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jons squire

Why are Davos etc protecting Jons body?

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21 minutes ago, sarah.jenice said:

I think the easiest thing to do is stop expecting logic. :P

@bb1180 nailed it. Plot convenience.

Honestly, I agree with everything you said. It wasn't so long ago that Jon was elected LC over Thorne, but these 4-5 Brothers are it for Team Jon. I guess there were a few boos when Thorne said he killed Jon but compare that reaction to when Mormont gets killed. Speaking of Craster's, what happened to all of the Brothers who answered Jon's plea for volunteers to join him in taking out the mutiners or the ones who followed him to Hardhome? 

Seems like most of the loyal pro-Jon Brothers have fallen into a plot hole along with Ser Davos' memories of Stannis and Shireen, Dany's notoriety among the Dothraki and Ramsay's dogs that were tracking Theon and Sansa.

How many Brothers went with Jon to Craster's? How many came out? Its was even worse for Hardshome, I think besides Edd and Jon only couple of Brothers made it out not that there were a lot to start with and I am pretty sure they are in that room with Jon's body or keeping quiet.

You can't compare Craster and Jon's situation. First of all, Night Watch fought against the Wildlings for thousands of years, they consider it their purpose to protect Wall against Wildlings. All situation with Craster's keep, battle at Castle Black was against Wildings and Thorne, Ollie were all with Jon and against Wildlings.  Jon was elected and respected because of his actions against Wildlings and Castle Black battle against Mance.  Its when Jon changed his direction and said Wildlings should be let thru the Wall and helped when Most of the Watch either decided to betray him or silently disagreed with him

I suspect only survivors of Hardshome were sympathetic to Jon because they saw what the actual danger was. Most of surviving Nights Watch never saw the White Walkers nor the wights, they only have Sam, Jon's, Edd, and Mels words.

 

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32 minutes ago, sarah.jenice said:

Speaking of Craster's, what happened to all of the Brothers who answered Jon's plea for volunteers to join him in taking out the mutiners or the ones who followed him to Hardhome? 

Seems like most of the loyal pro-Jon Brothers have fallen into a plot hole along with Ser Davos' memories of Stannis and Shireen, Dany's notoriety among the Dothraki and Ramsay's dogs that were tracking Theon and Sansa.

I don't neccasarily disagree with what your saying overall. But regarding the mission the Crasters. I believe they said only 11 went to Crasters and only 7 came back. Knowing that a minimum of 2 of those 7 are now dead (Grenn and Jon) then that would only leave 5 people left max from that trip. Likely they would be the same ones that followed with him to hardhome and some died there but that last parts just speculation.

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3 minutes ago, The Dames do Moan said:

I don't neccasarily disagree with what your saying overall. But regarding the mission the Crasters. I believe they said only 11 went to Crasters and only 7 came back. Knowing that a minimum of 2 of those 7 are now dead (Grenn and Jon) then that would only leave 5 people left max from that trip. Likely they would be the same ones that followed with him to hardhome and some died there but that last parts just speculation.

Pyp is dead as well and Sam has gone to be a Maester. There really aren't that many of his close friends left.

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6 minutes ago, Clash said:

Pyp is dead as well and Sam has gone to be a Maester. There really aren't that many of his close friends left.

For sure they are dead as well and maester Aemon too who was one of the leadership figures who supported him prior to his LC role.

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So why does Thorne run away quickly and abandon the body after the stabbing, instead of staying there and claim their action, if a strong majority is definitely in favour of that? I find no logic whatsoever in the immediate decision to lock inside a room with a few guys.

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Plot contrivance to satisfy fans who wanted the Jon question somehow addressed in Episode 1; moreover, poor planning resulted in a need to set up transitions and continuity that will involve Davos and Edd playing larger roles in the scheme of Season 6.

Viewers needed to see Mel’s glamor exposed because she will use her glamor to disguise Edd as Jon so that Davos can escort Jon’s corpse to Winterfell to honor Stark tradition of burial.  Thorne and company want to burn his corpse; instead, Jon Snow will confront them himself.  Ghost, of course, will not be keen on the glamored Edd as his master.

Corpse Jon and living Ghost will be involved in a dreamscape via Bran and BR, and viewers will see Jon’s reaction to the truth of his parentage.

After Ramsay kills “glamored” Jon Snow again at WF, Bran will reanimate his bastard brother as King of the North – Jon Stark Targaryen, who will then slay Ramsay.  Moreover, Bran will turn stone to flesh and raise a Stark army from the crypts to battle beside his brother.

