[Spoilers] EP602

[Rockroi]

So a few people reposted my comments about the episode so thanks; awfully kind of you and I am glad you enjoyed my tongue-and-cheek (and salty) rendition of the episode.

But others brought perfectly fair criticisms and observations (which I hope to address) while others gave the knee-jerk reactions we have all come to love and expect here on the boards (they include “If-you-don’t-like-iyt-why-do-you-watch?” and “stop being such a book-purist." 

But I like the discussion so lets work with what people said:

Attitude:

On 5/4/2016 at 6:59 AM, Attitude said:

You do realise that Jon will also come back / won't be dead in the books right. GRRM did the same, and GRRM also did the same with Catelyn, which the show didn't do. 

Well, lets assume he does the EXACT same thing with Jo; I'll hate it there too.  And I never warmed to the Cat stark part BUt at the very least they were more gradual there and that story made a little more sense given the confluence of events that had to happen (including Nymeria).  But I never liked Lady Stoneheart so its a complaint both ways.  In this regard, I am not singling out the show as much as complaining on the general misuse of the "dead/not-dead" trope.

In fact, when I wrote a review on these Boards of DoD, one of my major complaints was that Martin had cheapened death because JUST as we were in denial about Ned's death, we are utterly correct to believe that Jon will be back.  And that's a shame for this story.  

On 5/4/2016 at 6:59 AM, Attitude said:

You pretty much hate everything the writers thought out themselves. I guess that's because you expect perfect recreated book scene's. Now they decide to take the ToJ and recreate it, and you suddenly say the writers that they are only able to copy stuff GRRM already wrote. Can't you see those statements contradict eachother? What do you expect from them? You don't want them to change the story (let's not get into the reason why they change it for now), but you also hate it when they copy GRRM's work. What should they do? Stop the show entirely?

Not true.  Merely because someone sucks at something doesn't mean that every now and then they don't get something right on their own.  Case-in-point, in my review I mentioned that show-Cersei is a better overall character than book-Cersei; same is true for Robert and Viserys (but, sadly, few others).  Now this could be for many many reasons - maybe the book set a low bar; maybe the actor is doing a fantastic job; or maybe the runners nailed their interpretation.  

They are not "recreating" the ToJ scene; they are copying it.  In fact, they line we have seen are among THE MOST MEMORABLE LINES FROM THE BOOK! I don't blame them for copying it; I just think that's an easier job.  When they go off on their own?  Disaster - oh let me count the ways: Jon Snow at Craster's + Bran at Craster's; Jaime and Cersei's "No, Not A Rape" scene; Anything in Dorne; Brienne in the North; Shae-the-Funny-Whore; The re-interpretation of Stannis; etc etc etc. 

I think the show is at its best when it interprets what is there; its at its worst when it has to figure out what should be there.  

On 5/4/2016 at 7:24 AM, RadSam said:

And also, enough with the constant whinging and complaining. If the show is that horrible that you have to complain about every little aspect of it, do us all a favour and just stop watching it.

Oh, I'm ... I'm sorry ... I didn't know that this thread was for "Believers" only; D&D praise-be-their-names... Be Silent All Heretics Who Dare Preach Alternative Views!  BE GONE FROM THIS TEMPLE!!!! 

On 5/4/2016 at 10:35 AM, Greg B said:

Second, it's no surprise that some of the worst show content (Dorne) is based on some of the weakest book content.

Fair point, but even here, the Show's re-interpretation of the books is substantively worse.  Doran Martell is weak in the show; in the books he is portrayed as more mentally able; scheming and a long-term planner with a wide-view of the world.  The story with Marcella, in the show, is "kill-now-think-later"; in the book, while a weak story, its a clearer story, not as silly and not as weakly delivered.  

On 5/4/2016 at 10:35 AM, Greg B said:

Third, it's not D&D or HBO's fault they have to make up stuff

Its not their fault that they have to make it up; no question there.  Martin's pace of writing is what it is (I honestly have to write it that way for fear that I may get edited/banned) and we are likely not getting a book this year (my money- as it has been since 2011 - was that the next book would be released in 2017).  However, they have not exactly made lemonade ot of these lemons.  Stannis' end was probably the worst story-telling I have ever seen; Brienne in the North is not compelling; Ramsey is not as interesting as he was in the books and neither is Theon/Reek; Dorne is not just made up, its been abandoned.  And we are only a few episodes into our brave-new-world.  What stupidity are we in store for?  

