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Clash

Which story arcs have stayed closest to the books and why? (SPOILERS)

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If we assume DnD are cutting/streamlining the bits that they deem disposable or irrelevant to the bigger picture and not simply pick and choosing what they like and what they don't, then we could say Dorne (or more specifically the Martells) will play a limited role in the books, perhaps only made relevant as a complement to Aegon. The Vale storyline, I guess, can also be seen as inconsequential from that perspective. 

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3 minutes ago, Miley the Monstrous said:

If we assume DnD are cutting/streamlining the bits that they deem disposable or irrelevant to the bigger picture and not simply pick and choosing what they like and what they don't, then we could say Dorne (or more specifically the Martells) will play a limited role in the books, perhaps only made relevant as a complement to Aegon. The Vale storyline, I guess, can also be seen as inconsequential from that perspective. 

Yes, I think we could substitute Arianne/Aegon for Ellaria/Dorne and probably get to the same endpoint. Not in the same way and certainly not as well, but if a sacrifice has to be made to make the more important plotlines stay true* to the books then that's ok by me.

*For a given value of true ;)

As others have pointed out, the Bran storyline has remained true which would indicate its importance to the story. Most of what's happened on the Wall has stayed on message as well although I'm wondering why the finding of the horn has been dropped. Sometimes what's been changed the most gives a far more accurate picture of what's likely to happen in the future.

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44 minutes ago, Clash said:

From this point on though, they don't have a book to work with. They must have an outline from GRRM, because they've said it and he's confirmed this when asked. So there will continue to be differences from the book, some will be of the nature of condensation and some will be because of past changes. But as we get closer to the end (and we're in that final stretch now), the points of divergence can't be that far for the stories to have the same ending.

I'm assuming that they'll have the same ending because that's presumably the outline GRRM gave them and what they're working towards. A bit like a game of golf really; everyone starts from the tee and ends in the hole, but there are many different ways of getting there: some bits are rough, some are smooth and some are sandy. ;)

Which is the point of this thread really. Figure out the endgame from what the show is doing.

Of course if it morphs into Xena, all bets are off :D

Well they say that they're aiming towards the same end game. But they also said that Season 5 was mostly faithful to the books. Their conception of hitting the same points is not the same as ours. I expect there'll be a war against the Others and Jon will be a Targ and whoever ends up king in the end will be the same. But beyond that we really can't say. Even major character deaths...maybe Tyrion dies in the books but gets a happy ending with a hot wife in the show. We don't know.

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And just in general - surely the books are a more accurate indicator of what will be relevant in the books? Like people say that Dorne's treatment on the show means it won't be important to the books. But in the books Dorne basically has a neon sign over it telling us it will be important and is already linking up with other big plot lines. Martin didn't give us Arianne (arguably the most layered and complex character introduced post-clash of kings) just for her to be of no importance. All the Dornish massacre means is that Dorne won't be important on the show. 

If Dorne in the books only exist to "complement" Aegon, that's important. Martin basically told us he'd be Dany's primary first threat upon arriving in Westeros.

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17 minutes ago, protar said:

And just in general - surely the books are a more accurate indicator of what will be relevant in the books? Like people say that Dorne's treatment on the show means it won't be important to the books. But in the books Dorne basically has a neon sign over it telling us it will be important and is already linking up with other big plot lines. Martin didn't give us Arianne (arguably the most layered and complex character introduced post-clash of kings) just for her to be of no importance. All the Dornish massacre means is that Dorne won't be important on the show. 

If Dorne in the books only exist to "complement" Aegon, that's important. Martin basically told us he'd be Dany's primary first threat upon arriving in Westeros.

Exactly. The weird idea that plots and characters introduced in AFfC/ADwD are not going to be important in the story is just silly. Robert and Ned, Robb and Renly (and perhaps even Joff and Tywin) were irrelevant in the grand scale of things - but Aegon, Euron, and Arianne are not because they most likely will stick around until the very end of the book series.

The show already proved that it has a very weird idea of adapting stuff when it cut most of the real Riverlands and Tully plots and replaced it with Robb's stupid love story, not to mention the slow pace of season 3 with clumsy intrigue at KL and strange fillers.

