THE PUNISHER now a Netflix series

[Astromech]

It was just ok for me. While I enjoyed the last 3 or 4 episodes, I was mostly bored with the earlier ones. Too many arcs I didn't care about and not enough of Frank Castle being the Punisher.

[Werthead]

Just did a round-up of the current Marvelflix universe going forwards. The current status of the shows is this:

JESSICA JONES 2: Filming completed, airing March 2018 (probably).
LUKE CAGE 2: Filming completed, airing August 2018 (probably).
DAREDEVIL 3: Filming underway right now, airing November 2018 (probably).
IRON FIST 2: Filming starts next week, airing December 2018 or February 2019.

So far The Defenders and The Punisher have not been renewed.

The interesting question is what does the new Disney streaming service mean for the Marvel shows. My understanding is that Netflix can keep them as long as they keep greenlighting them, but Disney can buy them back through (expensive) cancellation clauses. There's also apparently a big question mark over a second Defenders team-up as that was not part of the original deal.

Also an interesting question, bearing that in mind, is that Infinity War seems to show New York getting pretty devastated. I highly doubt that the Netflix shows will tie into that in any way, which might be the point they stop even pretending these take place in the same universe.

[Фейсал]

On 11/30/2017 at 0:36 PM, mormont said:

Go back to my previous point. This was already explored, extensively, in DD S2. The idea that the Punisher series needed to explore it again holds no water. 

Rather, the writers clearly made a conscious choice to follow a story of the Punisher pursuing a personal vendetta with more of the same. The only explanation for that is that this is their conception of the character. They aren't interested in Frank waging a general war on crime. They don't find that appealing, and/or they don't think audiences will. Whichever it is, they are not setting it up: instead they made a conscious choice to turn away from it. 

They might move in that direction if there is a second series, but I'm sceptical that either there will be a second series or that it will go in that direction. 

I'm not sure it does, but in any case it tells me nothing about her as a person, and neither does the fact that she's important to Frank. One can argue that she's important to Frank only as an ideal, since his memories of her tell us so little about her. 

No, those scenes are repetitive. Each of those aspects are covered in more than one scene and each scene touches on more than one. Worse, there's no tension in them. We know Frank isn't into Sarah: at best she could be third in his affections after Maria and Karen. The idea seemed to be to try to create tension between Frank and Micro over Sarah, which was a dumb idea which, again, seemed only there to fill time. 

None of these feature anyone berating Frank. Apart from Lewis, they mostly feature characters expressing some concern, before going along with the same methods they just criticised: and since those same methods are actually shown to work, and Frank faces no lasting consequences for them, the natural conclusion is that the series (as I said above) is willing to raise these questions but not to properly explore them.  

Yes, but only one of them is a feature of this version of the Punisher. 

I disagree - I don't think it was much of an element in Daredevil Season 2. That was a pretty straight forward revenge story. Frank has a concise objective in mind, taking revenge on those directly responsible for the death of his family. It all feels entirely justified, none of it feels like he's going too far or fighting for the sake of fighting which is the case in The Punisher, and this the groundwork for his war on crime. The list of people he has to kill for revenge just gets bigger and bigger and it's ridiculous.

The show's done great i'm pretty sure. If Iron Fist got a renewal I think The Punisher is safe; but they're stuffed with projects right now.

Yeah I agree with that. We know she's important to Frank and we know what she meant to him which serves the purpose of the plot well enough.

No particular scene stands out as being a retread of another, to be honest. If any in particular stand out i'd like to know. And I thought for a while that Sarah and Frank might actually fuck until the confrontation with Micro, and part of the reason why Frank/Micro is so compelling is how they legitimately hate each other until a change happens towards the end. The Sarah dynamic only added to that - Frank was being a genuine asshole out of spite.

What do you envision as ''lasting consequences'' precisely? Frank's actual death? imprisonment for life? couldn't you paint the source material with the same brush? Frank commits plenty of violence, but that violence only makes him more miserable and pushes him further to the deep end. On the surface level these methods way ''work'' but I think the lasting consequence are in Frank's character and psyche. They all berate him for it, yes. They don't just show concern - Micro outright calls him a psychopath and pins the blame of his family's death on him. Karen tells him he'll just keep going and going with no return. Lewis is self explanatory. and point out time and time again how terrible his methods are. They go along with a lot of it out of mitigating reasons for the most part [Micro and Karen for instance are indebted to Frank] but my takeaway is the entire conflict of the show could have been solved in a different way if Frank wasn't so hell bent on killing everyone in sight.

 

[mormont]

4 hours ago, Фейсал said:

I disagree - I don't think it was much of an element in Daredevil Season 2.

Because you're not breaking up your response, I'm not 100% sure what you're referring to by 'it' here, but I assume you mean Frank's origin story. Which was about 40% of DD S2, honestly. We get a complete explanation, up to and including the shootout not being a coincidence and tying it back to Frank's time in Afghanistan. If it had never been mentioned again, if there had never even been a Punisher series, that story would have remained complete and full. There was no compelling need to revisit it: doing so was a conscious choice by the writers. 

