Why are Davos etc protecting Jons body?

[MrsStocksey]

3 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

But it makes no sense.

If Jon is dead, why then just don't deliver the body for them to burn him? "Look, Thorne: we just want our former friend's body be respected".

The thing is, the odd thing here is Jon's body. The story needs Jon's body be preserved, but there is no real logic here. Like, why don't they immediately burn it. Don't they know they can't just let bodies around because they can just rise up?

As I see it, I think that in the books, Stannis will eventually die and Davos will join Jon's cause, specially if he is somehow bringing Rickon. He knows fighting the Others was important to Stannis, and Stannis himself probably spoke kindly of Jon Snow. All of that is enough for Davos to feel that he MUST help Jon. But none of this is in the show. He's there because Martin probably told them "after Stannis dies, Davos joins Jon". And that's it. They got there without giving Davos any real cause for his loyalty.

Now, where are the wildlings...? Mole town, surely, but this isn' tin the shows. We shouldn't be around guessing and using the books, they HAVE to tell us.

They don't HAVE to tell us anything....we don't see what everyone is doing all of the time on any TV show.  You just have to use a little imagination to fill in gaps, as the Wildings left about a day ago (I think) on the show, and most of them were walking they can't have gone far, so Edd riding out on a horse to catch up to them makes sense.  As Mole's town is within walking distance of the wall we can assume they went there but who cares, as long as Edd finds them and they come back to kick some arse! Plus we will probably get a scene when he does find them which will show where they are, at the moment we haven't got the full story as it was only episode 1 so of course we are just sat around guessing! 

[Ruhail]

Its a silly plot contrivence that makes Davos love Mel

[Clash]

33 minutes ago, Ruhail said:

Its a silly plot contrivence that makes Davos love Mel

I'm not sure I understand this. Where's the love? There's been the square root of damn all interaction between Davos and Melisandre in this episode so far. Davos would appear to have more on his mind than what Mel did or didn't do. There may well be a reckoning between them in the next episode when Davos isn't threatened with imminent death. In fact hasn't there been some reporting of a heated discussion between them spotted on set during the shooting of season six?

[Les Météores D]

There's no 'logical' reason in term of a narrative standpoint for Davos, Edd & co to take Jon's body inside because it's an instinctive, human reaction. They're decent people who respect the dead body of their friend/ally. Once they lock themselves in that room and understand that the mutineers are probably going after them too, it's about loyalty and choosing their camp on the moral ground just like Grenn and Edd fought the mutineers in Craster's keep right after they killed Mormont except they were surrounded by traitors at that time, here they have time to regroup. Btw, in the same episode you have an exchange of loyalty vows between Sansa and Brienne, also Thorne's own version of the word and Jaime & Cersei loyalty to each other so that's a theme.

-You're Davos: oh shit he's dead and I can read now... yep it's a pretty bad mutiny... what a mess he's dead dead and was a decent, honorable guy... let's take his body inside because the guys who killed an unarmed man in a corner of CB certainly have crossed a massive line and I'm not part of that s*** behavior... btw how many are they?

-You're Edd: *shocked* *sad* Yeah you're right Davos I'm not giving what's left of my LC to these f*****  I want to mourn him at least five minutes before starting thinking coherently and not here, in that dark courtyard, because they might jump on us and stab me in the back too 

No plot hole whatsoever or suspension of belief. 

I wouldn't let my friend's corpse in the snow under a 'traitor' sign either. Or do you prefer to be spoon-feed with every single thought that goes through their heads and can't fill in the blanks yourself... oh wait... the media is actually different from the book, you're supposed to fill the blanks. There are plot holes and criticisms to be made all over the five seasons but this one is childish/stupid and diminish other valid complaints if you put them together, it shows you're watching with (how the irony) illogical blindfolds and that was already old two years ago. Just because you, as a book reader, know about the rez doesn't mean the scene is unbelievable as it is. Same with Jorah and the ring: I don't like it, it's boring plot device but it's not a PH, unless you weren't watching the screen of course.