On 5/5/2016 at 6:46 AM, ummester said:

Show Cersie is a deeper character than book Cersie

Book Tyrion has far more character depth than show Tyrion

Agree with both these points.  

While I have sort-of liked that the show avoided the "Tysha" storyline from the books, Tyrion in the books is more complex and more nuanced.  Yes, sometimes his "I'm a dwarf" moaning can grate on a reader, but I the book allows for more depth, more viewing and less filler.  The show seems like it feels OBLIGATED to include Tyrion and at no time can they capture what the book have there (though, I readily admit Dinklidge is incredible).   

Cersei is better in the show.  Maybe its Hedley; maybe its her anchoring of that story-line; maybe its the writing.  But she has been a better character since that scene in Bran's sickroom.  I think its a true accomplishment of the show.  

On 5/5/2016 at 8:27 AM, TepidHands said:

My reply to the poster was meant to address his apparent anger about criticism of the show and telling critics: If you don't like it, stop watching.

Yup; exactly.  I knew what you meant.  

 

10 hours ago, RadSam said:

The posts I'm talking about aren't just pointing out flaws and successes. I'm talking about the elitist book fans who expect it to be conveyed book to screen with 100% accuracy. It's not going to happen.

But that has never been my criticism or most others.  We do not demand 100% accuracy.  We just want stuff that makes sense and is true to the narrative.  I sued to call GoT an "alternate reality" from ASoIaF; but that is no longer true.  Now its a bizzaro world where characters do things that don't make sense; deaths are no longer tethered to the story and dumb people do dumb things.  

And if I am an elitist because I ... read books (*sigh... I can't believe literacy is so caste-defining) then, yeah, sorry I have no problem with being an elitist in this regard.  

Edited May 6, 2016 by Rockroi

[Black Crow]

On 5/5/2016 at 10:11 AM, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

 I'm really enjoying the show so far and am beyond excited for ToJ next week.

 

I wouldn't necessarily get too excited. There are three possible outcomes. We could learn the truth of R+L=J although I think this unlikely, its not explicit in the book so there would have to be a major change. Secondly we could learn that Jon's father is Ser Arthur Dayne, who appears to feature very prominently in the trailers. Either is possible, but without delving into the relative merits of either it doesn't feel like the right time. Jon is far far away and has a lot of other stuff on his mind, including perhaps a battle for Winterfell as the season finale. On the whole I'm very much more inclined to think that the vision may largely revolve around Meera's father saving Bran's father from Ser Arthur, which would fit well with Bran's current story-line

[Greg B]

50 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

Fair point, but even here, the Show's re-interpretation of the books is substantively worse.  Doran Martell is weak in the show; in the books he is portrayed as more mentally able; scheming and a long-term planner with a wide-view of the world.  The story with Marcella, in the show, is "kill-now-think-later"; in the book, while a weak story, its a clearer story, not as silly and not as weakly delivered.  

Its not their fault that they have to make it up; no question there.  Martin's pace of writing is what it is (I honestly have to write it that way for fear that I may get edited/banned) and we are likely not getting a book this year (my money- as it has been since 2011 - was that the next book would be released in 2017).  However, they have not exactly made lemonade ot of these lemons.  Stannis' end was probably the worst story-telling I have ever seen; Brienne in the North is not compelling; Ramsey is not as interesting as he was in the books and neither is Theon/Reek; Dorne is not just made up, its been abandoned.  And we are only a few episodes into our brave-new-world.  What stupidity are we in store for? 

D&D should have gone with their first instinct, which was to cut Dorne altogether. In the books, Dorne produces one very good storyline, in Storm (big surprise): the Red Viper comes for vengeance; gets it, kinda. After that, the Dorne content in Feast is indulgent world-building filler that reads like a writer just trying to put words -- any words -- on a page, and Dance is positively cringe-worthy. Even if your view of Doran in the books is accurate (I don't share it), the narrative hardly needed another scheming and long-term planner. It's all bad. The best way for D&D (and Martin) to have improved on it would have been to cut it altogether.

