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You're Ned: find some marriage betrothals for your kids


James Steller

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Probably want to tighten the bonds after marrying outside of the north and prepare for winter

Robb - Alys Karstark (close vassal) 

Sansa - Riverlander or Tyrell ( nice to have connections south with the upcoming winter)

Arya - Cerwyn boy ( keep her close and out of trouble)

Bran - manderly girl (stronger ties with merchant house that can get stuff during winter)

 

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On 4/29/2016 at 10:33 AM, The Dames do Moan said:

 

 

 

32 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Yup. And doing so with a

sounds like asking for trouble. Many of the Ironborn would give their loyalty to the actual Greyjoy, especially if Theon was to choose to do this

and force them to rebel.

were you going to finish that thought? Were you agreeing or disagreeing or did you have more to say? Not being a smart ass just seeking more information

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1 hour ago, the conquering bastard 25 said:

Vic is the admiral of the Iron fleet. There is no way that one can remove him from power seeing as the captains of the iron fleet are loyal to him and those that aren't loyal to him are loyal to Asha. They would have to be apart of Theon's court if he hopes to be an effective ruler. OR Theon could go your route and remove them and have revolt on his hands. Then there is the Aeron whom holds salvation in the form of being the major priest of the drowned god. Sry can't remove him unless he wants to alienate his lords and small folk by being seen even more as a greenland lover than he already been seen as with Sansa as his bride. There is no way that the lords of the Iron Isles are going to be happy about having the Lord and master married to Sansa Stark whose father helped smash their independence and turned their lord into one of them by having Theon a captive for 10 years. Not to mention building a sept to the 7 is a really bad idea. There was another Greyjoy that had the 7 on the isles until the religion was banished because of it's unpopular practices went against that of the Drowned god. Once again I'm sorry but this marriage for political reasons is just asking for more trouble than Theon has the skill or patience to navigate having been away for the isles for so many years. He has forgotten as much as he remembered. Just think about he example of Theon and the golden chain that his father snatched for his collar. He had forgotten about paying the iron price. 

This is just a really really really bad idea for both parties. Theon would have to spend the first part of his rule trying to gain the respect of his fellow lords and small folks and prove that he's not an outsider. Meaning a more ideal wife for Theon is not a Stark that is as foreign a bride as Theon could get. Wrong religion, bad blood and just bad politics. No amount of time would make Sansa any less foreign in the eyes of the lord of the isles especially if she choose to keep her faith and make the court more Greenland.

46 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

sounds like asking for trouble. Many of the Ironborn would give their loyalty to the actual Greyjoy, especially if Theon was to choose to do this

and force them to rebel.

You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. I don't imagine a Baratheon and Stark based installation of Theon would be bloodless. But without an unexpected civil war (the War of Five Kings) it's something you can do to create a more stable Iron Islands for future Northern and Baratheon regimes.

Victarion can be brought over to Theon's side or imprisoned. Iron Fleet ships officers and crews can be replaced. Stannis can hang around with part of the Royal Navy for 6 months or so terrorizing everyone.

The current status quo of the Iron Islands at the start of the books is ridiculous, a huge force naval force owned by a discontent formerly rebellious leader unsupervised. I mean who let Balon build an iron fleet again? It's 9 years after their rebellion for Pete's sake!

But to be fair, much of that is Robert's doing after the rebellion. I'd have strung Euron, Balon, Victarion and Aeron up on the walls of Pyke.

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38 minutes ago, GallowsKnight said:

You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. I don't imagine a Baratheon and Stark based installation of Theon would be bloodless. But without an unexpected civil war (the War of Five Kings) it's something you can do to create a more stable Iron Islands for future Northern and Baratheon regimes.

Victarion can be brought over to Theon's side or imprisoned. Iron Fleet ships officers and crews can be replaced. Stannis can hang around with part of the Royal Navy for 6 months or so terrorizing everyone.

The current status quo of the Iron Islands at the start of the books is ridiculous, a huge force naval force owned by a discontent formerly rebellious leader unsupervised. I mean who let Balon build an iron fleet again? It's 9 years after their rebellion for Pete's sake!

But to be fair, much of that is Robert's doing after the rebellion. I'd have strung Euron, Balon, Victarion and Aeron up on the walls of Pyke.

