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hallam

Did people miss a major death [Spoiler] ?

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I am rather surprised that people are asking if Mel is going to resurrect Jon because by my reading she just had her death scene.

Consider the clues that were left - Davos stares at the blood, Kingsblood. The camera lingers on the things on Mel's table which include a vial that contained some liquid. Davos, her fiercest critic says that there is nothing he doesn't think she could do.

Forget the Rattleshirt glamour from the book. Whatever spell is keeping Mel young, it isn't that spell. It is something much more powerful. She has taken the necklace off before and didn't turn old. So it wasn't just that that made her suddenly old. The much more obvious reading is that she is dying.

Mel has to die for the plot to continue. She is too powerful. Like Dumbledore or Gandalf, she can solve too many problems too easily. And if she stays around after Jon is brought back, Jon can never be in danger. Any time he dies, Mel will just have to give him another booster shot like Thoros did. Mel certainly can't be around when Jon is laying siege to Winterfell to find out his true parentage, she would look in the fires and know.

Mel's plotline is exhausted in any case. She was tied to Stanis and after her utter failure, there is only one thing she can do to atone for all the deaths she has caused. The big challenge in televising GoT is that the books have too many plots going on at once. So D&D have wisely followed the Stanis plot line through to its conclusion before starting with the Ironborn subplot.

Also consider the long list of people who would be coming for revenge on Mel. Davos would certainly slice her in two if he knew what she had done to Shireen. And the Wildings hate her for burning Mance. 

So don't look for Mel resurrecting Jon in the next episode. It has already happened.

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Melisandre doesn't need to die for her arc to complete, she certainly can disappear back to Asshai or whatever whenever she wants.

That being said, I don't think her arc is quite complete yet. They were showing the other side of her and her vulnerability for a reason, and I'm sure we'll get to see what that reason is.

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I agree that she's dying/weakening. The cold could potentially be exhausting her, her power may be too hard to contain with the Others so close and her faith/willpower depleting. This gave me hope that Ghost won't have to be sacrificed but rather Mel will, because I believe in a theory that she has kings blood.

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They were merely showing that she has lost faith in the Lord of Light ... Funnily enough, that is the exact same thing Thoros said when he was granted the power to bring back people from the dead.

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In one of the trailers she talks about everything being a lie. I don't remember hearing her say any of those things, which means she has yet to say them... still alive. But I think that is the only way her arc in the show can be redeemed is by raising up Jon. Or maybe she has Davos kill her with Long Claw (Jon's sword). But I don't think she is dead yet, but knows now what she must do (die for Jon as well as for her past actions). Many of the quotes used in the trailers were in this initial episode, but didn't pack the punch I expected.

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49 minutes ago, Tooms said:

They were merely showing that she has lost faith in the Lord of Light ... Funnily enough, that is the exact same thing Thoros said when he was granted the power to bring back people from the dead.

Interesting catch ! I thought for a moment on reflection that she was choosing to die in that last scene, but I agree with some of the others above her arc isnt quite finished yet.  

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2 hours ago, hallam said:

I am rather surprised that people are asking if Mel is going to resurrect Jon because by my reading she just had her death scene.

Consider the clues that were left - Davos stares at the blood, Kingsblood. The camera lingers on the things on Mel's table which include a vial that contained some liquid. Davos, her fiercest critic says that there is nothing he doesn't think she could do.

Forget the Rattleshirt glamour from the book. Whatever spell is keeping Mel young, it isn't that spell. It is something much more powerful. She has taken the necklace off before and didn't turn old. So it wasn't just that that made her suddenly old. The much more obvious reading is that she is dying.

Mel has to die for the plot to continue. She is too powerful. Like Dumbledore or Gandalf, she can solve too many problems too easily. And if she stays around after Jon is brought back, Jon can never be in danger. Any time he dies, Mel will just have to give him another booster shot like Thoros did. Mel certainly can't be around when Jon is laying siege to Winterfell to find out his true parentage, she would look in the fires and know.

Mel's plotline is exhausted in any case. She was tied to Stanis and after her utter failure, there is only one thing she can do to atone for all the deaths she has caused. The big challenge in televising GoT is that the books have too many plots going on at once. So D&D have wisely followed the Stanis plot line through to its conclusion before starting with the Ironborn subplot.

Also consider the long list of people who would be coming for revenge on Mel. Davos would certainly slice her in two if he knew what she had done to Shireen. And the Wildings hate her for burning Mance. 

So don't look for Mel resurrecting Jon in the next episode. It has already happened.

What do you mean Kingsblood ? I know DAvos took two looks at the bloodstain, what makes you say Davos concludes it is Kingsblood ? Im assuming that is what you mean ? 

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I thought the same thing while I was watching it, but I'm not sure now. I think if they kill off Mel, it will be a sacrifice for Jon. Not Nissa Nissa style, that won't work for the show. It will probably just be her stepping into the fire.

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I keep thinking about what Mirri Maas Duur told Daenerys in season 1... only death can pay for life. Mel kept saying there's power in king's blood... which means she's using some kind of blood magic! So her death for Jon's life? 

