THE PUNISHER now a Netflix series

[briantw]

59 minutes ago, red snow said:

At least they are being upfront now and admitting it's a souring of the relationship and not really anything else at play. Interesting how the marvel statement made a point of saying it was Netflix not wanting to work with marvel any more. Also interesting how hulu has been strongly putting it out there that they'd be more than happy to have these shows. I don't think it will happen unless we get a much more sanitized version of the shows.

Really wish they'd make a sort of MAX brand for their movies/shows that are tailored more for an adult audience.  Worked for the comics, and quite a few of their characters clearly work better when given a longer leash. 

[red snow]

2 hours ago, briantw said:

Really wish they'd make a sort of MAX brand for their movies/shows that are tailored more for an adult audience.  Worked for the comics, and quite a few of their characters clearly work better when given a longer leash. 

Characters like Deadpool and Punisher is where it makes sense. Arguably the blade film worked because it went for a more adult approach than the comics were able to.

I'm also thinking Disney must have a branch that allows them to do more adult projects? I'm guessing the problem is the shared universe - it's tricky having adult segments of a family friendly franchise eg a kid might want to watch punisher because it's Marvel. I'm guessing that's the only real worry and while characters like Punisher are probably never going to be family friendly projects there's always the possibility that Luke Cage, Iron Fist or Daredevil could work that way. And it's going to be hard to market Daredevil hanging out in the Avengers if a chunk of the target audience aren't supposed to have been able to watch Daredevil in his own show. Otherwise I'd just say that the more adult franchises should be pointedly not in the MCU and problem solved. For all intents and purposes this is what the Netflix shows have done (or the films have done) insulating the two sufficiently that the MCU could introduce the characters into their MCU and it wouldn't cause too much of an issue. Some of us would say "I'm never watching a non Charlie Cox Daredevil" but we probably would with the right people involved and an awesome trailer.

While they've clarified that "legion" is choosing to end with season 3 (which I believe as Noah Hawley seems to have enough sway at FX to end things when he wants) it does conveniently mean the only marvel shows that will remain are those on Hulu. Although isn't FX part of Fox which in turn will wind up part of Disney? I'd have thought FX would be an ideal place to do more adult shows.

[The Anti-Targ]

I'm glad well get a final season and hopefully a decent conclusion to JJ's story. I guess it's the only series that will get a proper ending because it was probably written after the producers were told that would be the final season. Luke Cage, Daredevil and Iron Fist people probably weren't told until after the respective series were in the can.

[Corvinus85]

32 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I'm glad well get a final season and hopefully a decent conclusion to JJ's story. I guess it's the only series that will get a proper ending because it was probably written after the producers were told that would be the final season. Luke Cage, Daredevil and Iron Fist people probably weren't told until after the respective series were in the can.

Are you sure about that? They started filming season 3 at the end of June, while IF and LC were cancelled only in October. Unless they did some rewrites and reshoots, season 3 will end as originally planned. I don't know if that plan included a series end.

[mormont]

Finally finished this yesterday. It was flawed but good... up to episode 10, when it took something of a nose-dive from which it really didn't recover.

As a whole, the series has an obvious problem that many people here have noted - there are two plots that the writers stubbornly refuse to allow to coincide, even when they really could. Worse, it's handled badly - plotlines and characters get (literally, in the case of Amy) 'parked' for entire episodes at a time so the series can take Frank off for work in the other plotline. And one of the two plots is transparently an old plot that someone in the writer's room had lying around for use somewhere else, and just dusted off for use here. That's the only explanation I can see for the weirdly anachronistic B-plot with Amy and the Schulzes: camera film? Really? Blackmail and murder over a politician being gay? It's very nineties.

The other plot, with Billy, starts well but doesn't amount to much in the end. It's an interesting idea to have him lose his memory of why Frank hates him. There's a lot of potential there. But then we get episode 10.

Billy, Frank's closest friend for years, apparently needs to get his psychiatrist girlfriend to quiz Madani, who's known Frank for a very short time, to derive the secrets of Frank's psyche. Well, um, ok. And then the great secret to breaking Frank psychologically is to get him to shoot some innocents? Um, ok, again. I mean, this is not a particularly clever psychological insight and I have no idea why you need some deep knowledge of Frank's mind to come up with that one, but ok.

So then Billy's plan is to allow Frank to break into his secret warehouse base, have his gang rough Frank up, and then leave them to kill him, anticipating that Frank - disarmed and wounded - will evade death, kill 8 armed veterans, or however many it was, and pursue Billy. OK, maybe you can argue that Billy would expect Frank to be capable of this, but a, it seems inordinately risky and b, it means sacrificing the lives of most of his gang, and I don't really see why it was even necessary?

But then, the payoff is that Frank fires blind and apparently kills some innocents. Except that Billy, weirdly, bungles the setup badly in precisely the one way that he should not do. I mean, he doesn't anticipate the powder burns problem? Billy, a man whose entire training and experience section on his CV is 'shooting people'?