I thought Stannis's end in the show was inevitable and poignant. He's driven through his whole arc by his sense of entitlement (not in the pejorative sense) and proper destiny. He was willing to do pretty much anything, including the murder of his brother (successful) and an innocent boy (unsuccessful) by black magic, and ultimately the burning of his own child, because he clung to that destiny. If you're the savior of the world, how can you do anything wrong in fulfilling that destiny? And in the end, he realizes it was all bullshit. It's a crushing, tragic moment, and it's clear he's relieved -- more than that, he knows it's right, in true Stannis fashion -- when Brienne comes to do her duty. This is great material, and I still expect Martin to make even more of it as his skill and medium allow. I hope I'm not disappointed and that Martin doesn't try to change his story into something different now that Stannis must realize that he isn't, in fact, who he thought he was.

Ramsay is pretty much the same character in the show as he is in the books. He's a psychopath elevated to a station that, thus far, has protected him from the excesses that otherwise wouldn't be tolerated. He can't control or restrain himself, however, and so he's eventually going to be put down like a mad dog, just as his father warned him.

Brienne? Seriously? At least D&D wove her back into the main storyline. Yeah, she still had to spend Season 5 doing nothing much other than waiting for her moment, but this is far better than spending scores of pages on a fruitless quest that did nothing to advance the central narrative. We didn't have to spend much screen time watching her watch that window, and it set up the wonderful scene when she finally gives her oath to Sansa and is accepted, given a purpose again.

Theon's development is almost entirely internal, so of course the books are better suited to this. In the show, this has to be accomplished with acting, and fortunately they have an excellent actor for the role: the expression on his face during that scene from last season that everyone hates, the moment when he finds the courage to become Theon again and save Sansa's life. This is great stuff, despite the demands of different media.

TL;DR First three books? Masterpieces, and D&D were best served when they adapted that story to the screen as seamlessly as possible. Last two books? Fine world-building, as usual from Martin, but terrible storytelling. Despite the challenges this creates for D&D, the show tells Martin's story better than the last two books have. Martin is way more talented, and if he can regain the grip on his story the way D&D have, the books will again be far superior to the show. Until then, for whatever faults it has, the show is just better as a TV show than the last two books have been as books.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Greg B

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

33 minutes ago, Greg B said:

D&D should have gone with their first instinct, which was to cut Dorne altogether. In the books, Dorne produces one very good storyline, in Storm (big surprise): the Red Viper comes for vengeance; gets it, kinda. After that, the Dorne content in Feast is indulgent world-building filler that reads like a writer just trying to put words -- any words -- on a page, and Dance is positively cringe-worthy. Even if your view of Doran in the books is accurate (I don't share it), the narrative hardly needed another scheming and long-term planner. It's all bad. The best way for D&D (and Martin) to have improved on it would have been to cut it altogether.

I thought Stannis's end in the show was inevitable and poignant. He's driven through his whole arc by his sense of entitlement (not in the pejorative sense) and proper destiny. He was willing to do pretty much anything, including the murder of his brother (successful) and an innocent boy (unsuccessful) by black magic, and ultimately the burning of his own child, because he clung to that destiny. If you're the savior of the world, how can you do anything wrong in fulfilling that destiny? And in the end, he realizes it was all bullshit. It's a crushing, tragic moment, and it's clear he's relieved -- more than that, he knows it's right, in true Stannis fashion -- when Brienne comes to do her duty. This is great material, and I still expect Martin to make even more of it as his skill and medium allow. I hope I'm not disappointed and that Martin doesn't try to change his story into something different now that Stannis must realize that he isn't, in fact, who he thought he was.

Ramsay is pretty much the same character in the show as he is in the books. He's a psychopath elevated to a station that, thus far, has protected him from the excesses that otherwise wouldn't be tolerated. He can't control or restrain himself, however, and so he's eventually going to be put down like a mad dog, just as his father warned him.