That they would end scrap the whole Dorne plot after season 5 was pretty obvious. Nobody was there anymore, and it was pretty obvious that another location was too much for them to handle considering the acting in the Dornish scenes.

Now I guess they will invent completely new filler material for the KL stories because they can't do anything that will come in the books. There is no Aegon and there is no Tyrell-Lannister enmity/hatred, so I guess the viewers are in for another sequence of clumsy scheming perhaps with a little bit of Littlefinger teleporting.

My personal guess is that the show is going to set things up for a Cersei-Dany confrontation or something like that. And I'm pretty sure that is *not* what's going to happen in the books. In any way, it seems clear that we are not going to get the full picture of the actual TWoW KL story, and the lack thereof and the already changed dynamic between Cersei and Jaime (and Brienne) might very well result in a completely different ending point for those characters - which might (due to the butterfly effect) also severely change Daenerys' story in Westeros.

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15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Now I guess they will invent completely new filler material for the KL stories because they can't do anything that will come in the books. There is no Aegon and there is no Tyrell-Lannister enmity/hatred, so I guess the viewers are in for another sequence of clumsy scheming perhaps with a little bit of Littlefinger teleporting..

Is it not far more likely that Ellaria/Dorne will take the place of Aegon/Araianne/Dorne and culminate in the same way?

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Just now, Clash said:

Is it not far more likely that Ellaria/Dorne will take the place of Aegon/Araianne/Dorne and culminate in the same way?

Well, I did not watch the episode so I've no idea what's actually happening but considering that there is no other Targaryen pretender and no Quentyn there is little chance that Dorne will - in any shape or form - play the same role as Dorne in the books makes no sense. Dorne would lack a pretender to challenge King Tommen, and it should - for all intents of purposes - also lack the strength to deal with the combined might of Highgarden and Casterly Rock.

And it depends on what you think 'culminate in the same way' means? What do you mean by that? That the show - which cut Aegon entirely and introduced a travesty that was called 'Dorne' - can, despite all those cuts and changes, arrive at loosely the same point as the books will? I really don't see that happening.

Kevan and Pycelle are still alive and kicking in the show, and there is no reason to believe that things will deteriorate in the same way in the city. The show can create armies and threat out of thin air, of course, so perhaps there are some battles but I really think the show is aiming at that 'huge dragons flying over KL vision' from an earlier season (the fourth, I think) rather than anything else. There certainly could be a war between and Dorne and the Lannisters but it won't be the same.

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Well, in my opinion, the show has fallen into the same trap that on-screen adaptations like Harry Potter fall victim to. As one of the few people who haven't read a Harry Potter novel and yet was subjected to many of the films, I have to say that I wasn't a fan. I understand that the novels were probably very good, yet the movies became like a visual accompaniment to the book rather than a stand-alone product. Nothing made since and things were just happening because they happened in the book.

D&D's adaptation has run into the same problem. They are continually needing to check off boxes(Is ARYA in BRAVOS? Check. Is JON SNOW dead at CASTLE BLACK? Check.) and the manner in which one part of the plot connects to the next doesn't make any sense or follow any type of logic.

Season one worked so well because the material was almost a perfect fit for adaptation. Now we have this weird hybrid show where D&D are still checking off plot points but they have to try and invent the threads that connect them and they aren't very good at it.

So, in a way, I feel like all the storylines are pretty much equally close and yet just as far as their book counterparts. All D&D are looking to do is connect to the very end point of each character arc, even if it invalidates anything from the book or what has come before it. The season finales and premier episodes are usually where these plot contrivances happen to put the characters in the right place. 

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7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I did not watch the episode so I've no idea what's actually happening but considering that there is no other Targaryen pretender and no Quentyn there is little chance that Dorne will - in any shape or form - play the same role as Dorne in the books makes no sense. Dorne would lack a pretender to challenge King Tommen, and it should - for all intents of purposes - also lack the strength to deal with the combined might of Highgarden and Casterly Rock.

There is some doubt (if not outright disbelief) in Aegon's Targaryen heritage. Be that as it may, he's clearly on a collision course with the Lannisters, whether immediately or by a circuitous route through the Stormlands. Currently on the show it looks like a very similar collision is in store between Dorne and the Lanisters for entirely different reasons.

