Fantasy series that are both character-driven and with great worldbuilding

[Darth Richard II]

I actually really like both, I just get uppity on the Malazan thing sometimes because of long ago reasons.

I also find it funny that Erkison has a blurb on the cover of Bakker's books, considering how the fans of one seem to hate the other.

Edit: But fuck the KIngkiller Chronicles.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

Another vote for Robin Hobb's work in The Realm of the Elderlings. It's precisely what you're looking for.

Also Bakker > Malazan because everybody now has to cast their vote on that.

1 minute ago, Darth Richard II said:

Edit: But fuck the KIngkiller Chronicles.

Preach!

[Pilusmagnus]

I'd like to precise that I'm not asking personally for a recommendation for a fantasy series right now (but it will very probably influence my long-terms readings). I already have like ten books I have to read. I just wanted to start this topic to see if my conception was accurate. All your answers made me reconsider my original view.

But please, do keep voting! I will end up reading the things you recommend eventually  

[polishgenius]

I'm baffled that you think Pratchett is world-over-character. His characters pretty quickly become the focus of the series whereas the world is completely made up as he goes along. It does acquire depth and consistency as it goes, especially Ankh-Morpork, but the characters are definitely first.


Anyway, it's not an unfair observation at a very broad level that series which focus more on characters might put the world on the backburner, but there are plenty that juggle both. Bas-Lag by Mieville being probably the first to jump to mind.



ps Malazan isn't world-driven, it's event-driven. Both the world and the characters are secondary in the plot to Shit That Happens - although I like Malazan's characters fine and Erikson (and ICE) are good enough writers to handle both.

[Pilusmagnus]

2 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

I'm baffled that you think Pratchett is world-over-character. His characters pretty quickly become the focus of the series whereas the world is completely made up as he goes along. It does acquire depth and consistency as it goes, especially Ankh-Morpork, but the characters are definitely first.

Well, he would be more of a humor-over-character. That's after all the basis of his narrativum theory. Neither characters nor world drive the story, because the story drives itself.

Which is why I never could enjoy Pratchett, because although I find it absolutely hilarious, I feel like the plot and characers are too conventional to be engaging. (But I only read Mortimer, Pyramids and the beginning of a few others.)

[polishgenius]

9 minutes ago, Pilusmagnus said:

Well, he would be more of a humor-over-character.

In some of the early ones yeah, but overall, not really.

[Pilusmagnus]

3 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

In some of the early ones yeah, but overall, not really.

That's probably why I never got past the early ones then.

[Richard Writhen]

1 hour ago, Pilusmagnus said:

A Song of Ice and Fire is just called "The Iron Throne" and has 15 volumes re-worked into 5 integrals.

 

What is an integral. I've seen a few canadien or british editions and the books were halved.

[Darth Richard II]

Ha, ten books to read? I have 350+.

[all swedes are racist]

Thomas Covenant, yo 

[End of Disc One]

Erikson and Bakker are two of my absolute favorites. I think Bakker fits what you're looking for, but granted, Erikson not so much. 

[Darzin]

I think Bakker is the best fit, it has a POV structure similar to A song of ice and fire and is very character driven, but as others have said his characters may not be likable. The world building in Bakker is amazing there is a detailed appendix in back of the third book and the next trilogy will have an even longer one when it's finished. His books feature a detailed history including religions which have developed and changed over time, distinct cultures and truly alien races. His books have a language tree in the back to show you how the languages of the nations have changed through time. 

[Darth Richard II]

If Bakker is character driven then I'm the queen of bloody France.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I don't rate Martin as great world-building. It's faux Medieval Europe, with a chronic case of drama over logic. Characterisation is great though.

My first thought here was actually Bakker.

Another one might be C.S. Friedman's Coldfire Trilogy.

[The Marquis de Leech]

41 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

If Bakker is character driven then I'm the queen of bloody France.

Hello, Marie.

[Darth Richard II]

Really? Bakker? I can't even remember half the characters, and nothing they really do except Kellus seem to affect anything. Maybe we don;t agree on the same definition of character driven.

Not to mention Esmet is one of the worst written female characters in all of fantasy.

[Darth Richard II]

This is the definition i found:

(Of a book, play, film, etc., or its narrative) chiefly concerned with, and developing through, the depiction of the personalities of one or more characters.

I could maybe maybe go with Bakker under that one, although he seems more to focus on his weird philosophy then anything.

If we go by the OP, i would never in a million years call any of Bakker's characters 'great and engaging'.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Applying the idea that there are four basic components to a fantasy novel - plot, character, theme, and worldbuilding, I'd say:

Bakker is Theme > World > Character > Plot

So yes, Bakker is really theme-driven more than anything, but he's certainly more character-driven than plot-driven.

Martin is Character > Plot > Theme > World

[Darth Richard II]

I can go with that.

I'm super argumentative today and I apologize, its been a week. :/

I've never understood why people list GRRM so high on the world building scale. It's more history than world building, IMO.

[Pilusmagnus]

7 hours ago, W. Wrycthen said:

 

What is an integral. I've seen a few canadien or british editions and the books were halved.

Some of the editions of A Storm of Swords are indeed cut in two, but they are named A Storm of Swords Part 1 and A Storm of Swords Part 2.

In France, the concept of A Sword of Swords doesn't exist. What Martin intended as a single book is instead split into four volumes named respectively (French titles literally translated) : Intrigues at King's Landing, The Sword of Fire, The Red Wedding (nice spoiler btw) and The Kingslayer's Law (I have no idea what that refers to. Jaime? Tyrion? Why a law?)

And when all of this has been published, then two years later they release the paperbacks, and in the case of ASOS, six years later they reworked them in Le Trône de Fer - Intégrale 3 saying "Look how nice we are, compiling volumes so you don't have to pay 8 euros for each" when it's actually what you should have had in the first place.

It really is a case of labelling fraud if you ask me.

And they do the same with Glen Cook, Robin Hobb and David B. Coe.

By the way, do you know what Winds of the Foreland is called in French ? It's called literally The Crown of the Seven Kingdoms. I wonder why they changed the title...

And, to drift back on topic, how do the books by David B. Coe fit my criteria? I always assumed based on that fucking French title that he was just a Martin copycat, but I discovered that the title was the French publisher's fault, so is he great at worldbuilding and characters?

29 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

I've never understood why people list GRRM so high on the world building scale. It's more history than world building, IMO.

Well inventing history can be great worldbuilding just as well as inventing mythology, races and languages. I personnally consider that ASOIAF has the best worldbuilding of anything I ever read, maybe ex-aequo with Tolkien. I've never been more immersed when I read something than I am with Martin, because you can see all stratums of population, all the aspects of the society, what people read, what they eat, how they dress, what they sing, what games they play. And there's all these centuries of history as well, and a lot of foreign cultures and distant lands that you hear about but never see.

I don't know if that counts as great immersion or great worldbuilding, but it's really the best I've read.