Brienne? Seriously? At least D&D wove her back into the main storyline. Yeah, she still had to spend Season 5 doing nothing much other than waiting for her moment, but this is far better than spending scores of pages on a fruitless quest that did nothing to advance the central narrative. We didn't have to spend much screen time watching her watch that window, and it set up the wonderful scene when she finally gives her oath to Sansa and is accepted, given a purpose again.

Theon's development is almost entirely internal, so of course the books are better suited to this. In the show, this has to be accomplished with acting, and fortunately they have an excellent actor for the role: the expression on his face during that scene from last season that everyone hates, the moment when he finds the courage to become Theon again and save Sansa's life. This is great stuff, despite the demands of different media.

TL;DR First three books? Masterpieces, and D&D were best served when they adapted that story to the screen as seamlessly as possible. Last two books? Fine world-building, as usual from Martin, but terrible storytelling. Despite the challenges this creates for D&D, the show tells Martin's story better than the last two books have. Martin is way more talented, and if he can regain the grip on his story the way D&D have, the books will again be far superior to the show. Until then, for whatever faults it has, the show is just better as a TV show than the last two books have been as books.

[tormund's beard]

i've never understood the hate for allen as theon (i do understand the hate for theon because he is a dick) but to me the guy as always delivered and when it didn't it felt more like the writers/directors fault than allen's.

[hallam]

I don't see the reason for hating on the Dorne plot so much. It wasn't a huge number of scenes and they had to ice Myrcella sometime. There wasn't space to do the riverlands plot so it was a way to use Jamie and to provide something that contrasted visually with the other pieces.

Sure the Ironborn or the Oldtown plotline were stronger. But we are getting them both this season. GRRM doesn't really give more than tasters for them in the books.

[RadSam]

16 hours ago, Rockroi said:

Oh, I'm ... I'm sorry ... I didn't know that this thread was for "Believers" only; D&D praise-be-their-names... Be Silent All Heretics Who Dare Preach Alternative Views!  BE GONE FROM THIS TEMPLE!!!! 

First off, keep up the sarcasm. It really helps people take you seriously in a discussion/debate/argument.

16 hours ago, Rockroi said:

But that has never been my criticism or most others.  We do not demand 100% accuracy.  We just want stuff that makes sense and is true to the narrative.  I sued to call GoT an "alternate reality" from ASoIaF; but that is no longer true.  Now its a bizzaro world where characters do things that don't make sense; deaths are no longer tethered to the story and dumb people do dumb things.  

And if I am an elitist because I ... read books (*sigh... I can't believe literacy is so caste-defining) then, yeah, sorry I have no problem with being an elitist in this regard.

If that's not the problem, then why complain about silly little things that don't really make a different to the narrative? It may not be you in particular doing this (to be completely honest, I didn't read your post. I started, but it looked like it was going to be another long, whinging post and I just couldn't be bothered.), but seeing people rant and whinge and carry on about this character going here, that character saying this instead of that, that character's hair is a few shades lighter than they'd like, it gets tedious reading that. All I was saying was posts like that should be in the 'rant and rave' or 'criticize without repercussion' threads. That's what they're there for.

[xjlxking]

22 hours ago, Rockroi said:

But that has never been my criticism or most others.  We do not demand 100% accuracy.  We just want stuff that makes sense and is true to the narrative.  I sued to call GoT an "alternate reality" from ASoIaF; but that is no longer true.  Now its a bizzaro world where characters do things that don't make sense; deaths are no longer tethered to the story and dumb people do dumb things.  

And if I am an elitist because I ... read books (*sigh... I can't believe literacy is so caste-defining) then, yeah, sorry I have no problem with being an elitist in this regard.  

When people complain that X character's hair is not as brown as it should be..because it is different then the books, it means those people are looking for 100% accuracy

 

Personally, I think there are people who just hate the show. They hate it for whatever reason they initially started hating it for. Since then they just look for anything to hate on the show. They are sticking to the "the books did it this way, it is always better" argument. This is why you don't invite these people to these types of discussions. They cannot evaluate the show for a individual show. They are not just looking for flaw but difference that have little to no impact. There was a topic that a poster said, there Ned did not use the exact three words that he did in the books, and he "anticipated" it will be bad. I guarantee you, that poster will say the show is bad and deduct a few points based on that. 

