So where in the heck was Trystane?

[Tianzi]

Then I will just assume that they swam after the ship, sneaked onboard, predicted Jaime's decision about Trystane and left their hiding when the ship was returning and Bad Pussy facebooked them that they're just killing their uncle and need to synchronize.
 

[hallam]

Killing Doran in front of his guard is a demonstration of the fact that they are on her side. They use the distraction of the letter to kill Doran's bodyguard.

Everyone but Doran and his bodyguard (and the messenger chap) knew what was about to go down.

It was a demonstration of power.

[Clash]

Just now, hallam said:

Killing Doran in front of his guard is a demonstration of the fact that they are on her side. They use the distraction of the letter to kill Doran's bodyguard.

Everyone but Doran and his bodyguard (and the messenger chap) knew what was about to go down.

It was a demonstration of power.

Quite likely. Yet more reason to dispel the notion that it was unbelievable.

[Rhollo]

1 hour ago, hallam said:

Killing Doran in front of his guard is a demonstration of the fact that they are on her side. They use the distraction of the letter to kill Doran's bodyguard.

Everyone but Doran and his bodyguard (and the messenger chap) knew what was about to go down.

It was a demonstration of power.

A demonstration of power to whom ? When everyone present is either already on her side (the guards) or ends up dead without even getting a chance to surrender (Hotah, the Maester), there is no one who would need a demonstration of the fact that the guards are on Ellarias side.

[robasp2]

1 hour ago, Clash said:

Quite likely. Yet more reason to dispel the notion that it was unbelievable.

Not everything was ""unbelievable"".

The thing is discontinuity. A few seconds were enogh to show things more clearly. They didn't.

And with they way you are saying " it was too obvious" in all your posts.

I'm guessing If you know how the show ends, you will just be happy. You wont care how we reached there. You wont care if the white walkers just appeared one shot and sat on the iron throne..

I guess you'll just filll everything in between yourself and say it was all implied.

[Valetudo]

Why did they wait to kill Doran & Trystane if the guards are on their side? They could have killed them in the boarding scene and saved themselves a lot of trouble. They could even have used this advantage and killed someone that in fact had something to do with Elia's murder (remember that Jaime was the Kingsguard left to protect the royal family in KL when Elia was killed).

Nothing changed between the boarding scene and the assassination scene that could make the guards change their minds, so why keep so many loose ends when a more logical option was available?

[Alayne's Shadow.]

18 minutes ago, Valetudo said:

Why did they wait to kill Doran & Trystane if the guards are on their side? They could have killed them in the boarding scene and saved themselves a lot of trouble. They could even have used this advantage and killed someone that in fact had something to do with Elia's murder (remember that Jaime was the Kingsguard left to protect the royal family in KL when Elia was killed).

Nothing changed between the boarding scene and the assassination scene that could make the guards change their minds, so why keep so many loose ends when a more logical option was available?

Yeah, since Jaime was already there! He was staying in the palace! Ellaria could have easily made her move with him there, and she'd get direct revenge, rather than "avenging" Oberyn by killing his beloved brother and nephew. I mean, Oberyn wanted revenge for his sister and his nephews, so the *logical* thing Faullaria does is kill his brother and his nephew. I can't even with this plot. 

[Clash]

32 minutes ago, robasp2 said:

Not everything was ""unbelievable"".

The thing is discontinuity. A few seconds were enogh to show things more clearly. They didn't.

That's different from plot holes and the need for suspension of disbelief. Which is what was claimed in the list of instances quoted. I wouldn't diagree with you that there was a little discontinuity in some scenes, but you clearly agree with me that everything was not unbelievable.

Quote

And with they way you are saying " it was too obvious" in all your posts.

I think you may be mistaking me for someone else, because I haven't used that phrase anywhere in the last couple of pages. (not bored enough to go back further).

Quote

 

I'm guessing If you know how the show ends, you will just be happy. You wont care how we reached there. You wont care if the white walkers just appeared one shot and sat on the iron throne..

I guess you'll just filll everything in between yourself and say it was all implied.