Let's take this step by step.

In the past there have been such cases as the House Hoare whom interwed with the Andals and were found to be ungodly and unfit to rule because they tolerated the 7.

Theon is suppose to wed a woman that is that off the 7/old gods after having been on the Greenlands and living with the Starks for 7 years. The Hoares tolerated the 7 built septs invited priest to the Isles. The same thing that you are proposing. Eventually they turned upon the Hoare family led to war with the west.

What you are talking about a coup that is worthy of some of Roman Caesars. Replacing Captains and crew, imprisioning Vic?!! Have you lost your mind. These are the same men that were so loyal that they stayed at Moat Catlin even when they knew that their doom was at hand. These same men would turn on Theon at the first avalible moment and it would be civil war on the Isles. The Isles arent going to welcome Stannis Baratheon on Pyke or anywhere else on the isle and that's a folly worth of the Young dragon and lord Tyrell. You do know what happened to the Lord Tyrell right. This man Stannis was instrumental in bringing down Vic where the fleet is strongest. The isles would be burning to bring such an asshole such as Stannis to his knees. Again this is a bad idea and the makings of a war between the Iron Isles and the rest of Westeros for many years to come. Because the isles wouldn't see Theon as the ruler they would see him as an underlord to Stannis and by extention Robert and the Iron Throne.

Under Balon with their fight for independence they were given a taste of the Old Ways. A chance to go back reaving, pillaging and raping as they saw fit. No they aren't going to be happy to see Theon and Stannis or any one under Baratheon rule on the Isles. Expecially with a wife that practices ungodly worship as the 7 and the Old Gods its just not happening. 

They would view Sansa as an interloper expecially if she brought with her priest, handmaids from the North and built tributes to the 7. It's bad ju-ju in the making. It's creating more problems than it would solve. Regardless is the relationship between Theon and Sansa was a happy one, which given Theons womanizing and Sansa being her mothers daughter I just don't see it. Not to mention if Sansa went crying to her brother or father about Theon's treatment of her, then again thats another reason for war.

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Robb - Margaery Tyrell, Myrcella Baratheon (if Ned never finds out about her true parentage that is) or someone like Jeyne Bracken?

Sansa - Willas Tyrell, Renly Baratheon or Joffrey Baratheon (same as with Myrcella). I doubt Ned would marry off his oldest and most beautiful daughter to some lower house.

Arya - This one is hard for me to choose, either a Frey or a loyal northern house like the Manderlys or Umbers. Maybe Theon Greyjoy to join the Greyjoys and Starks together to quell any future Ironborn rebellions?

Bran - Meera Reed or Shireen Baratheon

Jon - I know you said not to include him but marrying bastards off to join houses isn't far fetched but if the show is correct and Jon is who we all believe him to be I don't know if marrying the Targ heir to the IT off to some random house is the best idea, especially if the secret was to come out somehow. I'd probably still send him to the Nights watch like Ned did.

All I know is to prepare for the coming winter i'd try to join with House Tyrell in any way possible.

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1 hour ago, the conquering bastard 25 said:

Let's take this step by step.

In the past there have been such cases as the House Hoare whom interwed with the Andals and were found to be ungodly and unfit to rule because they tolerated the 7.

Theon is suppose to wed a woman that is that off the 7/old gods after having been on the Greenlands and living with the Starks for 7 years. The Hoares tolerated the 7 built septs invited priest to the Isles. The same thing that you are proposing. Eventually they turned upon the Hoare family led to war with the west.

What you are talking about a coup that is worthy of some of Roman Caesars. Replacing Captains and crew, imprisioning Vic?!! Have you lost your mind. These are the same men that were so loyal that they stayed at Moat Catlin even when they knew that their doom was at hand. These same men would turn on Theon at the first avalible moment and it would be civil war on the Isles. The Isles arent going to welcome Stannis Baratheon on Pyke or anywhere else on the isle and that's a folly worth of the Young dragon and lord Tyrell. You do know what happened to the Lord Tyrell right. This man Stannis was instrumental in bringing down Vic where the fleet is strongest. The isles would be burning to bring such an asshole such as Stannis to his knees. Again this is a bad idea and the makings of a war between the Iron Isles and the rest of Westeros for many years to come. Because the isles wouldn't see Theon as the ruler they would see him as an underlord to Stannis and by extention Robert and the Iron Throne.