 

 

[The Arthur Smith]

12 hours ago, tormund's beard said:

i've never understood the hate for allen as theon (i do understand the hate for theon because he is a dick) but to me the guy as always delivered and when it didn't it felt more like the writers/directors fault than allen's.

Wait... There are actually hates for Alfie Allen? *get a rifle*

[The Arthur Smith]

6 hours ago, RadSam said:

If that's not the problem, then why complain about silly little things that don't really make a different to the narrative? It may not be you in particular doing this (to be completely honest, I didn't read your post. I started, but it looked like it was going to be another long, whinging post and I just couldn't be bothered.), but seeing people rant and whinge and carry on about this character going here, that character saying this instead of that, that character's hair is a few shades lighter than they'd like, it gets tedious reading that. All I was saying was posts like that should be in the 'rant and rave' or 'criticize without repercussion' threads. That's what they're there for.

5 minutes ago, xjlxking said:

When people complain that X character's hair is not as brown as it should be..because it is different then the books, it means those people are looking for 100% accuracy

Seriously, I see people ridicule pettiness that the show not following little things from the book, it's not even funny. Like, "Only Cat" to "Your sister", "Edd, fetch me the block" to "..fetch me the sword". Who cares cause it doesn't contribute much to the overall plot. And lately the pettiness gets more stupid when fans complained that Show!Euron doesn't look like Book!Euron, enough for them to say "D&D fucked up his character."

 

 

[Ruhail]

On May 5, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Black Crow said:

I wouldn't necessarily get too excited. There are three possible outcomes. We could learn the truth of R+L=J although I think this unlikely, its not explicit in the book so there would have to be a major change. Secondly we could learn that Jon's father is Ser Arthur Dayne, who appears to feature very prominently in the trailers. Either is possible, but without delving into the relative merits of either it doesn't feel like the right time. Jon is far far away and has a lot of other stuff on his mind, including perhaps a battle for Winterfell as the season finale. On the whole I'm very much more inclined to think that the vision may largely revolve around Meera's father saving Bran's father from Ser Arthur, which would fit well with Bran's current story-line

 

[xjlxking]

4 hours ago, The Arthur Smith said:

Seriously, I see people ridicule pettiness that the show not following little things from the book, it's not even funny. Like, "Only Cat" to "Your sister", "Edd, fetch me the block" to "..fetch me the sword". Who cares cause it doesn't contribute much to the overall plot. And lately the pettiness gets more stupid when fans complained that Show!Euron doesn't look like Book!Euron, enough for them to say "D&D fucked up his character."

 

 

Yeah. Shockingly, those same people continuously give the show a 1 or 2 rating. Like just reading their justification, "-1 because Lyanna had slightly blonde hair" mean while everything else like Lyanna main features like being a good horse rider, or the setting has no impact of their score

They find enough inconsistencies that are minor to give the show -9 and conclude a 1.

 

This is why with the rise of Internet, books readers have gotten a bad rep. Notice how the jokes about how book readers nip pick that the books did differently. It's not even for the sake of the books doing it better. Who cares if Lyanna had blonde or dark hair. There is no impact whatsoever. 

 

 

[tormund's beard]

1 minute ago, xjlxking said:

Yeah. Shockingly, those same people continuously give the show a 1 or 2 rating. Like just reading their justification, "-1 because Lyanna had slightly blonde hair" mean while everything else like Lyanna main features like being a good horse rider, or the setting has no impact of their score

They find enough inconsistencies that are minor to give the show -9 and conclude a 1.

 

This is why with the rise of Internet, books readers have gotten a bad rep. Notice how the jokes about how book readers nip pick that the books did differently. It's not even for the sake of the books doing it better. Who cares if Lyanna had blonde or dark hair. There is no impact whatsoever. 