 

Yes, you're guessing.

[Tagganaro]

I thought the only failure in this scene was not showing clearly enough that Trystane was in the harbor outside of King's Landing.  It was sort of a really quick cut there and wasn't quite clear where he was.

The rest of this stuff seems really nit-picky.  Very easy to hand-wave away that Trystane had been on the ship a while (as evidence by his arts and craft hobby), the ship had been waiting outside King's Landing, which would give the Sandsnakes more than enough time to get to King's Landing and somehow sneak onto the ship.  Maybe they wouldn't even need to sneak since they are family.  

 

[Rhollo]

4 hours ago, Clash said:

As a guard, faced with a fait accompli that your boss is dead, what do you do? Do you rush in and attack what could be you new boss? Who's going to clap you on the back for that? Clap you in chains more like.

I'm one of those guards, I'm sure as hell going to find something interesting in the other direction to look at and let someone else make the political decisions.

And I think you wouldn't even make it to the first recall of the "Dornes next royal guard" castings with that kind of attitude.

I'm one of those guards, and not in on the coup, my reaction would be
"Oh shit, oh shit, oh shit, they just killed my king, my captain and the maester, better ready my weapon and look around if maybe someone is coming in my direction trying to put pointy-stabby-things inside me too"
and not
"Well, bollocks, assassins are on the loose, but if i don't move, they won't see me - hah"

[Valetudo]

26 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I thought the only failure in this scene was not showing cl early enough that Trystane was in the harbor outside of King's Landing.  It was sort of a really quick cut there and wasn't quite clear where he was.

The rest of this stuff seems really nit-picky.  Very easy to hand-wave away that Trystane had been on the ship a while (as evidence by his arts and craft hobby), the ship had been waiting outside King's Landing, which would give the Sandsnakes more than enough time to get to King's Landing and somehow sneak onto the ship.  Maybe they wouldn't even need to sneak since they are family.  

 

And everybody can enter freely into the Red Keep's harbor, right?

Just take a magical ship of convenience and go to KL off screen, pray that Trystane stay in his ship, pray that they let you go anywhere near it, infiltrate it off-screen (or get help from the ship's crew off screen to get in),...

Imagine if Tywin's murder was played like that too. We would have Tyrion in his cell in one scene and killing his father in the next. How he got there can be seen as nitpicky too, right?

[Valetudo]

41 minutes ago, Alayne's Shadow. said:

Yeah, since Jaime was already there! He was staying in the palace! Ellaria could have easily made her move with him there, and she'd get direct revenge, rather than "avenging" Oberyn by killing his beloved brother and nephew. I mean, Oberyn wanted revenge for his sister and his nephews, so the *logical* thing Faullaria does is kill his brother and his nephew. I can't even with this plot. 

That's the point. The whole plan is stupid, and its execution is sloppy at best. Even if you can use your imagination in order to explain how it happened, it doesn't mean that the plan is logic or believable. 

[Clash]

9 minutes ago, Valetudo said:

And everybody can enter freely into the Red Keep's harbor, right?

Just take a magical ship of convenience and go to KL off screen, pray that Trystane stay in his ship, pray that they let you go anywhere near it, infiltrate it off-screen (or get help from the ship's crew off screen to get in),...

Imagine if Tywin's murder was played like that too. We would have Tyrion in his cell in one scene and killing his father in the next. How he got there can be seen as nitpicky too, right?

Because getting on a ship in a harbour is so much the same as getting out of a dungeon.

[Valetudo]

2 minutes ago, Clash said:

Because getting on a ship in a harbour is so much the same as getting out of a dungeon.

Because leaving Dorne just after Myrcella's ship, when you've just got out of prison for attempting to murder her, travelling all the way to KL, hopping that your target stay in his ship, infiltrating the Red Keep harbor and getting on a ship = just getting on a ship.

[239JMFL34109]

2 hours ago, Rhollo said:

A demonstration of power to whom ? When everyone present is either already on her side (the guards) or ends up dead without even getting a chance to surrender (Hotah, the Maester), there is no one who would need a demonstration of the fact that the guards are on Ellarias side.