See below:

In another interview Hempstead hints at Bran taking on the role of “kingmaker,” to “expect lots of magic,” and “extraordinary enabling abilities” that could cause an “earthquake” in Westeros. What kind of earthquake? Hempstead doesn’t say"

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-6-bran-stark-confirms-return-and-weighs-in-on-the-jon-snow-debate-10386913.html

BR will die so that Jon will rise, but BR will warg Ghost as his final life, making the direwolf an Ice Dragon who will sprout wings, have a wolf face, and red eyes.  Ghost may breathe fire too.

Just my fanciful speculations, of course!

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25 minutes ago, grey_scale said:

So why does Thorne run away quickly and abandon the body after the stabbing, instead of staying there and claim their action, if a strong majority is definitely in favour of that? I find no logic whatsoever in the immediate decision to lock inside a room with a few guys.

Because standing around in the freezing cold is better than going into a warm messroom and explaining what you did to everyone there? Obviously they could have stood around in the snow and high fived and fist pumped with shouts of "Yeah", "We did it", "Yeah". But with no audience it would probably get old real quick.

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Aside plot convenience, i figured Thorne means to kill all of them including Davos, because he is scared people will know him as a traitor. Just my 2 cents, but if i was Thorne, I would be scared of that especially being in the North. Just reason or not, the North does not hold kindly to Oathbreakers, ie The hour of the Wolf. 

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13 hours ago, ser charles candle said:

Aside plot convenience, i figured Thorne means to kill all of them including Davos, because he is scared people will know him as a traitor. Just my 2 cents, but if i was Thorne, I would be scared of that especially being in the North. Just reason or not, the North does not hold kindly to Oathbreakers, ie The hour of the Wolf. 

The only problem with that is that pretty much the entire Nights Watch know who killed Jon. Granted none of them (other than those holed up with Davos) are openly hostile to Thorne but the possibility is always there.

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4 hours ago, Clash said:

The only problem with that is that pretty much the entire Nights Watch know who killed Jon. Granted none of them (other than those holed up with Davos) are openly hostile to Thorne but the possibility is always there.

By not doing anything it's like the are part of it with Thorne, what's the saying guilty by association. I'm trying to think why else would he want to kill Davos. 

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10 minutes ago, ser charles candle said:

By not doing anything it's like the are part of it with Thorne, what's the saying guilty by association. I'm trying to think why else would he want to kill Davos. 

Davos would be the most credible witness and would have the power to do something about it. Random  members of the Nights Watch are as you say; guity by association and pretty powerless to do anything in any case. Get rid of Davos and Thorne can control the narrative. There may be some mutterings, but perhaps those muttering loudest have been placed nearest the door with the crossbows. :)

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1) They're stuck in a room with it and no way to burn it (also the smoke would kill them. again, stuck in a smallish room with it).

2) MAYBE, now that Edd's off to get Tormund, they wanna show it off to the wildlings as a "look!  those assholes killed him!" in order to rile them up against Thorne and get the wildlings to help them.

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On 4/27/2016 at 9:25 PM, sarah.jenice said:

plot hole along with Ser Davos' memories of Stannis and Shireen, 

I'm sorry but that complain doesn't make any sense at all. The scene starts with Davos looking dejected in his chambers and then he finds Jon's body. Why would he bring up those two in the middle of a mutiny crisis while he, Edd and the others expect to die? Why would he talk about it with guys he barely knows and for what purpose? Same with Melisandre, she's broken, why would they suddenly talk about good old Stan before Jon's corpse?

Seriously.

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I just took at as they started out thinking maybe they could do something to save him, figured out they could not save him, and then wanted to keep the body for being further messed up like cutting off his head and mounting it on a spike or something. Now all of the open jon supporters are now in that room.  

41 minutes ago, Les Météores D said:

I'm sorry but that complain doesn't make any sense at all. The scene starts with Davos looking dejected in his chambers and then he finds Jon's body. Why would he bring up those two in the middle of a mutiny crisis while he, Edd and the others expect to die? Why would he talk about it with guys he barely knows and for what purpose? Same with Melisandre, she's broken, why would they suddenly talk about good old Stan before Jon's corpse?

Seriously.

 He probably look dejected because he is thinking about stannis and the daughter but there is no reason to bring it up now. there are more pressing issue at the moment. 

8 hours ago, Clash said:

The only problem with that is that pretty much the entire Nights Watch know who killed Jon. Granted none of them (other than those holed up with Davos) are openly hostile to Thorne but the possibility is always there.

you would want to kill those openly hostile towards you like these guys are cause last time i checked the last two lord commanders were killed by their own men. 

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To answer the question in the title.

They're not protecting Jon Snow's body. They're protecting themselves.

