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Why and Where does the Dany/Jon love theory com from?


norwaywolf123

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15 hours ago, lojzelote said:

Correction; A male hero of a humble background and noble bloodline who owns a shiny sword usually saves the world and gets it all. Leading women get usually redelegated into the role of a love interest, a sidekick, or an antagonist. But the male and female hero on the same footing? Not that common at all.

With Jon and Dany people tend to bring up Aragorn and Arwen, but the truth is, Dany is herself much more an Aragorn than an Arwen. Arwen became a more prominent character in the movies, but in the books she's pretty one-note.

 

Exactly. Dany and Jon are equally important to the narrative, and that's not at all common for a romantic relationship in a fantasy/sci-fi story. Most stories would have Jon paired with a "trophy" rather than someone who has the potential to overshadow him. So of course Jonsus Snow fans - the people who think Jon is the one-and-only hero and saviour of the Westeros - would feel uneasy at the idea of Jon and Dany together.

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You guys are funny. So if I got this right, we are to ignore George's own work (he does write things other than ASOIAF) and his own way of writing and pairing people up just so we can compare ASOIAF to another author (that is in no way George), and an author that Goerge has said he didn't like the way some of that authors character endings happen/he would have done them differently, and George has said of this other author that he, "is very different from Tolkien and writes very different type of books." So, we should claim George is doing a Tolkien rip off for a main arc because it suits our personal theories?  

This is boggling. Truly boggling. 

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1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 So, we should claim George is doing a Tolkien rip off for a main arc because it suits our personal theories?  

This is boggling. Truly boggling. 

This is human nature.

Been going on since speech was invented :D

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4 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Exactly. Dany and Jon are equally important to the narrative, and that's not at all common for a romantic relationship in a fantasy/sci-fi story. Most stories would have Jon paired with a "trophy" rather than someone who has the potential to overshadow him. So of course Jonsus Snow fans - the people who think Jon is the one-and-only hero and saviour of the Westeros - would feel uneasy at the idea of Jon and Dany together.

Main boy and main girl? You're right, never done before. 

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17 hours ago, Lady bonehead said:

Either Jon or Dany, or both, is almost certainly infertile, so a normal marriage with kids ain't gonna happen. In fact after dying and being resurrected I wouldn't be surprised if Jon isn't just infertile but actually impotent. I always had him pegged as a sacrificial hero who dies for the greater good or perhaps becomes a perpetual Undead hero. But perhaps it is Dany who will end up being the sacrificial hero. 

We have to wait and see whether Jon got stabbed in the groins, too. It is not that unlikely. Nor do I think zombie-sperm is a good or proper way to make 'normal babies'. I'd not want to be the child of such a person, not even in a fantasy novel.

We can also be pretty sure that Jon's death and subsequent resurrection means he is going to lay down his life for a good and all in the final battle. That is what such people usually do. Not to mention, you know, that the magic bringing him back (and keeping him alive) might no longer work when the Long Night is over.

The idea that the guy going through death and resurrection ends up living a mundane life simply makes no sense. That's not the kind of thing this type of fantasy hero does. Jon is Rhaegar's son. And Rhaegar died in his last battle, too, right?

Perhaps - perhaps - Dany is going to give birth to their love child (having love transcend prophecy and the effects of magical resurrection) so that something of Jon lives on after his death.

I always considered it more likely that Jon would die heroically in battle or sacrifice himself to defeat the Others than that Dany (who simply is neither a warrior nor a classical male hero) is going to do that, but the fact that George killed Jon to bring him back from the dead sold the deal for me.

I'd be very surprised if Jon ended up surviving the series. Just as I never believed Beric or Catelyn will survive the series. And the same goes for freak Victarion, 'Ser Robert Strong' and even a person as twisted/crippled as Theon and Jaime. They might get a good exit but they will die.

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8 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

This is human nature.

Been going on since speech was invented :D

Phew! That's good to know. 

I don't mind crackpot as long as people admit it is crackpot. And claiming George is ripping off Tolkien, even after George repeatedly points out how different they are as authors, and how George says he would have done some Tolkien story stuff differently, it pretty darn crackpot. 

George is really good at thinking for himself. Like, really. Seriously, just read his old work and you can see how much of his own themes and character archetypes he likes to use. 

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1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

George says he would have done some Tolkien story stuff differently

SHUDDERS

Arwen raped by the Balrog and her skull caved in, Galadriel dancing on the corpses of her enemies while having an orgy with a gaggle of Haldir's and drinking wine from a cup made from Celeborn's skull, Aragorn being a bum-boy to Glorfindel ...