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That was a pretty straight forward revenge story. Frank has a concise objective in mind, taking revenge on those directly responsible for the death of his family.

A summary of The Punisher? Or DD S2? Actually, it's both, proving my point. 

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I thought for a while that Sarah and Frank might actually fuck until the confrontation with Micro

Oh hell no. Never for a moment. For a start, Frank knows full well Micro is watching them! 

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and part of the reason why Frank/Micro is so compelling is how they legitimately hate each other until a change happens towards the end.

They actually don't. Frank initially distrusts Micro and it takes a while after that for him to grow to respect him, but that's all. 

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The Sarah dynamic only added to that - Frank was being a genuine asshole out of spite.

I'm not even sure what show you were watching by this time. 

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What do you envision as ''lasting consequences'' precisely?

As an example, a character relationship actually irretrievably breaking down because of Frank's behaviour. No matter what characters say to Frank, they go right on helping him and trusting him as if they had never said it, or never meant what they said. Micro might call Frank a psychopath at one point (and I can't even remember that happening, tbh) but he goes on to trust Frank with his own family's life: so again, the actual narrative undermines what Micro says, to the point where the impression would be that the writers believe Micro was wrong, not that he was right. 

At the end of the series, Frank is not miserable, by the way. We're told he is somewhat afraid of what the future might hold, but he's achieved his aims and appears quite fulfilled by it. 

On 12/2/2017 at 5:57 PM, briantw said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Well, he knew the group out in Kentucky was a hit squad.  Why else would they be there but to kill Gunner?  It was basically kill or be killed there.

 

Fair. But it corroborates, perhaps, the point about 'honour': that is not an honourable mission, whereas defending a base is?

[briantw]

10 hours ago, mormont said:

Fair. But it corroborates, perhaps, the point about 'honour': that is not an honourable mission, whereas defending a base is?

That would make sense.  He also didn't go to that base to kill anyone, but simply to get information on the guy he actually wanted to kill.

[Crazydog7]

The series is certainly not without its flaws but at least "The Hand" was not the villains. 

[Eggegg]

On 05/12/2017 at 7:15 PM, Crazydog7 said:

The series is certainly not without its flaws but at least "The Hand" was not the villains. 

Tru Dat!!

Yeah on reflection I am maybe now a little disappointed by the series, it didn't feel like a Punisher series at all to me, maybe because its in origin story mode still (which it shouldnt be by now) but the whole plot line didn't grab me all that much after the first few episodes. I really hope there is a second season so that Frank can fight some real criminals, some gangsters and maybe the Kingpin!!

[Werthead]

Punisher renewed for Season 2.

That seems to confirm that Netflix can keep renewing shows even in the wake of the new Disney streaming news.

[mormont]

12 hours ago, Werthead said:

Punisher renewed for Season 2.

That seems to confirm that Netflix can keep renewing shows even in the wake of the new Disney streaming news.

I must eat my words, it seems.

I look forward to finding out the Punisher's origin story!

[Eggegg]

12 hours ago, Werthead said:

Punisher renewed for Season 2.

That seems to confirm that Netflix can keep renewing shows even in the wake of the new Disney streaming news.

Hopefully there will be some actual punishing of bad guys in the next season.

[HexMachina]

12 hours ago, mormont said:

I must eat my words, it seems.

I look forward to finding out the Punisher's origin story!

Third times a charm!

[Bastard of Boston]

I loved it.

I think it defies the critique that the Netflix seasons have too much filler. I thought this one hit the sweet spot, where all the others had two or three "treading water" episodes. There was tons of development for the peripheral characters...I cared about them all. This was especially satisfying because I have minimal experience with Punisher, and regardless of whether the cast was pulled from the comics, I had no idea who any of them were, except for Frank, Karen, and Jigsaw.

When they did delve into subplots, they didn't get unruly, and they eventually dovetailed nicely back into the main action. Bernthal was so good. His performance was next level, and my biggest worry was that we'd get a one note portrayal. Frank was unapologetically brutal, but still sympathetic. I like that they didn't shy away or have him second guess. He didn't care about killing, and from what I know of him, he shouldn't care about killing. But there should still be something to him that you like.

Can't wait for season two.

[Eggegg]

9 hours ago, Bastard of Boston said:

I loved it.

I think it defies the critique that the Netflix seasons have too much filler. I thought this one hit the sweet spot, where all the others had two or three "treading water" episodes. There was tons of development for the peripheral characters...I cared about them all. This was especially satisfying because I have minimal experience with Punisher, and regardless of whether the cast was pulled from the comics, I had no idea who any of them were, except for Frank, Karen, and Jigsaw.

