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Lord Wraith

The Oberyn/Marwyn connection

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The Oberyn/Marwyn connection:

 

Quote

"Archmaester Marwyn's Book of Lost Books." He lifted his gaze from the page to study her. "Hotho brought me a copy from Oldtown. He has a daughter he would have me wed." Lord Rodrik tapped the book with a long nail. "See here? Marwyn claims to have found three pages of Signs and Portents, visions written down by the maiden daughter of Aenar Targaryen before the Doom came to Valyria. Does Lanny know that you are here?"

Archmaester Marwyn is one of the most mysterious characters in ASOIAF.  He gets named dropped as early as GOT before finally appearing in the end of AFFC.

 

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Marwyn, he named himself," the woman replied in the Common Tongue. "From the sea. Beyond the sea. The Seven Lands, he said. Sunset Lands. Where men are iron and dragons rule. He taught me this speech."

As quoted above he is also mentioned by Rodrick "The Reader" Lord of Harlaw. As well as by acolytes at the Citadel before appearing in Sam's POV. When Sam finals meets him he has three students. Alleras, Leo Tyrell, and Pate. Alleras is actually Sarella Sand a bastard of Oberyn Martell. Leo Tyrell is the younger son of the uncle of Mace Tyrell. Pate is actually Jaquen the Faceless Man. A very odd group to say the least.

I believe there is a connection between Marwyn and the Martells. The connection between the Tyrells and Faceless Men may play a part but that is beyond the scope of this post. I believe the connection between Marwyn and the Martells goes back to Sarella's father Oberyn.

Oberyn's oldest daughter is the daughter of a Oldtown whore and was born in 272. That means about a year earlier the young Prince of Dorne was hanging out in an Oldtown brothel. Considering that Oberyn would be only 12-13 at the time its a very odd occurance. I believe this is the first time that Oberyn would meet Marwyn, we are unsure of course when Marwyn became Archmaester or even how old he is.

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He has a mocking name for everyone, thought Pate, but he could not deny that Marwyn looked more a mastiff than a maester. As if he wants to bite you. The Mage was not like other maesters. People said that he kept company with whores and hedge wizards, talked with hairy Ibbenese and pitch-black Summer Islanders in their own tongues, and sacrificed to queer gods at the little sailors' temples down by the wharves. Men spoke of seeing him down in the undercity, in rat pits and black brothels, consorting with mummers, singers, sellswords, even beggars. Some even whispered that once he had killed a man with his fists.

Later at 16 Oberyn kills the Lord of Yronwood and is forced into exile from Dorne. Note its only from Dorne, I get the impression that people thinks he is exiled from all of Westeros but that doesn't happen. Now what happens next is a tad confusing timeline wise.

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After, Oberyn left Dorne to explore the Free Cities. There he dabbled in the dark arts, learning the secrets of poisoning and far more, only to return to the Seven Kingdoms to study at the Citadel. He stayed there long enough to forge six links of a maester’s chain, and then he moved on again. He fought in the Disputed Lands, rode with a mercenary company for a time, and had many exploits of love, battles, wars, and more. - From the App

 

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He had traveled in the Free Cities, learning the poisoner's trade and perhaps arts darker still, if rumors could be believed. The Red Viper went to Oldtown, thence across to the narrow sea to Lys, though none dared call it exile. He had studied at the Citadel, going so far as to forge six links of a maester's chain before he grew bored. He had soldiered in the Disputed Lands across the narrow sea, riding with the Second Sons for a time before forming his own company
.

So Oberyn spent time at the Citadel, traveled the Free Cities, and soldiered in the Disputed Lands, I have estimated the times in a previous post. That's twice Oberyn has gone to Oldtown. Now there is still really nothing to directly connect Oberyn and Marwyn despite conjecture and name similarity, both end in -yn.

In my first quote its noted that Marwyn found three pages of Signs and Portents by Daenys the Dreamer in Essos. There in only one place in Essos that I think those texts would exist and that is in Volantis. Specifically behind the Black Walls of Old Volantis.

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Across the wide blue expanse of the Rhoyne, he could see the Black Wall that had been raised by the Valyrians when Volantis was no more than an outpost of their empire: a great oval of fused stone two hundred feet high and so thick that six four-horse chariots could race around its top abreast, as they did each year to celebrate the founding of the city. Outlanders, foreigners, and freedmen were not allowed inside the Black Wall save at the invitation of those who dwelt within, scions of the Old Blood who could trace their ancestry back to Valyria itself.