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18 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

Arwen raped by the Balrog and her skull caved in, Galadriel dancing on the corpses of her enemies while having an orgy with a gaggle of Haldir's and drinking wine from a cup made from Celeborn's skull, Aragorn being a bum-boy to Glorfindel ...

None are specific to Tolkien or George, but to historic myth, tales and political history. Tolkien did not invent these either. Perhaps you have missed in one of George's anthologies, or even in interviews, where he talks of taking these inspirations and twisting them into his own. Even with the Norse myths, he doesn't use them one to one, from start to finish. 

George respects Tolkien, but he repeatedly says he is not like Tolkien, and he is not writing the same type of story as Tolkien. So, to you and a few others, this somehow means George is using Tolkien's storyline word for word? That is not flattery, but plagiarism. 

  • GRRM- This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with.
  • I take stuff from the Wars of the Roses and other fantasy things, and all these things work around in my head and somehow they jell into what I hope is uniquely my own.

And to ignore the authors words where he makes it clear otherwise just so you can insert your own preference and pass it off as "truth" is nothing but wishful thinking and fan fiction. I could wish for big-eyed, green-skinned, astro-zombies all I want, but I am not going to get them in the story. 

If you read what George says, other authors like Jack Vance and Tad Williams, and even Shakespeare to a smaller degree, 50's Sci Fi movies, and comic books, comic books, comic books are definitely direct influences on him. 

  • "he says that the American comic book author and publisher Stan Lee helped define his writing more than Tolkien."
  • “Maybe Stan Lee is the greatest literary influence on me, even more than Shakespeare or Tolkien.”
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Oh, I have no problem with GRRM not being Tolkien - or vice versa :)

I have no axes to grind as to GRRM's style or inspirations or whatever :)

I'm not claiming  that he is plagiarising anybody - I simply see him as skillfully mashing together various OTL events, cultures, etc.

And I'm not ascribing any of theories to GRRM - all my waky ideas are my own :D

 

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On 7/23/2017 at 7:54 AM, Lollygag said:

One should be careful about the use of "sweet" in this series.

Sweet—Lannisters & Viserys use “sweet sister”

AGOT Daenerys I He (Willem Darry) never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor.

Dany had no agents, no way of knowing what anyone was doing or thinking across the narrow sea, but she mistrusted Illyrio's sweet words as she mistrusted everything about Illyrio.

AGOT Tyrion I

His brother's smile curdled like sour milk. "Tyrion, my sweet brother," he said darkly, "there are times when you give me cause to wonder whose side you are on."

Tyrion's mouth was full of bread and fish. He took a swallow of strong black beer to wash it all down, and grinned up wolfishly at Jaime. "Why, Jaime, my sweet brother," he said, "you wound me. You know how much I love my family."

AGOT Eddard IV about Varys

His hand left powder stains on Ned's sleeve, and he smelled as foul and sweet as flowers on a grave.

AGOT Eddard V

Ned took another swallow of milk, trying not to gag on the sweetness of it.

AGOT Catelyn VI

"My brother is undoubtedly arrogant," Tyrion Lannister replied. "My father is the soul of avarice, and my sweet sister Cersei lusts for power with every waking breath. I, however, am innocent as a little lamb. Shall I bleat for you?" He grinned.

AGOT Daenerys VIII

A foul, sweet smell rose from the wound, so thick it almost choked her. The leaves were crusted with blood and pus, Drogo's breast black and glistening with corruption.

ACOK Prologue

Stannis nodded. "The Starks seek to steal half my kingdom, even as the Lannisters have stolen my throne and my own sweet brother the swords and service and strongholds that are mine by rights. They are all usurpers, and they are all my enemies."

ACOK Tyrion IV

"So. Blood for his pride, a chair for his ambition. Gold and land, that goes without saying. A sweet offer . . . yet sweets can be poisoned. 

ACOK Daenerys II

"Sweet smells are sometimes used to cover foul ones."

ACOK Sansa IV

"I see flowering hasn't made you any brighter," said Cersei. "Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same."

ACOK Sansa VI

Sansa lifted the cup to her lips and took a sip. The wine was cloyingly sweet, but very strong.

"You can do better than that," Cersei said. "Drain the cup, Sansa. Your queen commands you."

It almost gagged her, but Sansa emptied the cup, gulping down the thick sweet wine until her head was swimming.

