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jons squire

Why are Davos etc protecting Jons body?

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1 hour ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

I'm using the books to explain why I think the logic they used was used. But you don't need to.

- We've seen Thoros bring back Beric.

- We know Melisandre knows this.

- We have now Jon being dead.

- Melisandre is now close to Jon.

--- > Logical conclusion WITHOUT even reading the books: Melisandre might resurrect Jon.

You don't need to read this: the show is somehow HINTING TO IT (even though sometimes they ignore their own hints...).

Yet, Davos doesn't know this. Davos only knows Jon has been killed. That's all. This "for instinct" makes no sense. Check his signs takes one minute. He's either dead or not. If he's not dead, then he should have said so... and if he's not dead, why is the purpose of Melisandre? And if he's dead, why protecting his body? What purpose does it makes protect a dead body? Shouldn't be their first priority to simply burn it before he can return undead?

Now Davos knows Melisandre can birth shadows. He knows Melisandre has failed twice (Balon being alive, Stannis being AA). Davos is expecting something miraculous will bring Jon back, and this "miracle" is called the plot. We all are assuming Davos is expecting Mel bringing back because we are expecting it: the show is telling us. But Davos doesn't watch the show.

 

 

I don't think davos is protecting his body.

Davos didn't check to see if he was alive or dead or anything. I don't think davos  KNOWS he is dead till he sees all the blood. (he probably get it intellectually but i don't think it really sets in till then. I don't think he emotional gets that about stannis and shireen either)   it was a emotional moment and  they were all in shock. there is a "What are we going to do now" moment.  Now Jon's body is just where all of the men openly hostile to alister have grouped up. 

i don't think davos would abandon these guys to just die and i  don't think he has any place left to go on the show but alister might kill him anyway after he was scene being so friendly with jon.

 

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1 hour ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

Yet, Davos doesn't know this. Davos only knows Jon has been killed. That's all. This "for instinct" makes no sense. Check his signs takes one minute. He's either dead or not. If he's not dead, then he should have said so... and if he's not dead, why is the purpose of Melisandre? And if he's dead, why protecting his body? What purpose does it makes protect a dead body? Shouldn't be their first priority to simply burn it before he can return undead?

At this point in the scene it's not about protecting the body but Edd and the guys loyal to Jon, who said they want to retaliate. Davos reads the situation: either he leaves now or stays and try other options rather than a certain death (for all of them, he doesn't trust the mutineers). It's been established that he doesn't like Thorne, it's been implied he shares the same view as Stannis and Jon that the wildlings should be fighting for the 7K against the WW, it's also implied he probably believes Thorne isn't a man that can see the big picture and get the job done. Davos is principled and makes a choice, his options: Melisandre's magic and the wildlings. Why would he give up on protecting the Wall and the 7K now? because Stannis died... so to hell with it? 

Now Davos knows Melisandre can birth shadows. He knows Melisandre has failed twice (Balon being alive, Stannis being AA). Davos is expecting something miraculous will bring Jon back, and this "miracle" is called the plot. We all are assuming Davos is expecting Mel bringing back because we are expecting it: the show is telling us. But Davos doesn't watch the show.

The resurrection is completely irrelevant here because, again, it's about protecting the livings in that room and perhaps also about trying to stop Thorne from taking over the Wall, desperate move maybe but at least he's willing to give it a try. The audience sees the scene differently because we know about Thoros etc, but never ever in the scene or the dialogues Davos refers to Jon's rez. Whether you dislike that narrative choice or not doesn't mean it's rubbish or that it doesn't make sense. Could it be different? sure. Could it be better? perhaps yes, perhaps no. Bottom line is: there's no plot hole. 

 

 

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13 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

But it makes no sense.

If Jon is dead, why then just don't deliver the body for them to burn him? "Look, Thorne: we just want our former friend's body be respected".