 

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Tyrion had read much and more of dragons through the years. The greater part of those accounts were idle tales and could not be relied on, and the books that Illyrio had provided them were not the ones he might have wished for. What he really wanted was the complete text of The Fires of the Freehold, Galendro's history of Valyria. No complete copy was known to Westeros, however; even the Citadel's lacked twenty-seven scrolls. They must have a library in Old Volantis, surely. I may find a better copy there, if I can find a way inside the Black Walls to the city's heart.

Now Tyrion is one of the cleverest character's in ASOIAF and easily the smartest of the POV's. Now Tyrion thinks that old scrolls from the Freehold would be found behind the Black Walls of Old Volantis and I tend to agree. However as noted no one is permitted entry behind the Black Walls unless it is from one of the Old Blood of Volantis.

Now how does this all relate to Oberyn and Marwyn. I speculate that Oberyn spent time at the Citadel with Marwyn before or afterwards they spent some time travelling the Free Cities. Oberyn was able to get them access behind the Black Walls, how? Nymeria Sand, Oberyn's 2nd daughter, was born from the noblest blood of Old Volantis.

 

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With her high cheekbones, full lips, and milk-pale skin, she had all the beauty that her elder sister lacked . . . but Obara's mother had been an Oldtown whore, whilst Nym was born from the noblest blood of old Volantis.

That's the smoking gun, well smoking scrolls anyway. Oberyn was Marwyn's access to the library behind the Black Walls of Old Volantis where he found the three pages of Signs and Portents that he used to write his book.

So people what do think?
 

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9 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

The Oberyn/Marwyn connection:

 

Archmaester Marwyn is one of the most mysterious characters in ASOIAF.  He gets named dropped as early as GOT before finally appearing in the end of AFFC.

 

As quoted above he is also mentioned by Rodrick "The Reader" Lord of Harlaw. As well as by acolytes at the Citadel before appearing in Sam's POV. When Sam finals meets him he has three students. Alleras, Leo Tyrell, and Pate. Alleras is actually Sarella Sand a bastard of Oberyn Martell. Leo Tyrell is the younger son of the uncle of Mace Tyrell. Pate is actually Jaquen the Faceless Man. A very odd group to say the least.

I believe there is a connection between Marwyn and the Martells. The connection between the Tyrells and Faceless Men may play a part but that is beyond the scope of this post. I believe the connection between Marwyn and the Martells goes back to Sarella's father Oberyn.

Oberyn's oldest daughter is the daughter of a Oldtown whore and was born in 272. That means about a year earlier the young Prince of Dorne was hanging out in an Oldtown brothel. Considering that Oberyn would be only 12-13 at the time its a very odd occurance. I believe this is the first time that Oberyn would meet Marwyn, we are unsure of course when Marwyn became Archmaester or even how old he is.

Later at 16 Oberyn kills the Lord of Yronwood and is forced into exile from Dorne. Note its only from Dorne, I get the impression that people thinks he is exiled from all of Westeros but that doesn't happen. Now what happens next is a tad confusing timeline wise.

 

So Oberyn spent time at the Citadel, traveled the Free Cities, and soldiered in the Disputed Lands, I have estimated the times in a previous post. That's twice Oberyn has gone to Oldtown. Now there is still really nothing to directly connect Oberyn and Marwyn despite conjecture and name similarity, both end in -yn.

In my first quote its noted that Marwyn found three pages of Signs and Portents by Daenys the Dreamer in Essos. There in only one place in Essos that I think those texts would exist and that is in Volantis. Specifically behind the Black Walls of Old Volantis.

 

Now Tyrion is one of the cleverest character's in ASOIAF and easily the smartest of the POV's. Now Tyrion thinks that old scrolls from the Freehold would be found behind the Black Walls of Old Volantis and I tend to agree. However as noted no one is permitted entry behind the Black Walls unless it is from one of the Old Blood of Volantis.

Now how does this all relate to Oberyn and Marwyn. I speculate that Oberyn spent time at the Citadel with Marwyn before or afterwards they spent some time travelling the Free Cities. Oberyn was able to get them access behind the Black Walls, how? Nymeria Sand, Oberyn's 2nd daughter, was born from the noblest blood of Old Volantis.

 

That's the smoking gun, well smoking scrolls anyway. Oberyn was Marwyn's access to the library behind the Black Walls of Old Volantis where he found the three pages of Signs and Portents that he used to write his book.

So people what do think?
 

It seems like Oberyn could already trace his blood to old Valyria through the Targs, surely his blood is at least as noble as anyone in Volantis who descends from a non Dragon riding family whereas Oberyn can say he descends from a dragon riding family.