 

 

on one hand you got the hair critics on the other you have the show runners making jon's "last words" olly, not ghost or arya or ygritte but olly... you have teleporting sandsnakes you have a jaime that did a 180 and probably will grow his hand back, you have a winterfell where kinslaying (the worst crime in freaking westeros) it's cool you have a "feminist revolution" (actually 4 crazy women) in dorne, you have the magnificient tyrion a freaking WESTEROSI DWARF who is a memeber of daenerys' court walking the streets of meereen like nothing happens when 2 weeks before dany couldn't hold the city with a freaking army and the support of all or almost all the slaves... and thats sucks not because its different from the books, its like they say "look it happened last year they wont remember we can pull whatever shit we want".

[xjlxking]

Jaime getting his hand back? Outrageous! I would never find that believable considering that they live in a world where the dead can be resurrected after being stabbed to death.  I also don't think that will actually happen because you... The books probably won't do that as well

we all agree on Dorne. Believe me, we all agree on it.

 

Yeah, Tyrion walking through the city. Then again, it's clear that the shown has portrayed them harpy as working the dark. The only time they have openly attacked in the day is. Regardless, this is not very realistic in both the books and show

 

I could care less what Jons last words were. Why does it matter? He came back! We all knew he would

[Darksky]

Quality episode. Highly entertaining, which is something Feast and Dance sadly lack.

Another source of entertainment are salty book fanatics hilariously unable to stop watching. Maybe they should try to do that and make their own adaptation if they're so dissatisfied?

[tormund's beard]

6 minutes ago, Darksky said:

Quality episode. Highly entertaining, which is something Feast and Dance sadly lack.

Another source of entertainment are salty book fanatics hilariously unable to stop watching. Maybe they should try to do that and make their own adaptation if they're so dissatisfied?

the thing is it has awesome scenes, but its just that awesome scenes mashed togheter and call them good story telling.

for example i loved the zombie rush last season, it was awesome a totally not in the book, also i hated that hardass wildling chieftain got bsod because she saw some death children it felt really cheap.

[bent branch]

 

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 11:55 AM, Pocketsaviour said:

I hear ya. 

This robs us of Aeron's rhythmic line, "No godless man may sit the Seastone Chair." Nice little piece of iambic pentameter. Always reminded me of "A secret now that only fire can tell" in LotR. 

I'm disappointed we're not getting Aeron, honestly. I know a lot of people find his chapters dull as ditch... err, seawater, but I think they reveal huge amounts about the culture of the Iron Islands. 

I've always rather like Aeron's chapters myself. I find it hilarious that people whine so much about Aeron's chapters, but then say the kings moot was okay though. Aeron only HAS two chapters, one of which is the king's moot. Seriously, how much whining can people do over one chapter.

 

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 1:33 PM, Dornishwoman's Husband said:

- For me, the scene where Euron kills Balon is best scene in this episode, besides the final one. It's almost the same as it was in the books. I look forward to see more of Euron.

I may be remembering incorrectly, but I don't think we see Balon's death on screen in the books. We are only told that he fell from a bridge between two of Pyke's towers and then given this from the Ghost of High Heart (ASOS - Chapter 22):

Quote

"The old gods stir and will not let me sleep," she heard the woman say. "I dreamt a saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings. I dreamt of a roaring river and a woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror. All this is dreamt, and more. Do you have gifts for me, to pay me for my dreams?"

I think it is awesome how well written this is. The reader feels like they've witnessed something that they never actually did.

 

On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 2:46 AM, ummester said:

Nothing wrong with criticism - I'm all for it, including criticism of criticisms.

Why does the forum have to be biased towards either the books or the show? For me there are good and bad aspects in each - the trouble is there aren't any threads that constructively criticize and compare both mediums, like:

Show Cersie is a deeper character than book Cersie

Book Tyrion has far more character depth than show Tyrion

and so on

Further, there never seem to be many threads intelligently discussing why these differences occur, like:

Show Tyrion is probably more shallow than book Tyrion because the actor didn't want to be portrayed riding a pig for laughs and rejecting the advances of a dwarf woman.

Instead, it seems to be either team GRRM or team D&D, when many things are probably beyond either of their control. Which is also extremely ironic, because one of the key messages in the books and show seems to be that picking sides is bad.

