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norwaywolf123

Why and Where does the Dany/Jon love theory com from?

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  1. The (mistaken) idea that Dany is "fire" and Jon is "ice" and that must mean they'll fall in love and make babies. I say "mistaken" because it never occurs to these people that Jon is already both on his own. Which is, I'm willing to bet, the point of making him half-Stark and half-Targaryen.
  2. The basic cliche of "main guy goes with main girl." Which is why Hermione married Harry and Leia ended up marrying and committing incest with Luke. Oh wait.
  3. They interpret the House of the Undying prophecy in a specific way. Dany sees a blue rose growing out of the Wall that fills the air with "sweetness," and a lot of people think this flower symbolizes Jon and the "sweetness" means that she and Jon will fall in love. Less noticed is that sweetness and sweet smells are repeatedly used as anegative in the story in general and for Dany in particular.
  4. If both Dany and Jon are Targaryens, some people think that means they will or must continue the incest tradition and get married.
  5. Some people think they'll have to get married for political considerations. I never understood this one. Jon marrying Dany doesn't help him a fig politically in the North. If Jon can prove he's a legitimate Targaryen, then his claim trumps hers and he doesn't need her. And if Jon can't prove he's a legitimate Targaryen and is still just known as Ned's bastard, then he's of no political use to Dany.
  6. The fact that their trajectories seem to be parallel (I'd actually say they're foils) to each other. This suggests that at some point they'll collide in some way.

I'm not saying GRRM won't have them meet cute, because anything is possible. I just don't much see the rationale for it, and if it does happen, I don't see it ending well. Jon is nothing like the dangerous, exciting "bad boys" Dany usually goes for, and I think Jon would be pretty contemptuous of a lot of what Dany's doing and her attitude in general.

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Jon's and Dany's storylines have walked in a parallel: "outcast from an important family is raised to a position of power in which s/he has to unite the foreigners into his/her cause and bring important changes for a greater good, while also failing due to inexperience".

That, along with the sense of longing for a family and a wish to belong. Both Jon and Dany have expressed wishes to have a family, and they both lament hardly the fact they might never have children on their own.

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Generally speaking, shipping has more to do with feelings than rational thought. And I don't mean that in a derogatory sense at all. But if you're looking for logic in a ship, I'd wager you'd be hard-pressed to find some. 

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It's either they become friends/allies/lover or they become enemies. Some believe they will become lovers, some believe they will become enemies.

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If they do unite, it will be a political marriage to unite the North and the South. But I think either or both will die before the end. 

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Mostly fan wish fulfillment IMO. I am sure others will disagree.

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Aegon married Visenya for duty, Rhaenys for love.

Rhaegar married Elia for duty, Lyanna for love.

Jon will marry Dany for duty, Arya for love.

^__^

 

 

 

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On 5/1/2016 at 11:50 AM, norwaywolf123 said:
  1. The (mistaken) idea that Dany is "fire" and Jon is "ice" and that must mean they'll fall in love and make babies. I say "mistaken" because it never occurs to these people that Jon is already both on his own. Which is, I'm willing to bet, the point of making him half-Stark and half-Targaryen.
  2. The basic cliche of "main guy goes with main girl." Which is why Hermione married Harry and Leia ended up marrying and committing incest with Luke. Oh wait.
  3. They interpret the House of the Undying prophecy in a specific way. Dany sees a blue rose growing out of the Wall that fills the air with "sweetness," and a lot of people think this flower symbolizes Jon and the "sweetness" means that she and Jon will fall in love. Less noticed is that sweetness and sweet smells are repeatedly used as anegative in the story in general and for Dany in particular.
  4. If both Dany and Jon are Targaryens, some people think that means they will or must continue the incest tradition and get married.
  5. Some people think they'll have to get married for political considerations. I never understood this one. Jon marrying Dany doesn't help him a fig politically in the North. If Jon can prove he's a legitimate Targaryen, then his claim trumps hers and he doesn't need her. And if Jon can't prove he's a legitimate Targaryen and is still just known as Ned's bastard, then he's of no political use to Dany.
  6. The fact that their trajectories seem to be parallel (I'd actually say they're foils) to each other. This suggests that at some point they'll collide in some way.