The thing is, the odd thing here is Jon's body. The story needs Jon's body be preserved, but there is no real logic here. Like, why don't they immediately burn it. Don't they know they can't just let bodies around because they can just rise up? :dunno:

 

In the show,  its presented in a manner such that it has nothing to do with Jon's corpse,  but rather,  we're supposed to believe that its all about those in the room who are/were loyal to Jon.  You're right,  it doesn't make that much sense if you stop and think about it.  The producers are counting on the fact that most people won't stop to think about it.  Its nothing more than a convenient, semi-plausible plot device to allow the producers to buy time until they decide Jon should be resurrected.  

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3 minutes ago, bb1180 said:

In the show,  its presented in a manner such that it has nothing to do with Jon's corpse,  but rather,  we're supposed to believe that its all about those in the room who are/were loyal to Jon.  You're right,  it doesn't make that much sense if you stop and think about it.  The producers are counting on the fact that most people won't stop to think about it.  Its nothing more than a convenient, semi-plausible plot device to allow the producers to buy time until they decide Jon should be resurrected.  

Hello? The producers need to buy time?

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2 minutes ago, Clash said:

Hello? The producers need to buy time?

In this case,  yes,  because the alternative is to just leave Jon out in the snow to be thrown on a funeral pyre.  They had to find some reason to prevent that from happening.  By putting his corpse in the same room as Davos and the others,   that allows them the time they need to develop a story to support his resurrection.  

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15 minutes ago, bb1180 said:

In this case,  yes,  because the alternative is to just leave Jon out in the snow to be thrown on a funeral pyre.  They had to find some reason to prevent that from happening.  By putting his corpse in the same room as Davos and the others,   that allows them the time they need to develop a story to support his resurrection.  

Apologies, I read that as they were trying to work out what would happen next :D

That's why they did it alright, but it's not an unreasonable scenario that the body would be brought indoors in the first place.

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1 hour ago, Clash said:

Apologies, I read that as they were trying to work out what would happen next :D

That's why they did it alright, but it's not an unreasonable scenario that the body would be brought indoors in the first place.

Not a problem.  Reading over it again,  I can understand how it could be taken that way,  but it wasn't intended to convey criticism. 

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On ‎4‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 7:11 AM, jons squire said:

Apologies if I missed it but why are Davos, Edd and loyal NW guarding Jons body and what does Thorne want to do with it?
 

 

Darn good question.  There was no reason to protect a corpse. 

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4 hours ago, bb1180 said:

In the show,  its presented in a manner such that it has nothing to do with Jon's corpse,  but rather,  we're supposed to believe that its all about those in the room who are/were loyal to Jon.  You're right,  it doesn't make that much sense if you stop and think about it.  The producers are counting on the fact that most people won't stop to think about it.  Its nothing more than a convenient, semi-plausible plot device to allow the producers to buy time until they decide Jon should be resurrected.  

Yes, they want to delay whatever happens to Jon for a few episodes and certainly the rationale for Davos and Co. to take and protect Jon's body hasn't been adequately explained, but there's no chance they believed show watchers would just miss out on that point :)

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7 hours ago, Sam2Sexy said:

Darn good question.  There was no reason to protect a corpse. 

Did anyone say they were protecting his body?

I don't remember anyone even mentioning his body after Davos said "Bring him inside". Would Davos even know that there was bad blood between Thorne and Jon? It was only when Edd said "Thorne did this" that he realised they were in any danger.

I know we're beyond the books now, but is it likely that GRRM will do anything different when he eventually finishes TWoW. In fact should we not be speculating on what that might be if people think it should have been done differently.

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Last time I'll bother because it's hilariously ludicrous, there are so many scenes lacking logic yet you pick this one? 

Once they're inside and they lock the door the issue isn't about Jon's body it's about the mutiny. What side they're on, what decisions they'll make for themselves, what they stand for. Davos included because it's freaking Davos, if it were Jaime or Daario then yes, it wouldn't make sense character wise. Even so, even if Davos' decision is questionable to you, how many times did you want to jump through the books and talk some sense to Ned, Robb or Cat because of certain decisions they've made? I did 1000000 times. 

It's not the show's fault if don't listen to the actual dialogues and it's not the media's problem if you can't interpret images and sounds that are pretty easy to understand. Like the very moment Davos took a side against Thorne by getting Edd to bring the wildlings in.