I think you are being disingenuous here. There are plenty of criticisms of the show that have nothing to do with the books and everything to do with poor writing on the show, but somehow the show defenders try to push all of the weaknesses of the show onto the books. As an example here is one wound the show delivered to itself.

After Hardhome, Jon and the Wildlings showed up on the wrong side of the Wall. Notice that I said on the wrong side of the wall, that is a book reader's criticism. Literally none of the Unsullied that I know that watch the show had any sense of them being on the wrong side of the Wall. However, their attitude was very different when Thorne stabbed Jon. Why is he stabbing Jon they questioned. Because Jon let the Wildlings through the Wall I answered. "No," they replied. "Thorne let the Wildlings through the Wall."

I, as a book reader, was somewhat annoyed that they had Jon and the Wildlings return on the wrong side of the Wall. Unsullied were more annoyed by Thorne stabbing Jon when he was the one who let the Wildlings pass. And frankly, whether my annoyance with the wrong side of the Wall or the Unsullied's annoyance with Thorne stabbing Jon for something Thorne did has merit or not, it cannot be blamed on the books at all because these are things D & D decided to do.

The show apologists are extremely annoying. They want to throw all of D & D's mistakes on GRRM, but that is wrong. It makes it very difficult to point out all the things they do right. They are the showrunners. Everything about the show reflects back on their judgment. This includes casting, directing, cinematography, costuming, etc. This is because they put together the team that brings this show together. What they are bad at is writing. They tell a story like a child would. This happens, then this happens, then this happens... All with very little between the scenes to explain what the point of this story is. The way they tell a story is more like a slideshow.

[ummester]

I don't see how I am being disingenuous - I readily criticize the books and show. I think they both started going downhill after book 3, season 4 - because neither GRRM or D&D really know what point they are trying to make with this saga - they have each lost their way.

Re the wall, the more you think about it the more ridiculous it is in books and show.

A big wall of ice made to keep out ice mages - really? Oceans (made of water) on either side. Even if the ice mages are like the Dothraki and scared of salt water, there is enough fucking ice north of the wall to build a bridge or causeway around it. The wall makes no sense as a device to keep the Others out of the south - it could only logically have been erected to try and warn humans away from the north and even then there must be simpler fricken' ways.

But you are doing exactly what my post suggested people do - you are picking a side, you are saying the showrunners are doing a worse job with a story that seems to have lost it's way than the author who originally penned it. The show and books have flaws, heaps of them. Those flaws weren't apparent at the start because the writing (in books and show) was engaging enough to overlook them. GRRM and D&D are as good, or as bad, as each other.

Both GRRM and D&D are starting to remind me of Damen Lindelof of JJ Abrahack - they know how to start stories, they know how to throw interesting ideas out there - but they have no fucking idea how to finish them. Can anyone end stories properly any more? Last night I watch some show called Cloverfield St or something - it was ok, engaging and then the ending, WTF happened? Most things nowadays feel like that - the start is written by some type of author or storyteller and the end is written by a 5 year old, in crayon

Edited May 8, 2016 by ummester

[Dornishwoman's Husband]

2 hours ago, bent branch said:

I may be remembering incorrectly, but I don't think we see Balon's death on screen in the books. We are only told that he fell from a bridge between two of Pyke's towers and then given this from the Ghost of High Heart (ASOS - Chapter 22):

It's a small difference. In the books, Euron hired a FM to push Balon from the bridge, and on the show, Euron did it all by himself.

[the silver queen]

Although I enjoyed this episode, I still feel as though the show has lost a lot of it's magic for me. It's not so much the content, as it is the lack of proper pacing and building.. for me, at least. We're getting a lot of really strong actions and events happening, but none of it is really "hitting" me, doesn't feel earned or emotionally impactful. It's all happening too fast with no build-up or tension. I think that's my main complaint about the way the show has been making itself nowadays. The earlier seasons were a lot more slower and melancholic, and when the big events hit, they made you "feel" something. Now, it's like "boom, boom, boom", all these events are happening too fast and right after the other, it seems forced. I think the fact that D&D want to hurry up and finish the series is what is causing this feeling of rush. I can only hope that they want to tie up loose character arcs so they can slow down again and properly focus on the ones they are a fan of, but that's just a hope at this point. 