Davos and Jon Snow's few remaining friends didn't want to leave his body outside for the crows and maybe Davos thought bigger, sensed some trouble. They realised he'd been killed by other nightswatchmen (thank you, Alliser Thorne for that helpful sign)... so who can they trust?

They want to avange the mutiny, the murder of their Lord Commander. Jon Snow's body is just incidental to them because they have no idea of any possible ressurection. It's a happy accident, really, that Jon Snow's body ends up in the same room with Davos and NWmen who're not OK with killing a Lord Commander.

Things might get very interesting.

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Davos also has great respect for leadership and I think genuinely liked and respected Jon. He is a great judge of character and obviously has a major role to play in the ending of this saga. I am sure he knows that Alliser is a dick and understands the trouble that is ahead. 

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On 27 April 2016 at 3:25 AM, sarah.jenice said:

I think the easiest thing to do is stop expecting logic. :P

@bb1180 nailed it. Plot convenience.

Honestly, I agree with everything you said. It wasn't so long ago that Jon was elected LC over Thorne, but these 4-5 Brothers are it for Team Jon. I guess there were a few boos when Thorne said he killed Jon but compare that reaction to when Mormont gets killed. Speaking of Craster's, what happened to all of the Brothers who answered Jon's plea for volunteers to join him in taking out the mutiners or the ones who followed him to Hardhome? 

Seems like most of the loyal pro-Jon Brothers have fallen into a plot hole along with Ser Davos' memories of Stannis and Shireen, Dany's notoriety among the Dothraki and Ramsay's dogs that were tracking Theon and Sansa.

I'm so glad to have read your comment because the "plot holes" in season 5 were really bothering me and it looks like season 6 will be full of them too.

It really amuses me the way loyal viewers make up excuses and theories to explain away the poorly thought out changes B&D make to the story as written by GRRM when the simple answer is THEY KEEP STUFFING UP.

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On 27/4/2016 at 7:07 AM, bb1180 said:

Its presented in such a way that we're supposed to believe that they're not actually there protecting Jon's body,  but rather,  they're afraid that if they come out,  Thorne will have them killed as well.   Likewise,  its also presented in such a way that Thorne only wants them to surrender,  not that it has anything to do with Jon's corpse. 

Of course,  that's just a convenient way for the producers to have them protect Jon's corpse without actually seeming to be protecting Jon's corpse.

But it makes no sense.

If Jon is dead, why then just don't deliver the body for them to burn him? "Look, Thorne: we just want our former friend's body be respected".

The thing is, the odd thing here is Jon's body. The story needs Jon's body be preserved, but there is no real logic here. Like, why don't they immediately burn it. Don't they know they can't just let bodies around because they can just rise up? :dunno:

As I see it, I think that in the books, Stannis will eventually die and Davos will join Jon's cause, specially if he is somehow bringing Rickon. He knows fighting the Others was important to Stannis, and Stannis himself probably spoke kindly of Jon Snow. All of that is enough for Davos to feel that he MUST help Jon. But none of this is in the show. He's there because Martin probably told them "after Stannis dies, Davos joins Jon". And that's it. They got there without giving Davos any real cause for his loyalty.

Now, where are the wildlings...? Mole town, surely, but this isn' tin the shows. We shouldn't be around guessing and using the books, they HAVE to tell us.

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A thought I had is, Why is Davos so sure that the wildings are going to help them.  Yeah they owe a lot to Jon Snow, but he's dead, there's nothing more he can do for them. 

So my two thoughts are: 

1.They have a lot of respect for Jon and want to honor him by protecting his dead body, and this also will help against the conflict that will rise between them and Thornes supporters.

2.  This is a cop out the producers are making so Jon Snows body stays protected for him to be resurrected.

 

I guess the reason why this came to mind is,  Why would the wildings want to help Davos,  Why not leave Castle Black after hearing Jon Snow is dead, and prepare to defend themselves against the white walkers.

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1 hour ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

The thing is, the odd thing here is Jon's body. The story needs Jon's body be preserved, but there is no real logic here. Like, why don't they immediately burn it. Don't they know they can't just let bodies around because they can just rise up? :dunno:

This has been said before. The only wights that have risen up south of the wall are the ones they brought with them thinking they were 'just' the dead bodies of their comrades. So far, no white walker has been able to cross the wall because of the magic used in its construction. That means that since Jon wasn't killed by a white walker and there can be no white walker present ot raise him, that possibility doesn't exist.

Coupled with that is the still general disbelief in the existence of the white walkers. They don't see the threat and don't see the obvious need to bring the wildlings south of the wall. Hence the murder of Jon.

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