They're still some people asking, to this day, why Fredo prayed in the rowboat during the fishing trip. Does that mean that scene in the Godfather 2 doesn't make any sense because you can't fill the blanks or don't understand what the scene is implying to?

 

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3 hours ago, Les Météores D said:

They're still some people asking, to this day, why Fredo prayed in the rowboat during the fishing trip. Does that mean that scene in the Godfather 2 doesn't make any sense because you can't fill the blanks or don't understand what the scene is implying to?

That's a really bad example, Fredo literally states aloud that he does that for luck. It's possible to read into the scene other underlying motivations, but the audience isn't asked to come up with their own reasons for what the character is doing.

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37 minutes ago, Sir Loin Steak said:

That's a really bad example, Fredo literally states aloud that he does that for luck. It's possible to read into the scene other underlying motivations, but the audience isn't asked to come up with their own reasons for what the character is doing.

It's not actually. You're ponting out what he actually said. It's in the dialogue yet people are still asking why he prayed. People are asking (it's in the thread title even) why Davos is protecting Jon's body. Not one person in the two scenes involved made any mention of protection. Not once, not ever. In fact it's not mentioned as a body ever. Davos said "help me get him inside" which could indicate that he's not even sure that Jon is dead.

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1 hour ago, Clash said:

It's not actually. You're ponting out what he actually said. It's in the dialogue yet people are still asking why he prayed. People are asking (it's in the thread title even) why Davos is protecting Jon's body. Not one person in the two scenes involved made any mention of protection. Not once, not ever. In fact it's not mentioned as a body ever. Davos said "help me get him inside" which could indicate that he's not even sure that Jon is dead.

That's you creating an explanation, and one that's quite implausible given that Jon is very clearly dead when Davos finds the body: lot's of stab wounds, has visibly bled out, no pulse, no breath, no movement, etc. Furthermore, even if Davos did think that he could save Jon's life, what is the logic in hauling him off to that room? How would that help him? Why do they immediately assume that the first people to arrive on the scene are the only people loyal to Jon? Why don't they make any attempt to appeal to the rest of their sworn brothers, people that they've known for years? I don't think these are unreasonable or thoughtless questions.

In the Fredo example, his actions have a clear explanation within the story and seem authentic. Davos' and the others actions don't make much sense in this episode from an in-universe perspective.

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2 minutes ago, Sir Loin Steak said:

That's you creating an explanation, and one that's quite implausible given that Jon is very clearly dead when Davos finds the body: lot's of stab wounds, has visibly bled out, no pulse, no breath, no movement, etc. Furthermore, even if Davos did think that he could save Jon's life, what is the logic in hauling him off to that room? How would that help him? Why do they immediately assume that the first people to arrive on the scene are the only people loyal to Jon? Why don't they make any attempt to appeal to the rest of their sworn brothers, people that they've known for years? I don't think these are unreasonable or thoughtless questions.

In the Fredo example, his actions have a clear explanation within the story and seem authentic. Davos' and the others actions don't make much sense in this episode from an in-universe perspective.

I used the word 'could' deliberately. He did refer to the body as 'him' not 'it', even though that's plausible in either case. But there's nothing implausible about bringing the dead body of the Lord Commander indoors. It's a very natural reaction. There have been some much more implausible reasons given for leaving it lie where it is, such as it turning into a wight. That explanation is implausible on many levels, not least the fact that bodies don't turn into wights spontaneously. A white walker has to either kill them or raise them and no white walkers have ever been south of the wall due to its magic. Added to that is the still general disbelief in their existence which is why Jon's motivation for bringing the wildlings south of the wall led to his death.

Nobody makes the assumption about loyalty. I'm not sure what that question addresses. Is it the fact that they were the first there? All of them seemed to have been alerted by Ghost's howling, as was Davos (the first there). They arrived almost simultaneously. When they were in the room and the situation sunk in, Davos asked were there any more watchmen loyal to Jon and Edd replied that he would only trust those in the room. Was that pure blind luck or the fact that everyone else who might have come already knew what Ghost was howling about?