ACOK Daenerys V

"From Meereen I am sold to Qohor, and then to Pentos and the fat man with sweet stink in his hair.

ASOS Catelyn I

There was a smell of death about that room; a heavy smell, sweet and foul, clinging.

ASOS Arya XII

She paddled after the sharp red whisper of cold blood, the sweet cloying stench of death.

 

 

On 7/23/2017 at 8:02 AM, Lord Varys said:

@Lollygag

Are you trying to tell me that Jon Snow is going to be poisonous, suffering from some disease, or rotting alive (the latter could be true, considering that he is going to return from death). Sweetness isn't bad in principle, and certainly not in the context of the flower. I mean, come on, Ned not liking sweet milk is just his preference. It doesn't mean sweets are bad in principle, just as Stannis actually drinking salt water is no hint that all good people/manly man should follow his ridiculous example.

I was going to let this one go, but I happened on it looking at another subject so I decided to add it. GRRM isn't just telling us that Ned doesn't like sweet milk. He doesn't give minor details like that for no reason (at least not until AFFC and ADWD which tend towards filler).

The milk that's so sweet it causes Ned to gag was given to him by Pycelle during Ned's questioning him about Jon Arryn's death. Ned notes that the milk is overly sweet right before Pycelle's two really big lies which is consistent with GRRM's use of "sweet" as cited above. Sometimes sweet is used in a positive manner, but not always and it's meaning can't be just assumed as I demonstrate with the full passage below.

Quote

AGOT Eddard V

As the girl went to fetch their drinks, the Grand Maester knotted his fingers together and rested his hands on his stomach. "The smallfolk say that the last year of summer is always the hottest. It is not so, yet ofttimes it feels that way, does it not? On days like this, I envy you northerners your summer snows." The heavy jeweled chain around the old man's neck chinked softly as he shifted in his seat. "To be sure, King Maekar's summer was hotter than this one, and near as long. There were fools, even in the Citadel, who took that to mean that the Great Summer had come at last, the summer that never ends, but in the seventh year it broke suddenly, and we had a short autumn and a terrible long winter. Still, the heat was fierce while it lasted. Oldtown steamed and sweltered by day and came alive only by night. We would walk in the gardens by the river and argue about the gods. I remember the smells of those nights, my lord—perfume and sweat, melons ripe to bursting, peaches and pomegranates, nightshade and moonbloom. I was a young man then, still forging my chain. The heat did not exhaust me as it does now." Pycelle's eyes were so heavily lidded he looked half-asleep. "My pardons, Lord Eddard. You did not come to hear foolish meanderings of a summer forgotten before your father was born. Forgive an old man his wanderings, if you would. Minds are like swords, I do fear. The old ones go to rust. Ah, and here is our milk." The serving girl placed the tray between them, and Pycelle gave her a smile. "Sweet child." He lifted a cup, tasted, nodded. "Thank you. You may go."

When the girl had taken her leave, Pycelle peered at Ned through pale, rheumy eyes. "Now where were we? Oh, yes. You asked about Lord Arryn …"

"I did." Ned sipped politely at the iced milk. It was pleasantly cold, but oversweet to his taste.

"If truth be told, the Hand had not seemed quite himself for some time," Pycelle said. "We had sat together on council many a year, he and I, and the signs were there to read, but I put them down to the great burdens he had borne so faithfully for so long. Those broad shoulders were weighed down by all the cares of the realm, and more besides. His son was ever sickly, and his lady wife so anxious that she would scarcely let the boy out of her sight. It was enough to weary even a strong man, and the Lord Jon was not young. Small wonder if he seemed melancholy and tired. Or so I thought at the time. Yet now I am less certain." He gave a ponderous shake of his head.

"What can you tell me of his final illness?"

The Grand Maester spread his hands in a gesture of helpless sorrow. "He came to me one day asking after a certain book, as hale and healthy as ever, though it did seem to me that something was troubling him deeply. The next morning he was twisted over in pain, too sick to rise from bed. Maester Colemon thought it was a chill on the stomach. The weather had been hot, and the Hand often iced his wine, which can upset the digestion. When Lord Jon continued to weaken, I went to him myself, but the gods did not grant me the power to save him."

"I have heard that you sent Maester Colemon away."

The Grand Maester's nod was as slow and deliberate as a glacier. "I did, and I fear the Lady Lysa will never forgive me that. Maybe I was wrong, but at the time I thought it best. Maester Colemon is like a son to me, and I yield to none in my esteem for his abilities, but he is young, and the young ofttimes do not comprehend the frailty of an older body. He was purging Lord Arryn with wasting potions and pepper juice, and I feared he might kill him."