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Just now, Clash said:

 Currently on the show it looks like a very similar collision is in store between Dorne and the Lanisters for entirely different reasons.

Yes, Dorne is taking the place of Aegon on the show. Even though as I was just saying, none of these plot threads connect in any way that makes sense. Ellaria is now in control of Dorne and has the respect of all the people(even Doran's personal bodyguards sans the walking axe). Dorne is going to war with King's Landing because of REVENGE! 

What this means is that whatever the end result of Aegon's incursion is, the end result of this Dornish war will be the same exact thing.

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8 minutes ago, Fredwin said:

Yes, Dorne is taking the place of Aegon on the show. Even though as I was just saying, none of these plot threads connect in any way that makes sense. Ellaria is now in control of Dorne and has the respect of all the people(even Doran's personal bodyguards sans the walking axe). Dorne is going to war with King's Landing because of REVENGE! 

What this means is that whatever the end result of Aegon's incursion is, the end result of this Dornish war will be the same exact thing.

Yes, exactly. We will inevitably (inevitably being at a very far remove) find the story arc in the books to be more intriguing and interesting, but the fact remains that the show's priducers have picked some arcs to concentrate on and have sacrificed a lot of the depth (or just a lot) of lesser arcs for the sake of expediency.

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17 hours ago, Fredwin said:

Yes, Dorne is taking the place of Aegon on the show. Even though as I was just saying, none of these plot threads connect in any way that makes sense. Ellaria is now in control of Dorne and has the respect of all the people(even Doran's personal bodyguards sans the walking axe). Dorne is going to war with King's Landing because of REVENGE! 

What this means is that whatever the end result of Aegon's incursion is, the end result of this Dornish war will be the same exact thing.

That is not very likely, actually. A war between Dorne and the Lannisters is not going to be the same as a war between Aegon supported by the Dornish and the Lannisters/Tyrells.

Especially because it seems as if Dorne might end up fighting Dany while there is no reason why the hell Dorne (without a pretender of its own) should not team up with Dany. In fact, considering that show Dany most likely will be arriving in Westeros much earlier than book Dany (if we keep in mind how much plots the show has already cut/ended) she might not need to fight all that much to take the Iron Throne. She'll have big dragons, Tommen (if still alive) is a joke, and the Lannisters weakened by the Dornish might not be able to resist her.

Not to mention that the Dornish will have no reason at all in the show to not join Dany or ally with her - but Arianne Martell and Aegon most likely might.

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4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not very likely, actually. A war between Dorne and the Lannisters is not going to be the same as a war between Aegon supported by the Dornish and the Lannisters/Tyrells.

Especially because it seems as if Dorne might end up fighting Dany while there is no reason why the hell Dorne (without a pretender of its own) should not team up with Dany. In fact, considering that show Dany most likely will be arriving in Westeros much earlier than book Dany (if we keep in mind how much plots the show has already cut/ended) she might not need to fight all that much to take the Iron Throne. She'll have big dragons, Tommen (if still alive) is a joke, and the Lannisters weakened by the Dornish might not be able to resist her.

Not to mention that the Dornish will have no reason at all in the show to not join Dany or ally with her - but Arianne Martell and Aegon most likely might.

Is this not inevitable no matter who is on the Dornish side? Aegon is severely weakened by the storms that split up and probably lost half his force. So it's primarily a Dornish force commanded by Arianne instead of a Dornish force commanded by Ellaria. If they start a war with the Lannisters (seems inevitable either way), then both sides are severely weakened and Dany meets virtually no opposition.

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2 minutes ago, Clash said:

Is this not inevitable no matter who is on the Dornish side? Aegon is severely weakened by the storms that split up and probably lost half his force. So it's primarily a Dornish force commanded by Arianne instead of a Dornish force commanded by Ellaria. If they start a war with the Lannisters (seems inevitable either way), then both sides are severely weakened and Dany meets virtually no opposition.

We know that the books will include a Second Dance of the Dragons. If that is going to resemble in any way the first it will be (mostly) about the fight between King Aegon VI Targaryen and Daenerys I Targaryen. The setup for that will be Aegon's rise to the Iron Throne and him winning both the love of the people (perhaps through the new High Septon declaring for him) as well as the loyalty of many noble houses all across the Realm.