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2 minutes ago, Clash said:

I used the word 'could' deliberately. He did refer to the body as 'him' not 'it', even though that's plausible in either case. But there's nothing implausible about bringing the dead body of the Lord Commander indoors. It's a very natural reaction. There have been some much more implausible reasons given for leaving it lie where it is, such as it turning into a wight. That explanation is implausible on many levels, not least the fact that bodies don't turn into wights spontaneously. A white walker has to either kill them or raise them and no white walkers have ever been south of the wall due to its magic. Added to that is the still general disbelief in their existence which is why Jon's motivation for bringing the wildlings south of the wall led to his death.

Nobody makes the assumption about loyalty. I'm not sure what that question addresses. Is it the fact that they were the first there? All of them seemed to have been alerted by Ghost's howling, as was Davos (the first there). They arrived almost simultaneously. When they were in the room and the situation sunk in, Davos asked were there any more watchmen loyal to Jon and Edd replied that he would only trust those in the room. Was that pure blind luck or the fact that everyone else who might have come already knew what Ghost was howling about?

I totally agree. Taking his body inside is not unusual. That's what I would have done. It doesn't have to be about trying to save him (he's clearly ddead) or because of an emotional attachment, but to me it would simply be out of respect. Keep in mind that Davos can read the Traitor sign by Jon's body and knew what happened and that there would be further trouble. They weren't really trapped in that room until Edd said they could trust no one else and Thorne gave them an ultimatum and they realized (good job Davos) Thorne was just trying to lure them out to kill them. What seems illogical to me about all this is that we clearly saw bowmen waiting outside ready to shoot. I don't think they would leave their position just because we see Thorne leave. How did Edd leave the room to go get the Wildlings without any problems?

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13 minutes ago, Clash said:

I used the word 'could' deliberately. He did refer to the body as 'him' not 'it', even though that's plausible in either case. But there's nothing implausible about bringing the dead body of the Lord Commander indoors. It's a very natural reaction (i). There have been some much more implausible reasons given for leaving it lie where it is, such as it turning into a wight. That explanation is implausible on many levels, not least the fact that bodies don't turn into wights spontaneously. A white walker has to either kill them or raise them and no white walkers have ever been south of the wall due to its magic. Added to that is the still general disbelief in their existence which is why Jon's motivation for bringing the wildlings south of the wall led to his death.

Nobody makes the assumption about loyalty. I'm not sure what that question addresses. Is it the fact that they were the first there? All of them seemed to have been alerted by Ghost's howling, as was Davos (the first there). They arrived almost simultaneously. When they were in the room and the situation sunk in, Davos asked were there any more watchmen loyal to Jon and Edd replied that he would only trust those in the room. Was that pure blind luck or the fact that everyone else who might have come already knew what Ghost was howling about? (ii)

(i) I don't think that's a natural reaction. He's stone cold dead, respecting the body by lugging it up a flight of stairs to dump on a table seems like it should be a much lower priority than immediately alerting the rest of the Watch.

(ii) Are you suggesting that the show is using Lassie logic now?

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14 minutes ago, Travis said:

I totally agree. Taking his body inside is not unusual. That's what I would have done. It doesn't have to be about trying to save him (he's clearly ddead) or because of an emotional attachment, but to me it would simply be out of respect. Keep in mind that Davos can read the Traitor sign by Jon's body and knew what happened and that there would be further trouble. They weren't really trapped in that room until Edd said they could trust no one else and Thorne gave them an ultimatum and they realized (good job Davos) Thorne was just trying to lure them out to kill them. What seems illogical to me about all this is that we clearly saw bowmen waiting outside ready to shoot. I don't think they would leave their position just because we see Thorne leave. How did Edd leave the room to go get the Wildlings without any problems?

Edd left pretty soon after they entered the room. It was still dark but Thorne came knocking at first light. Remember he gave them until nightfall to surrender and come out. I still smile at the 'mutton' request, that was wonderful writing.

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