Also, I'm curious... does Jeyne & Theon jumping the rampart and not breaking their legs count as a suspension of belief that is ok because GRRM wrote it? Lots of unsullied show watchers have more problem with that scene rather than Davos' supposedly nonsensical actions: he forgot about Stannis already!!! and Shireen!!! what about that important, complex plot point between Davos & Mel that needs to be addressed immediately, right now, in the middle of NW meltdown rather than across the season with heavy psychological baggage for for both them? because Jon's arc (and subsequently the characters gravitating around him) is absolutely not about trying to unite people who hate one another, right? So Davos likes Mel so so much now, don't you see that black plot hole?! he praised her magical power fcs, D&D made them best buddies!!!... yeah the usual... burn the writers at the stake yadda yadda yadda. lmao keep going this is fun.

[Lord Friendzone]

51 minutes ago, Ruhail said:

Its a silly plot contrivence that makes Davos love Mel

Pretty sure it's not about that and even first episode never alluded to it. In fact Davos just pointed out that Mel's got powers and Davos main concern is to stay alive right now. Rivalry goes aside. We saw Davos standing in front of place where hHireen was burned. He'll put 2 and 2 together and when he does that....well Mel got some explaining to do.

[Clash]

4 minutes ago, Les Météores D said:

There's no 'logical' reason in term of a narrative standpoint for Davos, Edd & co to take Jon's body inside because it's an instinctive, human reaction. They're decent people who respect the dead body of their friend/ally. Once they lock themselves in that room and understand that the mutineers are probably going after them too, it's about loyalty and choosing their camp on the moral ground just like Grenn and Edd fought the mutineers in Craster's keep right after they killed Mormont except they were surrounded by traitors at that time, here they have time to regroup. Btw, in the same episode you have an exchange of loyalty vows between Sansa and Brienne, also Thorne's own version of the word and Jaime & Cersei loyalty to each other so that's a theme.

-You're Davos: oh shit he's dead and I can read now... yep it's a pretty bad mutiny... what a mess he's dead dead and was a decent, honorable guy... let's take his body inside because the guys who killed an unarmed man in a corner of CB certainly have crossed a massive line and I'm not part of that s*** behavior... btw how many are they?

-You're Edd: *shocked* *sad* Yeah you're right Davos I'm not giving what's left of my LC to these f*****  I want to mourn him at least five minutes before starting thinking coherently and not here, in that dark courtyard, because they might jump on us and stab me in the back too 

No plot hole whatsoever or suspension of belief. 

I wouldn't let my friend's corpse in the snow under a 'traitor' sign either. Or do you prefer to be spoon-feed with every single thought that goes through their heads and can't fill in the blanks yourself... oh wait... the media is actually different from the book, you're supposed to fill the blanks. There are plot holes and criticisms to be made all over the five seasons but this one is childish/stupid and diminish other valid complaints if you put them together, it shows you're watching with (how the irony) illogical blindfolds and that was already old two years ago. Just because you, as a book reader, know about the rez doesn't mean the scene is unbelievable as it is. Same with Jorah and the ring: I don't like it, it's boring plot device but it's not a PH, unless you weren't watching the screen of course.

Also, I'm curious... does Jeyne & Theon jumping the rampart and not breaking their legs count as a suspension of belief that is ok because GRRM wrote it? Lots of unsullied show watchers have more problem with that scene rather than Davos' supposedly nonsensical actions: he forgot about Stannis already!!! and Shireen!!! what about that important, complex plot point between Davos & Mel that needs to be addressed immediately, right now, in the middle of NW meltdown rather than across the season with heavy psychological baggage for for both them? because Jon's arc (and subsequently the characters gravitating around him) is absolutely not about trying to unite people who hate one another, right? So Davos likes Mel so so much now, don't you see that black plot hole?! he praised her magical power fcs, D&D made them best buddies!!!... yeah the usual... burn the writers at the stake yadda yadda yadda. lmao keep going this is fun.