Under Balon with their fight for independence they were given a taste of the Old Ways. A chance to go back reaving, pillaging and raping as they saw fit. No they aren't going to be happy to see Theon and Stannis or any one under Baratheon rule on the Isles. Expecially with a wife that practices ungodly worship as the 7 and the Old Gods its just not happening. 

They would view Sansa as an interloper expecially if she brought with her priest, handmaids from the North and built tributes to the 7. It's bad ju-ju in the making. It's creating more problems than it would solve. Regardless is the relationship between Theon and Sansa was a happy one, which given Theons womanizing and Sansa being her mothers daughter I just don't see it. Not to mention if Sansa went crying to her brother or father about Theon's treatment of her, then again thats another reason for war.

Pah, Caesars are light weights. I'm talking a Cromwellian Conquest of Ireland (which I'm not condoning historically) level of brutality if necessary. The Ironborn are a toxic culture and a sword hanging above the North, West and Riverlands in any future Rebellion or Targaryan restoration. The Iron Islands never had to deal with a united Westeros until the Greyjoy rebellion. And what happened then? They lost. Then Robert squandered the chance to actually change them.

To quote Nyrhex in another thread

Quote

The Royal Navy stays put for a short while, a large garrison is established, wards taken from every familty, Iron Fleet or what is left of it put to the torch. Forced conversion to the Seven, wards already growing up in the Light of the Seven. As slavery is outlawed in Westeros, do what should have been done and release the Thralls who man the Ironborn ships. Most of thier manpower used for the navy is forced labour. Give the Thralls thier freedom, and help them settle in the Iron Isles as equals. In a short generation you have the Ironborn with no naval power to threaten the realm, the next lords are already part of the social and religious fabric of Westeros, the population already on it's way there with most of it former Thralls and Salt Wives taken from the Mainland.

Iron Isles become just a group of poor islands that live off trade. Hell, give them tax exceptions on trade and help them prosper and lose all insentive to rebel again.

Edit: I've gone from a simple marriage proposal to killing 30% of the Iron Islands population if needs be, maybe I should have a lie down and chill out.

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Robb: Alys Karstark or to strengthen his (future) claim on the North

Sansa: Willas Tyrell to have some power in the Reach OR Renly Baratheon to gain influence in the Stormlands

Arya: Trystane Martell 

Bran: Lyanna Mormont, Ned could not know at that time but she will be the head of house Mormont some day.

Rickon: Shireen Baratheon

Jon: the Night's Watch so he can climb the ranks to LC and have your back as well if needed.

Now you have ties in the North (duh), friends on the Iron Islands through Theon, family in the Riverlands and the Vale through Cat, Dorne, the Reach and the Stormlands bound to you by marriage and a good friend on the Iron Throne so the Crownlands've got your back. 

**** y'all Westerlands.

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I've rethought how I'd do a Theon-Sansa marriage.

Marry them in Winterfell soon as possible. Have them live together for a few years and sire a few children. Send Theon by himself to the Iron Islands when his father dies to sink or swim on his own merit. If he is accepted as lord, give him a few years to cement his rule and send for Sansa and the children.

If he flees, organised a Royal and Northern backed force to establish him as lord, again give him a few years to establish order. If this fails find him and Sansa a place in the North and consider another attempt to take the Iron Island with a future generation.

Finally if he is murdered, consider finding a second or third son of another wealthy and powerful great house or of a powerful Ironborn house (house Harlaw for example) to wed a still young widowed Sansa (proven fertile) who is ambitious enough to want to rule Pyke as a regent for the child of Sansa and Theon. Back him with Northern and Baratheon forces. Give him time again to cement his rule, before sending for Sansa. If this is isn't an option marry her to a Northern bannerman of her choosing. Raise the children of Theon and her at Winterfell, attempt to take the Iron Islands in a future generation.

If Theon and Sansa can't conceive offspring, look into annulling the marriage, if impossible find them a place of importance in the North to live comfortably.