"Did Lord Arryn say anything to you during his final hours?"

Pycelle wrinkled his brow. "In the last stage of his fever, the Hand called out the name Robert several times, but whether he was asking for his son or for the king I could not say. Lady Lysa would not permit the boy to enter the sickroom, for fear that he too might be taken ill. The king did come, and he sat beside the bed for hours, talking and joking of times long past in hopes of raising Lord Jon's spirits. His love was fierce to see."

"Was there nothing else? No final words?"

"When I saw that all hope had fled, I gave the Hand the milk of the poppy, so he should not suffer. Just before he closed his eyes for the last time, he whispered something to the king and his lady wife, a blessing for his son. The seed is strong, he said. At the end, his speech was too slurred to comprehend. Death did not come until the next morning, but Lord Jon was at peace after that. He never spoke again."

Ned took another swallow of milk, trying not to gag on the sweetness of it. "Did it seem to you that there was anything unnatural about Lord Arryn's death?"

"Unnatural?" The aged maester's voice was thin as a whisper. "No, I could not say so. Sad, for a certainty. Yet in its own way, death is the most natural thing of all, Lord Eddard. Jon Arryn rests easy now, his burdens lifted at last."

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

 

I was going to let this one go, but I happened on it looking at another subject so I decided to add it. GRRM isn't just telling us that Ned doesn't like sweet milk. He doesn't give minor details like that for no reason (at least not until AFFC and ADWD which tend towards filler).

The milk that's so sweet it causes Ned to gag was given to him by Pycelle during Ned's questioning him about Jon Arryn's death. Ned notes that the milk is overly sweet right before Pycelle's two really big lies which is consistent with GRRM's use of "sweet" as cited above. Sometimes sweet is used in a positive manner, but not always and it's meaning can't be just assumed as I demonstrate with the full passage below.

 

Exactly exactly  :agree: This goes along with how George shows "the dose makes the poison" in the books. Clearly Pycelle was up to no good in his scene with Ned, and the overly sweetness is the red flag clue. 

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24 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Exactly exactly  :agree: This goes along with how George shows "the dose makes the poison" in the books. Clearly Pycelle was up to no good in his scene with Ned, and the overly sweetness is the red flag clue. 

I really like how this passage was handled in regards to the dose makes the poison as you say. If you’ve ever tried to put honey in a cold drink, you know that most it just sits on the bottom because honey doesn’t dissolve into cold liquids well at all. At one point a you get close to the bottom of your drink, you get slammed with the undissolved honey and your drink becomes suddenly crazy sweet.

So Ned started out with milk that just overly sweet but still drinkable. This was right before Pycelle’s lesser lie that Jon had been unwell for some time. Ned keeps sipping on the milk because he likes the coldness of it. He hits the bottom where most of the honey has settled and suddenly it’s gag-inducing. This is right before Pycelle’s big whopper that Jon’s death was natural.

 

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19 hours ago, TRILOGY said:

Main boy and main girl? You're right, never done before. 

*sigh* Did you even read my post? I said "Dany and Jon are equally important to the narrative". That's more than just "main boy and main girl", which usually means the lead protagonist and their love interest or side-kick. Neither Dany nor Jon are, by themselves, the focus of the narrative, and that's not what most fictional romances are composed of. Not in this genre, anyway.

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On 28.7.2017 at 8:10 PM, Lady bonehead said:

Either Jon or Dany, or both, is almost certainly infertile, so a normal marriage with kids ain't gonna happen. In fact after dying and being resurrected I wouldn't be surprised if Jon isn't just infertile but actually impotent. I always had him pegged as a sacrificial hero who dies for the greater good or perhaps becomes a perpetual Undead hero. But perhaps it is Dany who will end up being the sacrificial hero. 

When jon died the body uses all its energy trying to stay alive hence why men shit and ejakulate when they die. If he came back to life i dont know how the incident would have effected his DNA and production of sperm.

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8 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

When jon died the body uses all its energy trying to stay alive hence why men shit and ejakulate when they die. If he came back to life i dont know how the incident would have effected his DNA and production of sperm.

We. Know. Nothing.

For all we know Rezzed!Jon is so fertile he gets girls up in the duff just by looking at them with amorous intent. And snapping his fingers to a jolly tune.

Men ejaculate and both men and women shit and piss themselves when they die because their muscles relax.

 

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