Thank you for that. It's good to see a poster who doesn't go scraping around the bottom of the barrel looking for non-existent plot holes to prove their cleverness.

That there are plot holes is inevitable in a stroy that's trying to condense what's in thousands of pages of writing.

[Les Météores D]

24 minutes ago, Clash said:

I'm not sure I understand this. Where's the love? There's been the square root of damn all interaction between Davos and Melisandre in this episode so far. Davos would appear to have more on his mind than what Mel did or didn't do. There may well be a reckoning between them in the next episode when Davos isn't threatened with imminent death. In fact hasn't there been some reporting of a heated discussion between them spotted on set during the shooting of season six?

You are making too much sense, beware.

I think the actors implied that in interviews too so yes, it's going to be a bumpy road for them.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

5 hours ago, MrsStocksey said:

They don't HAVE to tell us anything....we don't see what everyone is doing all of the time on any TV show.  You just have to use a little imagination to fill in gaps, as the Wildings left about a day ago (I think) on the show, and most of them were walking they can't have gone far, so Edd riding out on a horse to catch up to them makes sense.  As Mole's town is within walking distance of the wall we can assume they went there but who cares, as long as Edd finds them and they come back to kick some arse! Plus we will probably get a scene when he does find them which will show where they are, at the moment we haven't got the full story as it was only episode 1 so of course we are just sat around guessing! 

That's not true. If you go around leaving gaps and your audience has to use their imagination to fill those gaps, it's the sign of bad writing. There is no real explanation, in the show, why many things happen. We all just assume those thing, and we even use the books as a reference. Guess what? Not everybody watching read the books. The show should stand on its own.

There is no real motivation given for Davos being loyal to Jon's body. If we use the books as a reference, is likely because he knows Stannis believed in Jon's cause. But in the show, he's just there because someone has to protect Jon's body.

[Clash]

11 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

There is no real motivation given for Davos being loyal to Jon's body. If we use the books as a reference, is likely because he knows Stannis believed in Jon's cause. But in the show, he's just there because someone has to protect Jon's body.

What you're saying is an exact instance of using knowledge from the books to explain something to your own satisfaction. You know that there's a very strong likelihood of Jon being resurrected, therefore his body has to be preserved, therefore people are immedaitely 'guarding' or 'being loyal to' (whatever the hell that means) his body.

But Davos has what is actually a natural reaction. Bring the body inside is his first reaction; whether to check for signs of life, or just to give it some dignity and not leave it lying in the snow. What else is he going to do? Just walk away and leave it? And why would he do that?

I watched this with two people who haven't read the books and neither of them expressed any surprise at what he did. Didn't even comment on it.

[MrsStocksey]

25 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

That's not true. If you go around leaving gaps and your audience has to use their imagination to fill those gaps, it's the sign of bad writing. There is no real explanation, in the show, why many things happen. We all just assume those thing, and we even use the books as a reference. Guess what? Not everybody watching read the books. The show should stand on its own.

There is no real motivation given for Davos being loyal to Jon's body. If we use the books as a reference, is likely because he knows Stannis believed in Jon's cause. But in the show, he's just there because someone has to protect Jon's body.

Davos is not doing it just because he is 'loyal' to Jon, he is just doing the right thing...e.g get the body away from the Traitor sign, check he is actually dead, don't leave the body out in the snow....human reactions.  After that it is mainly about not being killed himself!

In season 5 there is a fairly long scene between Davos and Jon where Davos points out that Stannis respects Jon, suggesting that Davos is very aware of how Stannis feels about Jon....so the same reason as in the books??

I don't know any of my non-book friends that have pointed to the lack of knowledge about where the Wildings have gone as a plot hole or a gap in the writing....they've not even mentioned it as it's really not that important, and they are still able to understand what's going on.