This way you never really have to expose Sansa to risk and you possibly get the Iron Islands or another shot in the future of claiming it through their offspring.

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Go to KL and become hand of the king. That will boost your house name even further. Ask the King to legitimise Jon Snow to a Stark. Cat may not like it but he'll be last of the pack in terms of inheritance. 

a- Sansa - Joffrey Baratheon  = That will further consolidate the alliance between the Crown and the North. (Also Robert gave you no choice on the matter either)

b- Robb - Margaery Tyrell - Ok Renly had been circling around the girl for ages but his claim to the throne is as good as buried (he's behind Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella and Stannis) and he only rules the Stormlands whose relatively small when compared to the North. The North is way more powerful then the Stormlands and Robb is the Hand of the King's son, Edmure Tully's nephew, Sweet Robin's cousin and will soon be the heir to the king's brother in law. Mace will certainly consider that matchup

c- Renly - Arya Stark - With Sansa and Margaery gone, Arya Stark is potentially the third best matchup one can do (behind Myrcella and Arianne). Arya's matchup with Renly would further strengthen the bond between Baratheon and Starks and will allow Renly to tap into Arya's family in search of allies

d- Jon Stark - Arianne Martell =  Bastards are treated kindly in Dorne and Jon Stark would give Arianne a powerful ally whose got the connections needed to defend her right to succeed Dorran without the risk of turning Dorne into a region of the North (which would be a probability if Arianne marries Robb or Bran).  

e- Bran Stark - Wynafryd Manderly = It will secure an alliance with the richest house in North and who knows, maybe Bran will inherit the lands one day. 

f - Rickon Stark - Walda Frey = It would secure safe passage past the twins if needed and it will strengthen Edywn Frey claim over the Frey lands. 

I would also use my influence on Theon to have him marry Wylla (ie its a rich family, you'll be brother in law to Bran which means that if Balon decided to ignore your claim you'll have the Starks, the Tullys, the Tyrells, the Arryns and the king himself at your side etc)

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Robb - a wife of his choosing from House Frey

Bran - Meera Reed

Arya - Robyn Arryn. She could work miracles on him, and truly run the Vale

Rickon - Shireen

Sansa - a male of House Magnar of Kinghouse (Skagos)

Jon - Val

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On ‎8‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 8:54 PM, GallowsKnight said:

I've rethought how I'd do a Theon-Sansa marriage.

Marry them in Winterfell soon as possible. Have them live together for a few years and sire a few children. Send Theon by himself to the Iron Islands when his father dies to sink or swim on his own merit. If he is accepted as lord, give him a few years to cement his rule and send for Sansa and the children.

If he flees, organised a Royal and Northern backed force to establish him as lord, again give him a few years to establish order. If this fails find him and Sansa a place in the North and consider another attempt to take the Iron Island with a future generation.

Finally if he is murdered, consider finding a second or third son of another wealthy and powerful great house or of a powerful Ironborn house (house Harlaw for example) to wed a still young widowed Sansa (proven fertile) who is ambitious enough to want to rule Pyke as a regent for the child of Sansa and Theon. Back him with Northern and Baratheon forces. Give him time again to cement his rule, before sending for Sansa. If this is isn't an option marry her to a Northern bannerman of her choosing. Raise the children of Theon and her at Winterfell, attempt to take the Iron Islands in a future generation.

If Theon and Sansa can't conceive offspring, look into annulling the marriage, if impossible find them a place of importance in the North to live comfortably.

This way you never really have to expose Sansa to risk and you possibly get the Iron Islands or another shot in the future of claiming it through their offspring.

Theon and Sansa no matter how one slices this pie aren't a viable option. There is nothing that came make this match a good one.

 

The proposal that you have laid out isn't going to work either as if Theon is removed from the Iron Isles as lord there will no retaking the isles in Sansa's children. Seeing as they will present the same problems that Theon posed. They were raised in the North be of the wrong faith and have a mother that would be seen as unsuitable. They would always be viewed as soft green landers. Not to mention that the Iron Isles would resent Stark interference. Its just not going to happen.

 

The only way that maybe this match could work is if something like what Asha proposed at the Kingsmoot.

