dorne wih them being arrested and bought and threatened before Doran happen eh? Why didnt all the Guards except Hotah let them kill Myrcella in episode 6?

Ehh? Where did I say that the guards 'hated' Doran? Or support Ellaria?

As a guard, faced with a fait accompli that your boss is dead, what do you do? Do you rush in and attack what could be you new boss? Who's going to clap you on the back for that? Clap you in chains more like.

I'm one of those guards, I'm sure as hell going to find something interesting in the other direction to look at and let someone else make the political decisions.

[Ludo Kressh]

15 hours ago, Miley the Monstrous said:

Jaime is dyslexic in the show canon (it was established by Tywin in season 2)

shrugs 

Well, apparently it's an easter egg released by HBO and they have a history of not being able to spell right. I just thought it was a little funny. But yeah, canonically it could be Jaime's difficulty with reading and writing.

[Direwight]

8 minutes ago, Clash said:

Ehh? Where did I say that the guards 'hated' Doran? Or support Ellaria?

As a guard, faced with a fait accompli that your boss is dead, what do you do? Do you rush in and attack what could be you new boss? Who's going to clap you on the back for that? Clap you in chains more like.

I'm one of those guards, I'm sure as hell going to find something interesting in the other direction to look at and let someone else make the political decisions.

Come on, that's just trolling. If you actually (re?)watch the scene, it's rather blatantly obvious that the case was not that the guards were simply surprised and decided to look the other way because it was already too late.

[Clash]

4 minutes ago, Direwight said:

Come on, that's just trolling. If you actually (re?)watch the scene, it's rather blatantly obvious that the case was not that the guards were simply surprised and decided to look the other way because it was already too late.

Maybe you're late to the discussion but this is about whether the scene is unbelievable or not. A number of logical reasons have been put forward, not all of them are likely true, but you might have missed where it was pointed out that there were only two guards near enough to prevent the killings.

What you quoted above is just another possible explanation that stays within the bounds of logic (not that it's the actual case, just what could be deemed logical or believable). It ecrtainly was not trolling. Go back a page or two, I spent a bit of time (as did others) posting logical reasons for a ridiculous laundry list of so called plot holes that required suspension of disbelief.

[Direwight]

54 minutes ago, Clash said:

What you quoted above is just another possible explanation that stays within the bounds of logic (not that it's the actual case, just what could be deemed logical or believable). It ecrtainly was not trolling. Go back a page or two, I spent a bit of time (as did others) posting logical reasons for a ridiculous laundry list of so called plot holes that required suspension of disbelief.

My point is merely that it's not logical nor believable that the guards were not in Ellaria's pocket, because it's directly contradicted by what we actually see happen.

[Tianzi]

Trystane was in exactly the same place as all of the others: a waiting room with entrances to any location the plot demands at any given moment.

Actually, I may remember it wrong, but weren't the Greedy Bitch and the Forgettable One staying in Dorne with the Bad Pussy and Snake Mom in their last scene of season 5?
 

[Ruhail]

7 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Trystane was in exactly the same place as all of the others: a waiting room with entrances to any location the plot demands at any given moment.

Actually, I may remember it wrong, but weren't the Greedy Bitch and the Forgettable One staying in Dorne with the Bad Pussy and Snake Mom in their last scene of season 5?
 

They were all there in that scene when Elleria wipes her poisoned lips clean seeing the boat leave.