But to the actual content - My favorite part was Jon's resurrection. I was quite iffy about it while I was watching it. It felt underwhelming, I expected something more from the ritual (kinda more reminiscent of Dany's pyre scene), with more gravity and witnesses to it. I thought this is all wrong, where is the Kiss of Life? I kept expecting that Melisandre would fail in the end, and then hopelessly just deliver the last rites to Jon by giving a kiss (which is I believe what Thoros did, he was just performing the Red Religion's last rites, right?). But I realized I was letting my book reader expectations get in the way of properly feeling the scene. Thinking back on it, I actually think they did it very well and I was wrong. There can't be a moment of big surprise like Dany birthing the dragons, because everyone and their mother knew Jon was going to be resurrected. Once Davos asked Mel about it, I'm sure the Unsullied all knew immediately as well. There's no pretending otherwise, so a big ritual scene is unnecessary. The scene itself was great with tension, it really made the scene last (which was my complaint about the series all over lately above, that they rush everything). I loved how they displayed Mel's doubt and desperation at wanting it to work. I kept wondering, from beginning to end, is he going to wake up right now? I knew he must, but I wasn't sure whether it would happen in this scene or not, which worked to their advantage. We all knew the eventual outcome but they kept us guessing whether this was it or not, perfect tension in my opinion. 

I felt Roose's death was too rushed and obvious. I would have liked a more tense scene, with more meat on it. I only realized afterwards, when reading comments, that the death was a mirror of how Roose killed Robb, I didn't even catch that, probably because it was too rushed, I was more like... "for serious?", the whole time. I'm not sure how GRRM is going to write this, probably would hit me better if one of the Starks killed Roose that way. But that's just fan wish fulfillment I suppose... one thing I was really hoping for was that Roose would kill Ramsay, it seems more in character for him to be aware of Ramsay's intentions and beat him to the punch (in the book, he stated outright that he was aware that Ramsay would kill the child, at least). Like most people, I felt Walda's death was a bit over the top. I think "less is more" would have worked for that situation. Sometimes the best horror is what is left unsaid/unshown, kinda like how in the book, Jeyne's treatment is mostly implied, and that was incredibly disturbing. 

The Iron Isles stuff felt like making checkmarks on the plot. I would have liked a better intro to Euron, I still don't really know what to think of him. 

Sansa/Theon/Brienne - I didn't think much of the scene, just seemed to drive their story forward, same with Arya's short scene, not much to really like or dislike. 

Bran - I really enjoyed the flashback, like most here. Was interesting and I look forward to seeing more impactful flashbacks. I'm curious to hear more from the 3 Eyed Raven about what he wants Bran to actually do. He shared there is a war coming, and apparently is training Bran with his powers, but I'd like more revelations in the future about the Others and what needs to be done. I also really wish there was some suspicion about the Raven's motives, in the book it's a bit shady about what they plan on doing with Bran and friends. The Child of the Forest certainly is creepy enough for it, lol! Oh that's another thing, she looks a lot creepier this time around, kept in shadow. The last time we saw her, it looked like we just stepped into a Zelda game or something. 

Tyrion - The dragons looked amazing, and liked the tension in that scene. I think I had more tension because I was aware of the Quentyn scenario in the books, and was wondering if they would risk frying either Tryion (not likely) or Varys (I was thinking possible, what other use does he really have if he's not involved in an Aegon plot anymore? Seems he's just floating around for no good reason). Felt a bit anti-climactic when the dragons simply turned around and went back to their hidey holes, but perhaps we'll get a good scene of them flying out later on. I hated every line of dialogue in the scene prior when Tyrion was talking with everyone. Very juvenile, not clever or funny at all, even Missandei's and Grey Worm's lines just felt like cardboard.  Inside the cave, the dialogue wasn't that bad. 

 

I know, more complaints that compliments... I still love the show, but it just seems there is such a different direction in pacing and feel than the earlier seasons, it's hard not too compare.