[Ludo Kressh]

11 minutes ago, Clash said:

What you're saying is an exact instance of using knowledge from the books to explain something to your own satisfaction. You know that there's a very strong likelihood of Jon being resurrected, therefore his body has to be preserved, therefore people are immedaitely 'guarding' or 'being loyal to' (whatever the hell that means) his body.

But Davos has what is actually a natural reaction. Bring the body inside is his first reaction; whether to check for signs of life, or just to give it some dignity and not leave it lying in the snow. What else is he going to do? Just walk away and leave it? And why would he do that?

I watched this with two people who haven't read the books and neither of them expressed any surprise at what he did. Didn't even comment on it.

I wasn't surprised either. I think it was more of 'Allister betrayed his Lord Commander and mutinied and we have to try and stop him to honor Jon' more than protecting Jon's body. The fate of Jon's body wasn't even mentioned in Davos' exchange with Thorne and amongst those in the room with him.

[Lord Friendzone]

On 27. 4. 2016 at 5:18 PM, ~DarkHorse~ said:

Mel's scene from the trailer ("It was all a lie...the victory in the flames...") still needs to happen. I assume this will be episode 2 or 3. I am hoping she does something cool to distract/ fight the Mutineers. However, I don't think she has it in her at the moment. I wanted to see Jon come back to life and have a 'surprise bitch' moment when everyone is fighting as well. However, I am betting on an episode 3 resurrection, along with the R+L=J reveal. 

I wonder if any of the other NW brothers will side with Edd and the Wildlings? The synopsis says, "The Night's Watch stands behind Alliser Thorne" but some of the men were still glaring at him after his speech in the hall. Hopefully, Jon will have more than 4-5 loyal men when he returns. 

We saw photos from episode 2. Edd and Thorne standing in front of pyre or some fire? Thorne's got cut on his armor. I means fight happened and he's still alive. Interesting to see what will happen. Also Davos seems to be standing there in maybe another episode with smoke around him. I really like that there is still a mystery how they gonna do it and when. Davos and others in that room are only loyal to Jon. Rest of them against it.

Mel scene seems to me ep.2 or 3. Yeah, it would be great if he gets resurrected not by Mel as everyone predicts but somehow else. Like sort of magical event Ice and Fire combined, but maybe she's got a hand in it.

One of the spoilers mentioned Mel and Ghost being present at his resurrection scene.

R+L=J and his resurrection. It would be great like "whoa Jon is back and he's a Targaryen too." Both scenes would have even greater impact together and if this is the aim for it, then it should be fantastic.

[Les Météores D]

Can someone, please, come up with a sensible explanation why it is out of character for Davos to act like a empathetic human being and do something about Jon's body lying there, alone in the middle of the night as the blatant victim of a dishonorable murder?

Then, once in the room and after Edd puts two and two together, Davos should just leave the Wall or join Thorne or chat with Mel about Shireen or go to sleep?

[Lord Lannister]

I can see why Jon's loyalists would behave as they are, what I don't get is why Davos has any stake in any of this. Even if he "sees something" in Jon like Stannis, all this murder would prove is that the Night's Watch is an unreliable band of criminals and getting involved in this would just get him killed. He should've gotten on his horse and ridden for White Harbor at that point. While the writers are wanting to portray Davos as an all around good guy by acting as such, it really makes no sense. Melisandre talking Davos into getting involved would've been much more realistic.

[Les Météores D]

18 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I can see why Jon's loyalists would behave as they are, what I don't get is why Davos has any stake in any of this. Even if he "sees something" in Jon like Stannis, all this murder would prove is that the Night's Watch is an unreliable band of criminals and getting involved in this would just get him killed. He should've gotten on his horse and ridden for White Harbor at that point. While the writers are wanting to portray Davos as an all around good guy by acting as such, it really makes no sense. Melisandre talking Davos into getting involved would've been much more realistic.