I'm not saying GRRM won't have them meet cute, because anything is possible. I just don't much see the rationale for it, and if it does happen, I don't see it ending well. Jon is nothing like the dangerous, exciting "bad boys" Dany usually goes for, and I think Jon would be pretty contemptuous of a lot of what Dany's doing and her attitude in general.

I don't particularly care if they end up together or not but my interest in if it happens or not is due to my curiosity towards whether or not there's any significance to maintaining the bloodlines, which has come up to many times to not be answered in my opinion.  If it ends up being R+L=J and that he's TPTWP then when you look at the story as a whole, it was damn near pure luck that the prophecy was fulfilled.  If we then look to the future and any possibility that the LN can happen again, it might be wise to have the bloodlines more intact and closer together.

 

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1 hour ago, IceFire125 said:

Aegon married Visenya for duty, Rhaenys for love.

Rhaegar married Elia for duty, Lyanna for love.

Jon will marry Dany for duty, Arya for love.

^__^

 

 

 

WTF

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Some people think they'll have to get married for political considerations. I never understood this one. Jon marrying Dany doesn't help him a fig politically in the North. If Jon can prove he's a legitimate Targaryen, then his claim trumps hers and he doesn't need her. And if Jon can't prove he's a legitimate Targaryen and is still just known as Ned's bastard, then he's of no political use to Dany

i dont get it, daenery is kings daughter, why some bastard whose father wasnt king would have better claim than last remaining kid of king ? because she is woman? i doubt daenerys would accept this as legit reason

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6 hours ago, blckp said:

i dont get it, daenery is kings daughter, why some bastard whose father wasnt king would have better claim than last remaining kid of king ? because she is woman? i doubt daenerys would accept this as legit reason

It goes back to several precedents set by great councils during the Targaryen reign.  Males generally inherit in a disputed succession over females.  As well in a majority of the 7k females are last to inherit if there's a legit male claimant.  Also has to do with whom is the closest relative to the original line.  The Dance of Dragons in The Princess and the Queen highlights most of these precedents.  Only a handful of houses sided with Rhaenyra's claim over Aegon's during the Dance.  

Misogyny at its finest... but it'll be interesting to see how it goes down.  

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While it would certainly be a political marriage (if it happens) to reunite the Seven Kingdoms, that does not necessarily rule out that they wouldn't love each other (or even have great affection for each other). Certainly they have walked a parallel path: both were outcasts, both were "sent away" as soon as it was feasible, both loved and lost (and their lovers died in their arms) and both have been raised to command and win the respect of hundreds (if not thousands). They also both have an affinity for magical beasts (in Dany's case Dragons and in John's the Direwolf).

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The only argument we can really push is the House of the Undying and that is so vague it could mean anything. There are about 50 interpretations of that.

I don't even buy the parallel stories idea because Jon has parallels with Jaime and Ned too. It doesn't mean Jaime and Jon are going to be lovers. Dany has paralleled Cersei and Arya in her story too, some loving between Dany and Cersei is far more likely. Also note the little bits GRRM puts in that may suggest antagonism, like paralleling Selyse watching her brother die with Dany and Jon's disgust.

Also bear in mind Jon and Dany have not met yet. 2 books to go, 20 POV chapters between them per book anticipated and they have not met. In a story with a huge cast of characters to service too. Dany has to get out of Vaes Dothrak, re-conquer Meereen, sail to Westeros and deal with Aegon before she thinks of going North. That is 10 chapters in itself. Jon needs to get over dying and probably confront Ramsey and the Boltons as he had planned to do. Say that takes us to ADOS, 20 POV chapters left with a Zombie apocolypse.

I'm skeptical. I'm not completely out of believing it. It could end up being an unsatisfying political union for example but I just can't see a grand love affair brewing right now.

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On 5/1/2016 at 5:50 PM, norwaywolf123 said:
  1. The (mistaken) idea that Dany is "fire" and Jon is "ice" and that must mean they'll fall in love and make babies. I say "mistaken" because it never occurs to these people that Jon is already both on his own. Which is, I'm willing to bet, the point of making him half-Stark and half-Targaryen.

I always believe that it may end up as a main guy and main girl match up (As in: Jon Ice and Dany Fire) but i don't think so now.

When GRRM speaks about fights or sword play he often describes the clash of steel swords as a "song"..as in "the song of steel on steel as the two fought".