Edit: Tho surely he could have fathered Nym while there to make her "pure" Valyrian.

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2 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

It seems like Oberyn could already trace his blood to old Valyria through the Targs, surely his blood is at least as noble as anyone in Volantis who descends from a non Dragon riding family whereas Oberyn can say he descends from a dragon riding family.

Edit: Tho surely he could have fathered Nym while there to make her "pure" Valyrian.

Well its hard to judge how "purist" the elite of Old Volantis would be about admittance behind the Black Walls. Perhaps thought his Targ blood relations he would have been cleared but his Volantene paramour (Nym's mom) certainly could have invited them in.


Either way Oberyn was able to get access behind the Black Walls of Old Volantis for himself and Marwyn. Does the rest of it pan out for you?

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6 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Well its hard to judge how "purist" the elite of Old Volantis would be about admittance behind the Black Walls. Perhaps thought his Targ blood relations he would have been cleared but his Volantene paramour (Nym's mom) certainly could have invited them in.


Either way Oberyn was able to get access behind the Black Walls of Old Volantis for himself and Marwyn. Does the rest of it pan out for you?

Yes it does, especially since he has been linked in with Danaerys storyline via Sams last chapter. We absolutely need something about him in the future, even if that something is a shot of the boat sinking or some of its crew, he was mentioned in AGOT so I don't think that is likely.  5 Whole books of consideration, he HAS to be worth something.  GRRM definitely began to think of him again in AFFC with Rodriks statements, so I believe he will have a connection and I don't think what you propose is crazy, tho I don't think it's proven either, i do think it's a good find that even if GRRM didn't intend is entirely reasonable and could be considered true by people without being confirmed or denied.

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I actually like the idea and it makes it all the more interesting that one of his students is his "niece/nephew". I would love to know more about Marwyn, especially since I had previously read a theory where it is said that he is a Martell. If that theory is true, and Marwyn is a Martell, would he even need to have Oberyn with him to get in? 

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I enjoyed this theory, well laid out and something I haven't really considered before (which is obviously hard to accomplish as with most people on the site.)

I could see it being the case, my question is though, how will this affect the story moving forward? If this is true, i think you have to put a little bit to many vague pieces together for it to maybe work, if it's just for world building purposes? But if it's just one of those things that hasn't come to the surface yet then I could see it being the case. If that makes sense?

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4 minutes ago, The Dames do Moan said:

I enjoyed this theory, well laid out and something I haven't really considered before (which is obviously hard to accomplish as with most people on the site.)

I could see it being the case, my question is though, how will this affect the story moving forward? If this is true, i think you have to put a little bit to many vague pieces together for it to maybe work, if it's just for world building purposes? But if it's just one of those things that hasn't come to the surface yet then I could see it being the case. If that makes sense?

I could see it all having to do with TPTWP/AA/LH theories

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When did Marwyn write the book of lost books?  I ask because if it was recent enough, it's possible that oberyn had no involvement, and Nym sent the pages to him with Sarella.

The Sand Snakes are obviously having a very different dynamic with the Martells than Oberyn was no? Just trying to think out who exactly would be colluding and why.

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23 hours ago, Princess of Dragonflies said:

I actually like the idea and it makes it all the more interesting that one of his students is his "niece/nephew". I would love to know more about Marwyn, especially since I had previously read a theory where it is said that he is a Martell. If that theory is true, and Marwyn is a Martell, would he even need to have Oberyn with him to get in? 

Well I did write a theory on Olenna Redwynne being Lewyn Martell's possible paramour. I speculate that Marwyn could be the product of that union but its all speculation. Nothing to really confirm it yet. 

Still the idea of Oberyn and Uncle Marwyn travelling the Free Cities sounds like a great story.

1 hour ago, gregg22 said:

When did Marwyn write the book of lost books?  I ask because if it was recent enough, it's possible that oberyn had no involvement, and Nym sent the pages to him with Sarella.

The Sand Snakes are obviously having a very different dynamic with the Martells than Oberyn was no? Just trying to think out who exactly would be colluding and why.

We aren't give a date on when the book is written. We know from AFFC prologue that at some point before the story starts Marwyn travelled across Essos going as far as Asshai. It isn't a short trip however.