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3 hours ago, hallam said:

I am rather surprised that people are asking if Mel is going to resurrect Jon because by my reading she just had her death scene.

Consider the clues that were left - Davos stares at the blood, Kingsblood. The camera lingers on the things on Mel's table which include a vial that contained some liquid. Davos, her fiercest critic says that there is nothing he doesn't think she could do.

Forget the Rattleshirt glamour from the book. Whatever spell is keeping Mel young, it isn't that spell. It is something much more powerful. She has taken the necklace off before and didn't turn old. So it wasn't just that that made her suddenly old. The much more obvious reading is that she is dying.

Mel has to die for the plot to continue. She is too powerful. Like Dumbledore or Gandalf, she can solve too many problems too easily. And if she stays around after Jon is brought back, Jon can never be in danger. Any time he dies, Mel will just have to give him another booster shot like Thoros did. Mel certainly can't be around when Jon is laying siege to Winterfell to find out his true parentage, she would look in the fires and know.

 

Stannis would like a word with you.

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2 hours ago, Fredwin said:

Melisandre doesn't need to die for her arc to complete, she certainly can disappear back to Asshai or whatever whenever she wants.

That being said, I don't think her arc is quite complete yet. They were showing the other side of her and her vulnerability for a reason, and I'm sure we'll get to see what that reason is.

Stuff doesn't have to blow up on Mythbusters, chairs don't need to be used as weapons in WWE, dogs don't need to lick their privates.

2 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

Arya needs to meet her again. And her death needs to happen by burning. Only this way. It is known.

I did think that. But the problem there is that all of Mel's predictions turn out to be wrong. If it was a Maggy the Frog prediction, I would say differently.

As for the burning, why do you say that. I definitely think book Mel gets burned because AA is born in Salt (Dragonstone) and fire (funeral pyre at the wall). Plus it is traditional to burn witches.

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Maybe I'm missing something but why would Mel need to die to resurrect Jon? One- Thoros could resurrect without death or kings blood. 2- even if we assume "only death can pay for life" or kings blood is needed, what about Shireens death? Shireen had kings blood and was sacrificed and the intended use of the sacrifice - stannis' victory- clearly didn't happen so shouldn't be magic resulting from Shireens death still be out there, to be used for something (like the slugs in the fire?) so why couldn't the magic from killing Shireens be used for Jon?

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17 minutes ago, nymeria_2321 said:

Maybe I'm missing something but why would Mel need to die to resurrect Jon? One- Thoros could resurrect without death or kings blood. 2- even if we assume "only death can pay for life" or kings blood is needed, what about Shireens death? Shireen had kings blood and was sacrificed and the intended use of the sacrifice - stannis' victory- clearly didn't happen so shouldn't be magic resulting from Shireens death still be out there, to be used for something (like the slugs in the fire?) so why couldn't the magic from killing Shireens be used for Jon?

Shireen's sacrifice wasn't for Stannis's victory, it was to end the storm. 

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My initial impression was that she had given up and was bedding down permanently. The contrast of Davos being like "don't worry boys, Melisandre's totally got something up her sleeve" immediately followed by Melisandre being all despondent and channeling Elisabeth I led me to think that they were throwing a wrench in the conventional wisdom about how Jon will come back. The interviews proved that this initial impression was incorrect, but I don't think it was completely off the wall to wonder about it.     

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3 hours ago, hallam said:

I did think that. But the problem there is that all of Mel's predictions turn out to be wrong. If it was a Maggy the Frog prediction, I would say differently.

As for the burning, why do you say that. I definitely think book Mel gets burned because AA is born in Salt (Dragonstone) and fire (funeral pyre at the wall). Plus it is traditional to burn witches.

Her predictions do not turn up wrong. It is how she interprets them is wrong. If she says they will meet again, I mean, there is no other way how this can happen.

Her burning so many innocent people for sacrifice just NEEDS to come full circle. I think one of the dragons will burn her in dragonflame in the show when Jon and Dany clash, but we shall see.

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"I see a darkness in you. And in that darkness, eyes staring back at me. Brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes... eyes you'll shut forever. We will meet again."

Is 'We" Arya and Mel or Arya and the eyes she sees?

Thing is, Mel really has to go from the series because she is way too powerful and Arya is the other side of the sea and clearly won't get to Winterfell for quite a while. She hasn't finished her training or killed off the faceless men yet.

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She has yet to say lines we got in the trailer. pretty sure the necklace was either just continuity error or she was charging her illusion or something as she was putting some potions in that water. as for the only death can pay for life unless we are missing something (which is completely possible as there is a lot in the books in those scenes implying something more)  thoros does it with no problem. 

I thought she would try to bring jon back from the dead and fail at first. 

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4 hours ago, Nymeria_Stark said:

I keep thinking about what Mirri Maas Duur told Daenerys in season 1... only death can pay for life. Mel kept saying there's power in king's blood... which means she's using some kind of blood magic! So her death for Jon's life? 

Har, I've been saying that to everyone at work all day.

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Mel is not nearly as powerful as the OP seems to think she is.

The last scene merely served to highlight her vulnerability, since the Show can't take us inside her POV like the books did. They had to do it visually.

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