So Davos, after hearing that Jon's friends are ready to die, should just save his own life and leave the guys there? Same Davos who risked his life for Gendry, who convinced Stannis to help the Watch, who (in the show, as far as we know) has nowhere else to go since all the Northern houses turned down Stannis. Granded he could try Bear Island or perhaps he could try to get the wildlings on his side... Melisandre has hit rock bottom she can't think straight right now. 

Agree to disagree then.

[239JMFL34109]

47 minutes ago, Les Météores D said:

Can someone, please, come up with a sensible explanation why it is out of character for Davos to act like a empathetic human being and do something about Jon's body lying there, alone in the middle of the night as the blatant victim of a dishonorable murder?

Then, once in the room and after Edd puts two and two together, Davos should just leave the Wall or join Thorne or chat with Mel about Shireen or go to sleep?

this!!

[mbuehner]

55 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I can see why Jon's loyalists would behave as they are, what I don't get is why Davos has any stake in any of this. Even if he "sees something" in Jon like Stannis, all this murder would prove is that the Night's Watch is an unreliable band of criminals and getting involved in this would just get him killed. He should've gotten on his horse and ridden for White Harbor at that point.

To be hung by a Bolton ally?  Davos has a matter of minutes to process Jon's death and what it means for him, for his survival and his duties. Sure he could have tried to flee in any general direction, although he has enemies in EVERY direction at this point. But whether you agree with his decision or not, its not an irrational decision to hunker down with the allies he seems to have and try to figure out whats next. Or better yet- even if it were irrational, people do irrational things all the time. Its not an absurd or unlikely decision, by any means, thats the point.

[mbuehner]

2 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

That's not true. If you go around leaving gaps and your audience has to use their imagination to fill those gaps, it's the sign of bad writing.

Right. I'm still waiting to find out if that axe ever connected with Ned's neck. Bad writing.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

2 hours ago, Clash said:

What you're saying is an exact instance of using knowledge from the books to explain something to your own satisfaction. You know that there's a very strong likelihood of Jon being resurrected, therefore his body has to be preserved, therefore people are immedaitely 'guarding' or 'being loyal to' (whatever the hell that means) his body.

But Davos has what is actually a natural reaction. Bring the body inside is his first reaction; whether to check for signs of life, or just to give it some dignity and not leave it lying in the snow. What else is he going to do? Just walk away and leave it? And why would he do that?

I watched this with two people who haven't read the books and neither of them expressed any surprise at what he did. Didn't even comment on it.

I'm using the books to explain why I think the logic they used was used. But you don't need to.

- We've seen Thoros bring back Beric.

- We know Melisandre knows this.

- We have now Jon being dead.

- Melisandre is now close to Jon.

--- > Logical conclusion WITHOUT even reading the books: Melisandre might resurrect Jon.

You don't need to read this: the show is somehow HINTING TO IT (even though sometimes they ignore their own hints...).

Yet, Davos doesn't know this. Davos only knows Jon has been killed. That's all. This "for instinct" makes no sense. Check his signs takes one minute. He's either dead or not. If he's not dead, then he should have said so... and if he's not dead, why is the purpose of Melisandre? And if he's dead, why protecting his body? What purpose does it makes protect a dead body? Shouldn't be their first priority to simply burn it before he can return undead?

Now Davos knows Melisandre can birth shadows. He knows Melisandre has failed twice (Balon being alive, Stannis being AA). Davos is expecting something miraculous will bring Jon back, and this "miracle" is called the plot. We all are assuming Davos is expecting Mel bringing back because we are expecting it: the show is telling us. But Davos doesn't watch the show.

 

 

[Clash]

1 hour ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

What purpose does it makes protect a dead body? Shouldn't be their first priority to simply burn it before he can return undead?

Tell me this. Why do you think he could return undead?