The Starks were to cede some land and woods to the Iron Isles and there was almost like an exchange program to settle the lands give to the Greyjoys in the North. Yet that's creating problems for Robb and future Starks down the road. Seeing as the Iron islanders have never been happy with their lot in life and would see the land given as a foot hold in the North for future conquests.

No this is just a bad match and I understand why Ned never made the proposal to either Balon or Theon.

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9 hours ago, the conquering bastard 25 said:

Theon and Sansa no matter how one slices this pie aren't a viable option. There is nothing that came make this match a good one.

The proposal that you have laid out isn't going to work either as if Theon is removed from the Iron Isles as lord there will no retaking the isles in Sansa's children. Seeing as they will present the same problems that Theon posed. They were raised in the North be of the wrong faith and have a mother that would be seen as unsuitable. They would always be viewed as soft green landers. Not to mention that the Iron Isles would resent Stark interference. Its just not going to happen.

The only way that maybe this match could work is if something like what Asha proposed at the Kingsmoot.

The Starks were to cede some land and woods to the Iron Isles and there was almost like an exchange program to settle the lands give to the Greyjoys in the North. Yet that's creating problems for Robb and future Starks down the road. Seeing as the Iron islanders have never been happy with their lot in life and would see the land given as a foot hold in the North for future conquests.

No this is just a bad match and I understand why Ned never made the proposal to either Balon or Theon.

I think you're looking too short term. The status quo doesn't have to remain the stauts quo. If Theon can rule the Iron Islands with a minimum of opposition that's great, but if he can't it's casus belli for the Iron Throne to take step to purge the Iron Islands.

Think the Norman Conquest of Britain. Think Cromwell's conquest of Ireland. You can remove the entire landowning class of Ironborn and replace them with foreigners. Will it cause problems? Yes. Will you have to kill a lot of the Iron Islands? Maybe. Like the harrying of the North in Britain or the 30% population of dead Irishmen in those situations.

But in both those situations it was done and worked. Norman descendants rule Britain until today and the Irish only gained independance 300 years after the invasion (in a era of guns). 

And whose going to object? Because seriously everyone hates the Ironborn.

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Robb - Myrcella Baratheon: Strong ties to Baratheon and Lannister

Sansa - Garlan Tyrell if available if not Willas: Always good to have friends in the Reach

Arya - Domeric Bolton provided he lived if not Harrion Karstark: Powerful vassals

Bran - Wylla Manderly: Richest vassal

Rickon - Ysilla Royce: Powerful Vale Lord

Theon: Dacey Mormont: Your welcome Theon and perhaps help sooth hatred between Bear and the Iron Islands. 

Jon - Mya Stone: Have Jon help settle the Gift or see if Jon Arryn could make him the Knight of the Gate.

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On 8/10/2016 at 8:59 PM, GallowsKnight said:

I think you're looking too short term. The status quo doesn't have to remain the stauts quo. If Theon can rule the Iron Islands with a minimum of opposition that's great, but if he can't it's casus belli for the Iron Throne to take step to purge the Iron Islands.

Think the Norman Conquest of Britain. Think Cromwell's conquest of Ireland. You can remove the entire landowning class of Ironborn and replace them with foreigners. Will it cause problems? Yes. Will you have to kill a lot of the Iron Islands? Maybe. Like the harrying of the North in Britain or the 30% population of dead Irishmen in those situations.

But in both those situations it was done and worked. Norman descendants rule Britain until today and the Irish only gained independance 300 years after the invasion (in a era of guns). 

And whose going to object? Because seriously everyone hates the Ironborn.

yeah and it took fire and blood for William the bastard to get the throne and it wasn't until Henry I and II that the English were settled with the Bastards line taking the throne and that's after most of the Saxons and Anglo rulers had been eliminated.