That was not a distraction, that was jaime's letter. she had to kill him then of the next words out of doran's mouth kill her. 

BUT that was for the audience. The audience now knows that she has dorne on her side. 

16 minutes ago, Valetudo said:

That's the point. The whole plan is stupid, and its execution is sloppy at best. Even if you can use your imagination in order to explain how it happened, it doesn't mean that the plan is logic or believable. 

except that guards were not on her side last season so she could not have killed jaime.  she spent the time between seasons getting people on her side. Seeing Doran letting jaime go might have been the wedge she used to turn the rest of dorne against him. 

[flare]

I don't get why everyone who didn't think the episode was dogshit has: they were family among their top arguments. 

They are just bastard children of a deceased prince. They wouldn't even get protection from the royal guard. Ellaria again is a nobody. Only because Oberyn was so beloved does she get some special treatment. 

So if I am a royal guard I presumingly take a bit of pride in my job. I guard the heir to the kingdom. I witness that his betrothed almost get's kidnapped by those bastards and later poisened to death. There is no way I let those fuckers on the ship as there is no reason for them to even be there. The only way anything plays out like it happened is when the majority of the guards are already in the sneks pocket and that doesn't make sense since the guards on the ship are possible mostly Trystene personal detail anyway. They would have been needed to be bought even before the trip started. When you have so many guards on your side  why go into the trouble of having the sneks follow the ship and not either let on of the guards do the job or just kill everyone while there were still in Dorne. You can spin any tale you want anyway. Kingslayer sneaked in killed Doran, Trystane and Hotah and later got killed themself. Same outcome.

The most unbelievable thing for me is that not on of the guards who got approached by Ellaria and the Snakes to commit treason thought:

Maybe it is not the best idea to kill my ruler, throw the country into war against a more powerful enemy only because I want vengeance for what happened a long time ago and by doing so kill thousands of people.

All it takes is one guard. 

[Clash]

1 minute ago, Valetudo said:

Because leaving Dorne just after Myrcella's ship, when you've just got out of prison for attempting to murder her, travelling all the way to KL, hopping that your target stay in his ship, infiltrating the Red Keep harbor and getting on a ship = just getting on a ship.

Was that their intention? To kill him on the ship?

They followed him waiting for an opportunity to present itself, which it duly did. Once Myrcella was gone, would anyone really have felt they were still a danger to her? Once she had left Dorne, she was no longer Dorne's problem. There's plenty of coastline in Dorne for them to have sailed from other than Sunspear itself. They could even have got ahead of Jaime's ship if necessary.

Blackwater bay didn't look too heavily guarded in any case. In fact it looked empty apart from Jaime's ship.

They could have shown any number of different scenarios for how they got there, it wasn't really necessary.

[239JMFL34109]

3 hours ago, Tianzi said:

Then I will just assume that they swam after the ship, sneaked onboard, predicted Jaime's decision about Trystane and left their hiding when the ship was returning and Bad Pussy facebooked them that they're just killing their uncle and need to synchronize.
 

Doran and trystane could have died days and weeks apart. We have no reason to believe they happened at the same time. 

[Clash]

2 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

Doran and trystane could have died days and weeks apart. We have no reason to believe they happened at the same time. 

Well Trystane has to have been killed after Jaime sent the note. I'm sure Jaime would have found out quick enough when either his body or his absence was discovered by the crew. That would ptrobably narrow the window down to whatever length of time it takes a Raven to fly from KL to Sunspear. Still a couple of days minimum I would suspect but certainly not (nor would it have to be) synchronised.

 

[Ser Hyle]

6 hours ago, Clash said:

She's a noblewoman in her own right, the mother of Oberyn's children and someone who is often in counsel wilth Doran Martell. She enjoys all the privileges of her position and you think the guards do not have to protect her?

Fair enough, but you're jumping over a number of belief suspension bridges there yourself.

What!? You're saying that royal guards are obligated to protect or at least not arrest the murderer of the subject they're protecting as long as said murderer has often been in counsel with the murdered party?