Only death can pay for life (Spoilers)

[W1NT3RF3LL]

9 hours ago, Mr Smith said:

We've been hit over the head with this rule time and time again by both the show and the books, so why was it so blatantly ignored for the most important resurrection of the series? I always assumed Ghost would be sacrificed to resurrect Jon/return Jon's consciousness to his body. I don't know what to think now.

I suppose the other explanation is that Jon's king's blood was the key to his resurrection, but they didn't even mention it. The entire scene, while atmospheric and climactic in its direction, just seemed incredibly lazy in terms of the way it was thought out.

I don't know why because a horse was sacrificed for Khal Drago, that all of a sudden all the way across the world the same rules apply.  Do we even know with what happened in the tent for Khal Drago is the same magic that Mel uses? 

[ummester]

12 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

Jon's hair has a life of its own.

 that's pretty awesome - can't keep a good shampoo model down.

 

Personally, I thought Mel gave life to his body, like Thoros did with Beric but his soul (for lack of a better word) would be incomplete or tarnished like Beric's.... that's where Ghost comes in.

Jon opened his eyes after Ghost looked at him coz Ghost sent his soul back seeing his body was alive again.

[Melisandre's Rubies]

There were several deaths in this episode. Balon's is technically King's blood, at least in as far as Melisandre has considered it viable. Roose, Walda and baby Bolton were killed. Wun Wun killed someone right outside the room, and there was plenty of blood there. Not to mention Jon's blood in and of itself was prominent in both episodes this season. On the ground where he was killed, it soaked into the earth which could hint at the Old Gods connection, but also as Melisandre washed Jon's wounds in her ritual. If Jon's parentage is what most suspect, then you have King's blood right there mixed into his resurrection. However, like other's have mentioned, Thoros did not sacrifice anyone to bring back Beric, and though Beric was changed when this happened it was not an immediate change but one that gradually became more pronounced with each successive resurrection. There is also still the possibility of Jon warging Ghost, which could keep his soul and personality in tact more than has happened with others. We won't know the specifics of these theories until next week at least. 
Also, while "only death can pay for life" has been said by different people, it isn't necessarily completely true. There are many sayings and beliefs that different characters have said that are not true, "there are no direwolves south of the wall", that Wights and Others and Children of the Forest are myths or gone, many of the "it is known" have proved to not be accurate, Melisandre's interpretations of her visions, etc. 

[Clash]

17 minutes ago, ummester said:

 that's pretty awesome - can't keep a good shampoo model down.

 

Personally, I thought Mel gave life to his body, like Thoros did with Beric but his soul (for lack of a better word) would be incomplete or tarnished like Beric's.... that's where Ghost comes in.

Jon opened his eyes after Ghost looked at him coz Ghost sent his soul back seeing his body was alive again.

I don't think Ghost does the 'sending'. We've seen it referred to as 'riding' when Bran takes over Hodor, so the presumption is that the rider has control until they decide to leave. Since Jon has nowhere to go, he can't leave Ghost until his body is re-animated.

[Grayce Hornwood]

9 hours ago, TheBreastplateStretcher said:

I'm pretty sure it has to do with the leaches in the fire from season two or three.. It was assumed that whatever power would go to stannis(the alleged true king). Balon was the forth name in the fire and just died this episode. At least that's what I'm thinking. The leach burning spell was complete with balon dying, and therefore the power goes to the one true king... Jon. Mel's saionce was just the ignition. So Mel's visions are probably more accurate than she realizes(she saw him on the walls of WF and all) and I'm sure her confidence will rise starting next week.

This is what I thought as well. Balon was the only one remaining from the leech spell, and once he died, it provided the necessary power to resurrect Jon.

[ummester]

9 minutes ago, Clash said:

I don't think Ghost does the 'sending'. We've seen it referred to as 'riding' when Bran takes over Hodor, so the presumption is that the rider has control until they decide to leave. Since Jon has nowhere to go, he can't leave Ghost until his body is re-animated.

Yes, right you are. Once the body had life the 'soul' was drawn back.

8 minutes ago, Grayce Hornwood said:

This is what I thought as well. Balon was the only one remaining from the leech spell, and once he died, it provided the necessary power to resurrect Jon.

Good point also - perhaps many things coincided to get Jon back.

Re Mel, I have always thought her visions are real but her interpretation sucks. So now I wonder what she meant when she told Stannis she had seen him sitting on the IT.

[Maid So Fair]

9 minutes ago, ummester said:

Yes, right you are. Once the body had life the 'soul' was drawn back.

Good point also - perhaps many things coincided to get Jon back.

Re Mel, I have always thought her visions are real but her interpretation sucks. So now I wonder what she meant when she told Stannis she had seen him sitting on the IT.

She saw AA and assumed it was Stannis probably. 

[Clash]

38 minutes ago, ummester said:

Yes, right you are. Once the body had life the 'soul' was drawn back.

Good point also - perhaps many things coincided to get Jon back.