And it doesn't matter anyway. Because what Frank actually did wrong was fire blind. That was his sin. He didn't murder those women intentionally, he shot into the room without knowing who was there. And whether Frank killed those women by doing that or Billy did it, Frank still fired blind. But the series wants us to care only about the consequences. If he fired blind but nobody died, it's fine! Frank doesn't care about that! (And indeed he goes on to do it again, in the firefight with John Pilgrim.)

So what was the point of all that?

Then Billy's plot more or less peters out. In particular, any scene past the bit where Madani shoots him seems to only be there so Frank can be the one to put the final bullet in him. They should've just let Madani put him down. I would have preferred that.

Karen Page appears just so that Karen Page can appear, we get a good confrontation between Frank and John, Frank lets John live because he has kids (I assume none of the many people John murdered had kids?), Frank gets all teary-eyed at separating from Amy because he would 'do anything for her' (I have no idea why, the series makes at best a cursory attempt at creating a meaningful bond between them) and then Madani joins the CIA and tries to recruit Frank but he's too busy gunning down a bunch of street gang members in a scene that felt like it was from a Punisher movie made twenty years ago.

I'll say this: no shade to the actors. They were all great. Josh Stewart is amazing, and Floriana Lima does a lot with very little (I still don't understand why Krista just decides to chuck away her whole life, career, personal and professional ethics for Billy?) And there are some great individual scenes. But it doesn't come together at all, for me. Which is a shame. It had potential.

[briantw]

The worst part is that the trailer outright lied about the plot and made it seem like the two stories would merge together.  And it even made perfect sense.  One group of bad guys puts a price on Castle's head and the other group is led by the guy who hates Castle more than anyone and was leading a gang of bank robbers.  No idea how you could possibly tie those two together.

[red snow]

On 2/19/2019 at 4:05 AM, Corvinus said:

Are you sure about that? They started filming season 3 at the end of June, while IF and LC were cancelled only in October. Unless they did some rewrites and reshoots, season 3 will end as originally planned. I don't know if that plan included a series end.

I read somewhere amidst the cancellation news that the showrunner had announced she was leaving at the end of season 3 anyhow. If that's the case it may end with a bit more resolution as i can imagine it's good manners to tie up some loose ends for the new showrunner to start a clean slate? 

[WarGalley]

I just finished it and found the season to be a chore. None of the plotlines were compelling and so much didn't make sense. Frank Castle should be the FBI's #1 Most Wanted Man in America and there is zero police effort to search him out (hey folks how about you stake out his RV or his only friend in Curtis) or lock him up (1 police guard at the hospital who lets anyone pass through to see Castle?). Madhani's crybaby, trauma ordeal the whole season and Castle cover-up is an insult to women of authority and general law enforcement. Couldn't care less about the kid and who the hell thought that was a good storyline for the season. Also, why do all these women (the girlfriend, the kid, Karen, Madhani) have a "good sense" about Castle and feel comfortable in his presence? He's a fucking lunatic murderer .. you should be terrified to pass by him on the sidewalk much less aid and abet him in his crimes. The priest story went nowhere considering the character buildup. And Billy.... there was no satisfying confrontation and final conflict. Jigsaw never felt like Punisher's #1 archenemy. Jigsaw should have killed Madhani, Curtis, the kid or at least someone close to Castle in a mentally insane fit of rage. But it never happened. Given the mental illness, I almost sympathize more for Billy than for Castle.

[mormont]

57 minutes ago, WarGalley said:

(1 police guard at the hospital who lets anyone pass through to see Castle?)

Oh, that guy was hilarious. I think there were actually supposed to be 2 guards, one on the door to the room and one in the corridor? But the guard that lets three different people into the room at the same time, none of whom actually have any legitimate business there... holy shit. That dude is so fired.

1 hour ago, WarGalley said:

Madhani's crybaby, trauma ordeal the whole season and Castle cover-up is an insult to women of authority and general law enforcement.

This is just nonsense, on the other hand.

1 hour ago, WarGalley said:

The priest story went nowhere considering the character buildup.

He's not a priest. But that does remind me of another point: we find out Pilgrim used to be in a neo-Nazi gang, and pretty much nothing is done with that. One oblique reference in a conversation with Curtis. If you were watching casually, you might not even realise that Pilgrim's former gang were neo-Nazis at all. What was that about?

[WarGalley]

On 2/24/2019 at 12:52 PM, mormont said:

This is just nonsense, on the other hand.

Well I'm not interested in getting into a protracted argument over it but I did find the female characters in this show to be particularly lacking in leadership qualities (except maybe Dumont). YMMV but I'm curious to hear from a female perspective on their general reaction. I also think I was just expecting a better show overall but I'd really just rather move on to the next show.

 

 

[mormont]

3 hours ago, WarGalley said:

Well I'm not interested in getting into a protracted argument over it but I did find the female characters in this show to be particularly lacking in leadership qualities (except maybe Dumont).

What 'leadership qualities' did Dumont demonstrate? She never interacts with anyone but Billy and Madani.

As for Madani's trauma plotline, describing that as 'crybaby' and 'an insult to women' is just nonsense, sorry. Madani's ending wasn't one I liked, but the fact that the show chose to show her struggling with the psychological impact of being shot in the head - and explicitly depicted that trauma as equal to that suffered by Billy, Frank, and the veterans - was one of the stronger parts of the season, for me.