The House of the Undying vision of Aegon showed him symbolized as the cloth dragon on poles in front of a cheering - meaning he is going to have a lot of success before he is eventually going down. As of yet nobody has cheered him, and he most likely would not be cheered at all if he doesn't win any battles soon.

Connington didn't yet receive word where all the Golden Company soldiers were dropped off but there was no hint/talk about storms making it likely that they lost ships. And Arianne 2 actually suggests that more ships have dropped off soldiers in the meantime.

The crucial plot line that is obviously missing in the show is the whole Quentyn story which seems to be preparing a coming rift between House Martell and Targaryen - something that is not likely to make it into the show in any shape of form. And that, in turn, could mean that Daenerys is not going to be welcomed as 'savior' in the books whereas the show will skip that whole plot. And then, of course, any fighting during this coming Second Dance will inevitably lead to other plots, events, and deaths which won't even show up in the show.

We also have the fact to keep in mind that KL has been completely changed from the books. Kevan and Pycelle are still around, the Tyrells have been effectively neutralized as a political faction of their own (because Mace is a joke, Loras a prisoner, and Olenna/Margaery neither generals nor, apparently, in charge of all that many men). Finally, and most importantly, Varys isn't there in KL to destabilize the government and make the city ripe for a Targaryen restoration.

The Cersei-Jaime dynamic is also completely changed which should also lead to different outcomes. In the books Jaime and Brienne are together right now and are, most likely, destined to remain together or at least follow a similar path rather than doing whatever they are doing in the show.

The changes in Slaver's Bay makes it also very likely that Dany is going to be able to return to Westeros and perhaps even take the Iron Throne this season. All she needs to do is get back there. And we know that people occasionally teleport half across the world in this show.

From that perspective, the show is no longer telling even remotely the same story as the books, and whatever climaxes are coming in the show won't share many similarities with the climaxes. If you reach a certain breaking point you cannot possibly get something like this show 'back on track' without ruining everything. It tells a different story for quite some time, in fact, I'd say since season 2 (and for some minor plot lines even since season 1). The breaking point was reached in seasons 3 & 4 with season 5 making this fact obvious to anyone.

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The fanfiction comparison is useful, I think, insofar as thinking about GOT moving through the stations of canon. It's like an AU Harry Potter fanfiction. Sure, Harry will live in a cupboard, go to Hogwarts, have some confrontation at the DOM, and fight Voldemort at the end. But everything in the middle is drastically different. So, yeah, Jon or Arya might end up in the same place at the end of GOT and ASOIF in the broadest sense, but I'm getting won over by Zhebyshov's argument that all that stuff that fills in the details is really important.

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47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We know that the books will include a Second Dance of the Dragons. If that is going to resemble in any way the first it will be (mostly) about the fight between King Aegon VI Targaryen and Daenerys I Targaryen. The setup for that will be Aegon's rise to the Iron Throne and him winning both the love of the people (perhaps through the new High Septon declaring for him) as well as the loyalty of many noble houses all across the Realm.

Is that really likely though. If Aegon is 'the mummer's dragon' then what chance him having dragons? It certainly means (dragons or no) that it wouldnt be a dance of the dragons in the true sense. So if Aegon is dragonless (and he certainly is right now) and not a Targaryen, then how could he be party to the dance?

He obviously might be truly Aegon, but in that case can he also be the mummer's dragon?

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1 hour ago, Clash said:

Is that really likely though. If Aegon is 'the mummer's dragon' then what chance him having dragons? It certainly means (dragons or no) that it wouldnt be a dance of the dragons in the true sense. So if Aegon is dragonless (and he certainly is right now) and not a Targaryen, then how could he be party to the dance?

He obviously might be truly Aegon, but in that case can he also be the mummer's dragon?

Oh, the Dance of the Dragons most likely didn't get its name mainly because dragonriders were fighting each other - although that would have been a part of that, too - but because the two Targaryen pretenders involved there were Rhaenyra I and Aegon II, a man and a woman.