When they did delve into subplots, they didn't get unruly, and they eventually dovetailed nicely back into the main action. Bernthal was so good. His performance was next level, and my biggest worry was that we'd get a one note portrayal. Frank was unapologetically brutal, but still sympathetic. I like that they didn't shy away or have him second guess. He didn't care about killing, and from what I know of him, he shouldn't care about killing. But there should still be something to him that you like.

Can't wait for season two.

I'd say that actually I enjoyed all of the side characters in this show far more than on the other shows. I thought Micro was maybe the best thing in the series tbh. That doesn't mean I didn't wish that they had concentrated more on Frank and less on everyone else. It felt like they were using Punisher as a base to make a bunch of general comments about gun laws and PTSD, which is fair enough, but it felt a little heavy handed at times.

[Martini Sigil]

I'm curious to see how Jessica Jones will do post-Kilgrave... S1 had the benefit of a terrific villain... and if I'm not mistaken we still do not know who the S2 big bad will be... 

[Mexal]

Just finished it. Not bad. Agree with the pacing issues. Felt like the show had about 7-8 episodes worth of story they fit into a 13 episode arc. Other than that, some enjoyable bits.

[williamjm]

I finished watching the series last week. I really liked it. I see there have been quite a few complaints about the pacing, while it wasn't exactly fast-paced (particularly at first), I didn't feel it really dragged too much. Perhaps if I'd tried to binge it all at once the pacing might have been more of an issue, but I don't usually have time to watch Netflix shows that way. I also saw that some people thought the Punisher was toned down a bit from the comics, never having read them it doesn't make much difference to me, although I did think that it didn't really have much of a comic book feel to it - this incarnation of Frank Castle doesn't feel too different to the likes of Denzel Washington in Man on Fire or The Equalizer or Jim Caviezel in Person of Interest.

I think the cast is great, particularly John Bernthal in the lead role who manages to add depth to a role that could be very monotonous. I've always like Karen Page in the previous Marvel shows, and I thought Mehdani and Micro were good additions.

[Martell Spy]

Vincent D’Onofrio Talks Netflix’s ‘El Camino Christmas’ & the Return of Wilson Fisk on ‘Daredevil’

http://collider.com/vincent-donofrio-interview-daredevil-season-3-el-camino-christmas/#the-kid

Saw the Punisher a ways back. I was prepared to totally hate it when I learned there was going to be a military story line. However, it definitely won me over. Lots of great characters, especially Micro. The head villain was merely in the good range, but Jigsaw was excellent. I'm still trying to find a way to hate it because I wanted the Punisher fighting criminals, LOL. But the performances make it hard to criticize. I liked the whole fugitive lair hideout with Micro thing especially.

But yeah, I could seek out military shows if I wanted to watch them to any great degree, so that put me on the wrong footing with the series. And if the next story line appears to be a military one I may again be leery. I'm kind of in the weird position that while I found the show pretty great, I'm still more excited to see Daredevil, JJ, and Luke Cage, than the Punisher season 2. That could well change though depending on what trailers drop or what the next story line is.

 

[john]

On 12/13/2017 at 11:07 AM, mormont said:

I must eat my words, it seems.

I look forward to finding out the Punisher's origin story!

Whenever that was, it was clearly before the Afghanistan flashbacks which already show Frank as an unstoppable killing machine and with apparently very little control over his temper.  It can’t be that he grew up in a violent group home either, cause they already did that with Billy Russo.

Personally, I enjoyed the first episode but it got steadily worse from then until the point where Frank deliberately mutilates his enemy and leaves him alive.  Still, I do enjoy shooting and killing more than jumping about and kicking people in the head so it was always a little interesting at least.

[red snow]

Took me a long time to finish but I'd say it was one of the more consistent Marvel netflix shows and it benefitted from some great performances from Bernthal and Barnes (hope we'll get some Jigsaw down the road). I don't know much about Russo in the comics but it was a really good idea to have him closely tied to Castle. It explained his "mercy" at the end.

I wasn't so happy with the super creepy Micro watching his family via hidden cameras all the time. That was just weird and the fact it wasn't really addressed - especially at the end left an unpleasant taste.

Some elements seemed to be forgotten about eg Karen Page and I think I'd still rather have had the Punisher out there punishing rather than just dealing with a personal vendetta but we did get some sidelines like the mad bomber.

And it did feel like a lot of the episodes were more like episodes with a mission/goal eatablished and obtained within 60 minutes - something that hasn't really happened in any of the other marvel netflix shows. And no ninjas which helps.

I think it succeeded in winning back some good will after being left underwhelmed with the netflix shows since JJ season 1. Shame JJs2 is getting a lot of slow burn criticisms so far.

[RumHam]

I enjoyed this overall but if I'm remembering right the origin story is ridiculous. CIA guy hates Castle for punching him so hard he went blind in one eye. So instead of having him sniped or poisoned or extraordinarily renditioned he decides to send three different gangs to shoot at each other in the very public place where Frank and his family are hanging out. It makes no sense.