The Ironborn would object and they have the skills and ships to make some of the most prosperious places in Westeros bleed til they get the terms they want. They can harry the coasts, slip up to Highgarden, Oldtown, parts of Dorne and even the Trident lords and cause major trouble for these regions and it's masters. It's too much work and too little gain on a really big IF

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Robb - Margery Tyrell or Arianne Martell

Sansa - Quentyn Martell, Loras Tyrell, Renly Baratheon 

Bran - Asha Greyjoy, Allyria Dayne or a Karstark

Arya - Robin Arryn, a northern Lords son

Rickon - A northern Lords daughter or get him a girl from Lys, Volantis, Yi-Ti 

With these Alliances nobody could mess with the starks 

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3 minutes ago, ThePrinceThatKnewNothing said:

Robb - Margery Tyrell or Arianne Martell

Sansa - Quentyn Martell, Loras Tyrell, Renly Baratheon 

Bran - Asha Greyjoy, Allyria Dayne or a Karstark

Arya - Robin Arryn, a northern Lords son

Rickon - A northern Lords daughter or get him a girl from Lys, Volantis, Yi-Ti 

With these Alliances nobody could mess with the starks 

Robb - Arianne wouldn't work. They are both heirs to their respective regions and sure as hell neither region would accept to be second best by accepting a second son to lead them. Balon Greyjoy would refuse to have Asha marry a Stark either.

 

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My first choice would be a straight Royal matchup, as many of the following as possible:

Robb - Myrcella

Sansa - Joffrey

Arya - Tommen

This would merge the Stark and Baratheon dynasties and establish me as part of the Royal family.

Bran and Rickon I would probably leave unpromised, to give me flexibility for the future.

However if I did not want to 'go royal' - maybe because of suspicions about parentage or Robert not agreeing, I would focus on creating an alliance strong enough to win any possible future wars, with cast iron links that would not be easily broken. I would already have a strong alliance with the Tullys, but the centrepiece of my negotiations would be a Tyrell alliance, sealed by a double marriage of heirs: 

Robb - Margaery

Sansa - Willas

This would create an extremely strong bond which should hold through a civil war, and together the Starks and the Tyrell's would be very hard indeed to defeat. 

I would then focus on turning general goodwill in the Vale into a strong alliance. I would try to foster Sweetrobin, if I could get a message to Jon Arryn before he died, but even if I could not I would offer him  Arya. This would make it more likely that the Vale would support me in the event of conflict. If this were not possible, I would try to get Trystane Martell, however this would be inferior as that alliance would both be with a weaker partner, and be unlikely to be very strong, as there are few pre-existing ties between Dorne and the North, and neither Arya nor Trystane is even a spare. 

My first choice for Bran would be Shireen, but this would be unlikely to be accepted. I would therefore instead probably have him fostered, as there are few strategically valuable girls his age. I would probably choose Riverrun, so as to help maintain the Tully alliance for another generation, but possibly would send him to storms end, to ally with Renly. Rickon would be sent to the other place to Bran.

All of this would ensure that in any future war, I would have the aid of the Tullys, the Arryns and most importantly the Tyrells. This would give me more than 200 000 men, and allow me to outnumber the rest of the realm put together. The Lannisters would be made much less dangerous, as in addition to being massively outnumbered, they would also be surrounded on all sides. No other house would oppose me, as they would be hopelessly outmatched.

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Robb Stark: This depends on Ned Stark ambitions. In order to strength their bond with the Baratheons he might have betrohed him to Myrcella. Another option is Wylla Manderly or her sister Wynafried which are from a Northern house and rich, unlike Caitlyn, despite the fact their worship the New Gods. 

Sansa Stark: Just as with Robb, this betrothal also depends on Ned Stark's Southron ambitions. Willas or Loras Tyrell could have been good plus Sansa always wanted to go South. Another alternative is the Vale with Andar Royce being the most obvious choice. 

Arya Stark: Because Sansa goes South Arya needs to stay in the North. Marrying her to a Karstark since the best choice because is the closest house to the Starks. Cles Cerwyn is also a good match. 

Bran Stark: Meera Reed is my first choice because of thefriendship between Ned and Howland could be a good way to strengthen their ties. A Frey is also a valid alternative. 

Rickon Stark: I would like to see him wed a Mormont possibly even Lyanna, since she is closer to his age, Mormonts are loyal servents but have few blood ties with the Starks so it could be an opportunity to strengthen them.  Erena Glover would also serve.

Jon Snow: The Wall seems to be Jon's most obvious destiny specially do to his admiration of Benjen, however Mya Stone could also be an interesting match (two highborn bastards and a connection with Robert's blood). 

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