It might turn out that Dany still has three dragons and a huge army and navy of many disparate peoples while Aegon VI has the loyalty of most of the lords of Westeros by the time she finally arrives. You have to keep in mind that a lot of plots will fill pages in TWoW - the battle(s) at Meereen, Dany's Dothraki plot, Meereen, eventually Volantis and possibly even Pentos, not to mention all the Westeros plots which continue at the same time.

If Aegon has success he might very well be in charge of nearly the entire continent by the time Dany arrives. And he could certainly also acquire a dragon - either one of Dany's through a series of events getting either Viserion or Rhaegal to Westeros before Dany even returns to Slaver's Bay - or another dragon might just show up.

Tommen vs. Dany just makes for a very poor story, and either does Dany just arriving and meeting no resistance at all. In the book Aegon is really set up as Dany's future enemy and that in itself is meaning that the show and the books will go separate paths. It is pretty much impossible that the show will be able to even try to tell the same story or hit the same points when things are so different. Not only Dorne will change Aegon but many houses in Westeros, and possibly even major POV characters.

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17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, the Dance of the Dragons most likely didn't get its name mainly because dragonriders were fighting each other - although that would have been a part of that, too - but because the two Targaryen pretenders involved there were Rhaenyra I and Aegon II, a man and a woman.

It might turn out that Dany still has three dragons and a huge army and navy of many disparate peoples while Aegon VI has the loyalty of most of the lords of Westeros by the time she finally arrives. You have to keep in mind that a lot of plots will fill pages in TWoW - the battle(s) at Meereen, Dany's Dothraki plot, Meereen, eventually Volantis and possibly even Pentos, not to mention all the Westeros plots which continue at the same time.

What I mean is that whichever level you view the meaning of 'dragons' in the dance of the dragons, there's a possible inherent contradiction in Aegon. Whichever way it goes he's either the mummer's dragon or he's not. If he's not then who is?

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Just now, Clash said:

What I mean is that whichever level you view the meaning of 'dragons' in the dance of the dragons, there's a possible inherent contradiction in Aegon. Whichever way it goes he's either the mummer's dragon or he's not. If he's not then who is?

Oh, it makes no matter whether he is Rhaegar's son or not. A majority of the people in Westeros will either believe he is, want to believe he is, or just not care (just as very few people actually care whether Joff, Tommen, and Myrcella are actually the children of Robert - or rather: they don't allow their personal opinions about that question influence their political/opportunistic decisions).

Aegon as a dragonrider could easily enough work if he has some Targaryen/dragonlord ancestors (either through some pure-blooded Valyrian whore from Lys, or due to the fact that he is Blackfyre descendant through the female line).

I think we should not interpret the whole cloth dragon/mummer's dragon necessarily as 'fake dragon' but rather as a Targaryen claimant used by others in their game for a specific purpose. Those would be Varys/Illyrio, of course, but that doesn't mean he isn't a Targaryen (or rather: has no Targaryen blood).

The cloth dragon visions comes in context of the 'Slayer of Lies' portion of Dany's prophecies, and just as Stannis is a real king and a trueborn Baratheon Aegon could actually be Rhaegar's son and a true king, too - what neither he nor Stannis are is the promised prince/the reborn Azor Ahai/the savior who is going to rescue Westeros.

That seems to be Dany (or she may be part of a savior trinity - the other dragon heads - who play that part). The idea that destiny, prophecies, and visions actually care about who has the best legal claim to a throne or who is the rightful king always sounded strange to me. That would be pretty cheap in my opinion. Especially in light of the fact that George usually hammers home the fact that those question do not have clear answers.

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25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think we should not interpret the whole cloth dragon/mummer's dragon necessarily as 'fake dragon' but rather as a Targaryen claimant used by others in their game for a specific purpose. Those would be Varys/Illyrio, of course, but that doesn't mean he isn't a Targaryen (or rather: has no Targaryen blood).

The cloth dragon visions comes in context of the 'Slayer of Lies' portion of Dany's prophecies, and just as Stannis is a real king and a trueborn Baratheon Aegon could actually be Rhaegar's son and a true king, too - what neither he nor Stannis are is the promised prince/the reborn Azor Ahai/the savior who is going to rescue Westeros.

Perhaps you're right. If mummer is substituted by puppeteer then that would work. Probably doesn't need substitution. Cloth dragon was what had me thinking about fakes, especially in the context of the slayer of lies.

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