Re Mel, I have always thought her visions are real but her interpretation sucks. So now I wonder what she meant when she told Stannis she had seen him sitting on the IT.

Proves Meisandre is human after all. She sees what she wants to believe. We've kind of known this for a while though. Who really believed that Stannis was Azor Ahai reborn? She started with a false premise and when things started to go awry, she lost her faith rather than seeing the need to reset her visions to exclude Stannis.

She might just have found a reason now, though she'll prbably be a lot more careful.

[Mr Smith]

5 hours ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Just out of curiosity, why do you think post-Mummer's-Ford Beric was ever alive? He doesn't eat. He drinks but a little. We don't know if he excretes, but probably not. We don't even know if he breathes.

This immediately suggests comparisons to Coldhands and Robert Strong. Coldhands doesn't eat, excrete, or breathe, and only drinks a little. He has black hands from pooled blood. (Beric doesn't.) He exhibits what seems to be most of his pre-death personality. (I don't think he is being warged by BR. If he was, he wouldn't need to communicate with the ravens.) Robert Strong doesn't eat, drink, excrete, or speak. We don't know about his hands. Coldhands is aware of his own death, and never claims to be alive. Kevan Lannister speculates that Robert Strong may be "not alive".

Beric seems closer to being what we would normally call alive than Coldhands, who is closer than Robert Strong.  Beric>Coldhands>Robert Strong.  But are any of them truly alive? A better question might be, are any of them fully alive? Life and death doesn't seem to be a binary choice in this story - we seem to have a spectrum between life and death.

The assertion "Only death can pay for life" in the books comes from Mel and Mirri Maz Duur, both of whom studied in Asshai. Asshai is the place to go for mysterious knowledge. As for Thoros, he was educated at the Red Temple in Myr. The first time he brought Beric back, he was completely surprised, not only about his own ability, but about the fact that it could happen at all. He apparently never heard any stories at the Temple about Red Priests being able to do this in the past. It seems to be the first known occurrence of the phenomenon. Thoros' ability may have nothing to do with being a Red Priest, but his own inherent power - remember that the Red Temples search for and recruit those with special abilities.

Practical upshot - "Only death can pay for life" may refer to a full resurrection, with a subject that is fully functional - eats, drinks, excretes, breathes, no pooled blood, etc (don't think Jesus - a better example would be Lazarus), whereas any other "return" would be only partial.

ETA - clarity

Excellent post; thanks for your thoughts!

With that in mind, what do you think of the possibility that Jon's own blood (being king's blood) might have played a role in the resurrection?

[StarksNTargs]

12 hours ago, Mr Smith said:

OK this is a fair point, but personally I never quite bought the idea that Beric was brought back six times with no cost, I just assumed the cost was yet to be revealed. Your point about Mel being at her lowest, just as Thoros was is a fair one, but as far as I remember that certainly wasn't established in the book. Truthfully it all seems entirely too easy to me, I need something more than just "they have this power that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't". It's poor writing.

That's this site's number one issue.  The TV show is not the books.  Things in the books do not matter in the least to the show unless the show covered it.  If you guys could separate the two, then you could enjoy both without constantly trying to pick everything apart based off something that happened in the book.   

[ThePope]

I dont know if this has been said anywhere else, but what if the phrase "only death can pay for life is true."  We know that there are examples of resurrections  of other people, but those are not full resurrections (Beric, coldhands, Robert Strong).  

Here is my theory.  We know that Mel is a lacking in her faith right now.  When she leaves the room, she thinks she failed at resurrecting Jon.  What if the words were said, and the spell worked, but the Lord of Light was waiting for her to give a sacrifice to resurrect Jon.  So, after failing to resurrect Jon, she goes to her chambers and takes her own life.  Or, after she fails to bring back Jon, Davos finally gets to confront her for burning Shireen and leading to HIS ONE TRUE King's death.  He follows her to her chambers and kills her for her crimes he believes she has committed.  As soon as she dies, her death pays for Jons life.  

I cant remember if we have seen her in the preview for any future episodes or not, but I could see something like this happening.

Any thoughts?

[Clash]

6 minutes ago, ThePope said:

I dont know if this has been said anywhere else, but what if the phrase "only death can pay for life is true."  We know that there are examples of resurrections  of other people, but those are not full resurrections (Beric, coldhands, Robert Strong). 

Because that phrase only relates to a (partial) resurrection of Khal Drogo. Which did not go well. Thoros didn't need a death to bring Beric back six or seven times.

[ThePope]

7 minutes ago, Clash said:

Because that phrase only relates to a (partial) resurrection of Khal Drogo. Which did not go well. Thoros didn't need a death to bring Beric back six or seven times.

Exactly. I am saying there was no human sacrifice after the words were spoken in those cases.  Maybe by Mel taking her own life after she thought she failed is what is needed to completely bring someone back from the dead.  