It's this that makes me think Jon is TPTWP and his purpose / destiny is "a song of ice and fire" (his purpose is to command in the battle of Ice and Fire) rather than him being Ice (Stark) & Fire (Targ).

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42 minutes ago, TheNecromancerofMirkwood said:

While it would certainly be a political marriage (if it happens) to reunite the Seven Kingdoms, that does not necessarily rule out that they wouldn't love each other (or even have great affection for each other). Certainly they have walked a parallel path: both were outcasts, both were "sent away" as soon as it was feasible, both loved and lost (and their lovers died in their arms) and both have been raised to command and win the respect of hundreds (if not thousands). They also both have an affinity for magical beasts (in Dany's case Dragons and in John's the Direwolf).

There are no political benefits from this marriage. If Dany want ally in westeros, she could marry willas, while jon would sooner wed arianne for alliance. Also remember that if Jon is true Targaryen he will lose his claim on north.

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Some wet dream people have with the idea of 2 Targs, polar opposite of ice an fire, will come together to defeat the Others and live happily ever after.

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Some thoughts:

> Speaking of 'natural' main guy - main girl match up, why no one ever ships Dany with Tyrion?

> The best Westerosi husband for Dany was Robb :'( Right age, good alliance, only if they forgot the past and listened to wiser elders.. He even got the blue eyes she likes so much.

> I see so many fans opposing Jon-Dany marriage because (i) They hate Dany and love Jon (ii) They like Dany but want her to end up with someone else (Jorah, FAegon, etc).  (iii) The main guy  weds main girl is a literary trope.

I agree with the third category, but the other two irritates me. I am curious as to how Martin will write Jon-Dany interactions, but I am open-minded as to anything that happen - they might end up killing each other, or loving each other, but I trust GRRM to write it in a believable way. I hope that it won't be like her marriage with Hizdahr, Robb's marriage with Jeyne, or Catelyn's kidnapping of Tyrion - all of which upset the fans of these characters (I stopped being Cat fan after that move).

> Why people think Jon and Dany may end up together, other than conventional expectations:

  • House of the Undying prophesies about 'ride to love',  'fire to love', treason for love, all seem related to Jon.
  • Dany has a dream about lying with a man with ice-cold manhood, and Bran's visions about Jon show him losing all warmth. Jon becoming an ice-zombie or night king type character is well studied.
  • Both characters' story arcs run parallel with many similarities. As mentioned above. But how they deal with those situations are different, which is part of the reason many people dislike Dany.
  • There are signs of complementing personalities if you put the effort to look for them, like how Dany has what Jon wanted as a child (titles, conqueror streak) and Jon had what Dany always wanted (home, family). But there are also signs why they would never work, which is why I am simply waiting for GRRM to write it out his way.

 

 

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13 hours ago, blckp said:

i dont get it, daenery is kings daughter, why some bastard whose father wasnt king would have better claim than last remaining kid of king ? because she is woman? i doubt daenerys would accept this as legit reason

 

7 hours ago, Ser Knute said:

It goes back to several precedents set by great councils during the Targaryen reign.  Males generally inherit in a disputed succession over females.  As well in a majority of the 7k females are last to inherit if there's a legit male claimant.  Also has to do with whom is the closest relative to the original line.  The Dance of Dragons in The Princess and the Queen highlights most of these precedents.  Only a handful of houses sided with Rhaenyra's claim over Aegon's during the Dance.  

Misogyny at its finest... but it'll be interesting to see how it goes down.  

It actually doesn't have anything to do with misogyny in this situation. Assuming Jon's legitimate of-course. Not saying that succession in Westeros isn't in general, but in this situation it isn't.

Assuming he's legitimate and R+L=J, then it wouldn't matter if Dany was a male or a female. Jon would have a better claim then her, the same way Aegon has a better claim if he is truely legitimate. If Viserys was alive Jon would have a better claim then him as well.

Big or Little Walder (forget which) said it to Bran in Winterfell 

"The son's son comes before the Brother"

So legally the crown would pass from Aerys II to Rhaegar then to Rhaegar's kids. So Aegon first because he is older and then Jon. After that goes to Aerys next son, so Viserys. Assuming Dany was male, she would come next. 

 

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From the fangirling in tumblr who believe that the protagonist have to fall in love in the end. It doesn't matter than either of them is the others taste.

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