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On 26/04/2016 at 0:31 AM, Lord Wraith said:

The Oberyn/Marwyn connection:
 

It's solid. Really solid. But I believe you're giving Marwyn either too much or too little credit:

Either Marwyn told Oberyn to kill the Lord of Yronwood in a "questionable manner" and then go to Volantis, and when in Volantis to bed a noblewoman until she whelped a little snake, just so Marwyn can enter in the heart of Old volantis;

Or Marwyn just caught wind of that boy Oberyn's exciting life and sent him a "hey man, can I go to Volantis book-searching?" letter.

Be it as it may, I like your theory. :D

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Surely possible for Marwyn and Oberyn to be linked, by blood or purpose. Love the Obara connection, had not put the Volantene blood connection together before. Would make for a great side story. As it is in ASOIAF would probably be a plot device giving only the understanding that they were compatriots of sorts.

What about the Marwyn name drop in GOT? Am I remembering correctly he was Assiah teaching?? Would that put him in the very far east before Oberyn was of age?  

Interesting post Lord Wraith.

 

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Awesome theory.  Not sure where it goes.  Some thoughts though:  If the Citadel is all "Anti-Magic Club" as we believe they are; there is a reason they tolerate or even permit Marwyn to exist; an Arch Maester known as The Mage of all things.  It is known he keeps the candle ya?

1) He is so super powerful they are afraid of him.

2) They hired the FM to off him; hence Pate=Jaqen

3) They have no clue.  

If he makes it to Dany alive his purpose will be to bring her up to speed on all the prophecy and magic and potential in her past and blood I would guess.  

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On 4/29/2016 at 9:25 AM, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

It's solid. Really solid. But I believe you're giving Marwyn either too much or too little credit:

Either Marwyn told Oberyn to kill the Lord of Yronwood in a "questionable manner" and then go to Volantis, and when in Volantis to bed a noblewoman until she whelped a little snake, just so Marwyn can enter in the heart of Old volantis;

Or Marwyn just caught wind of that boy Oberyn's exciting life and sent him a "hey man, can I go to Volantis book-searching?" letter.

Be it as it may, I like your theory. :D

Thanks. 

On 4/29/2016 at 0:12 PM, jthurman14 said:

Surely possible for Marwyn and Oberyn to be linked, by blood or purpose. Love the Obara connection, had not put the Volantene blood connection together before. Would make for a great side story. As it is in ASOIAF would probably be a plot device giving only the understanding that they were compatriots of sorts.

What about the Marwyn name drop in GOT? Am I remembering correctly he was Assiah teaching?? Would that put him in the very far east before Oberyn was of age?  

Interesting post Lord Wraith.

 

Marwyn taught MMD at some point and we know they both visited Asshai.

On 4/29/2016 at 1:21 PM, CrastorsLivingSon said:

Awesome theory.  Not sure where it goes.  Some thoughts though:  If the Citadel is all "Anti-Magic Club" as we believe they are; there is a reason they tolerate or even permit Marwyn to exist; an Arch Maester known as The Mage of all things.  It is known he keeps the candle ya?

1) He is so super powerful they are afraid of him.

2) They hired the FM to off him; hence Pate=Jaqen

3) They have no clue.  

If he makes it to Dany alive his purpose will be to bring her up to speed on all the prophecy and magic and potential in her past and blood I would guess.  

Well it would stand to reason that there has always been a Archmaester of the "Higher Mysteries" its just not a very popular topic in present day Westeros. Only 1 in 1000 maesters have the link of Valyrian Steel. I think Marwyn was working with Jaquen much like he worked with MMD in years pass.

The Westeros App says Marwyn has been keeping most of his magical studies hidden from the other Archmaesters.

 

 

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I don't have the books at hand, forgive me if this is way out there. When Briene meets Randyl Tarly was there any similarity in that description and the description we get of Marwyn? I remember Marwyn was described as scary looking and strong of body. I assumed Randyl was at least a fit soldier.

Also Are there any clues to a connection to the martels/dorne and Marwyn or blood magics of the east?

 

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On 4/26/2016 at 8:31 PM, Lord Wraith said:

The Oberyn/Marwyn connection:

So people what do think?

There is no connection. Marwyn has spent most of his years as a Maester traveling the world. He "could" have met Oberyn in Oldtown and he "could" have  met Oberyn in Essos, but since there is nothing in the books of their meeting I have to say nope.

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I like it, I've considered that its not a coincidence that Sarella is the one closest to Marwyn of all the acolytes and is privy to such information as we learn in the final Sam chapter. The fact that both Marwyn & Oberyn were known to travel Essos adds to the possibility. I personally think there's also a connection between Marwyn and the Cinnamon Wind & Summer Islanders, and clearly Sarella proves Oberyn had at least one connection :P

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