[Clash]

16 minutes ago, ThePope said:

Exactly. I am saying there was no human sacrifice after the words were spoken in those cases.  Maybe by Mel taking her own life after she thought she failed is what is needed to completely bring someone back from the dead.  

I don't think she's dead though.

Spoiler

She's been seen on set outdoors during shooting and even tweeted a video of herself walking on a very muddy set in full Mel costume (or at least the red dress - which is all we could see).

 

[Mourneblade]

I am unsure the Mel brought back Jon. This comes from me paying close attention to Mel's Choker. Every time she has performed magic that choker has glowed red. Not this time (Unless it did off screen).

 

The timing is perfect though if someone like Bloodraven did this since there will be a rational, level headed, person in Davos, that will be able to justify the unbelievable, and he will undoubtedly believe Mel did this, and since that possibility was brought up before Jon awoke it will be much easier to swallow for the rest.

 

Had Jon just woke up on his own, well the "Kill it with Fire" mentality would probably have taken hold lol. To believe the unbelievable people need something to anchor that belief to.

[Mourneblade]

10 hours ago, Buffy said:

I have always thought that it was Shireen's life that ultimately paid for Jon Snow's resurrection. As, we see no other repercussions for her sacrifice. 

Other than it did thaw the snow, you make a solid point. I have maintained for years that in the Books Shireen will be sacrificed for Jon, directly or indirectly and that is what breaks Stanis. Show Stanis was hit and miss as to Book Stanis, but in the D&D absolutely butchered him. Book Stanis would never have sacrificed Shireen, IMHO, as she is the closest thing Stanis ever loved.

 

A couple of things, first Television has always had difficulty adapting the nuances of a story, internal monologue, and lengthy onion layered story complexities. AFFC and ADWD had trouble holding the attention of some book readers as well, not me personally I loved them, but some felt it was to complex and the story became too fractured as more and more story arcs were added. For Television to have stayed true to the stories, the budget for each season would run 100+ million at least, and the amount of cast members would be difficult for the average TV goer to keep up with. Not only that it would have needed a non Cable schedule, 20-26 episodes a year to maintain the 1 book per season.

 

Add to that fact that D&D do not have the talent to adapt all that properly, and barely have the talent to condense it into 600 min a season. This show continues to make basic mistakes in continuity, like the bloodhound flat disappearing in the Sansa rescue scene in 6.1, and Gendry is still Rowing. Not only that but they have chosen to keep the Main character Arcs as morally unambiguous as possible. Tyrion has been whitewashed, Jon has been white washed, Dany has been whitewashed. Even batshit Cersei has been whitewashed to a degree, so that the average TV goer does not have to question why they like those characters. Stannis on the other hand, since he was going to die, D&D wrote it so that TV fans actually wanted him to die.

 

One thing I will give credit to D&D for, is how they have manipulated the TV viewers opinion of Mel. Everyone loved Thoros, he was a likable priest. Mel was cruel, Self Righteous, the epitome of the worst kind of zealot. The one who will sacrifice anything or anyone to the greater good. But in 6.1 they gave us a glimpse of something to pity, and every Jon fan was willing to forgive her as long as she brought Jon back. You could see this all over Tumblr. Now that that has happened, I wonder how she is going forward, assuming her visions are accurate, and honestly they have been pretty damn spot on, other than mistaking Stannis for Jon lol.

[Mish Windage]

I think the death for life thing is just what people believe.  Maybe it's part of a shadowbinder formula, but it's not the only "magic" out there.  You'd have to murder someone every time you wanted to have a baby.  Part of the "unreliable narrator" and "prophecy bites on the rare case it turns true" type things.  Only a trueism in shadow magics maybe.  My guess.

[lojzelote]

Why can't he be like Beric? Sure, Beric was supremely fucked up, but that was because he had been reanimated six times. The first time around he might have well passed for a mostly normal guy. This kind of Jon may be damaged, but still be up to fighting in the Long Night.

No need for anybody to die here.

[Mayura]

12 hours ago, Caryn Stark said:

I think you can think that D&D know what is going to happen in "broad strokes." They have said MANY times that this season is NOT going to spoils the next book. They have taken the story where they want to take it. GRRM is not involved in the writing of any episodes at this point. (...)

They have also said Kit Harrington wasn't back on set, Jon was "dead, dead", Mel would not have a part in Jon's resurrection etc. And, unfortunately, GRRM himself wrote on his blog that there would be spoilers in season 6 so... Thinking season 6 won't spoil TWOW is just wishful thinking and a bit delusional imo (with all due respect, of course, but as GRRM himself has written there would be spoilers...)

I agree though, the changes they've made to the story will probably lead to some changes. But the story will be roughly the same. I doubt Jon is resurrected by someone else entirely in the books, although the circumstances might be different.

[Tyrek Lannister]

Maybe Jon's consciousness was contained inside Ghost and was released. Don't know if it was me but that was a first idea that came to my head, Ghost is sleeping, suddenly awakens and so is Jon.