Stannistician Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 13 hours ago, lojzelote said: It's reasonable to expect because that's clearly where Stannis arc is heading. He had already had a hand in killing Renly and only Davos' intervention saved him from burning his innocent nephew. His talk of sacrifice, about if one child's life takes precedence over the entire humankind. The build-up is there, like it or not. Also, D&D confirmed it. Yeah, I know this board hates them, but there is little reason to call them liars. Anyway, people say they had done it because they have bias against Stannis, but if Stannis had been portrayed negatively because they couldn't get over the knowledge that GRRM destined this guy to burn his daughter alive? You've got to think through why Mel and Selyse would sacrifice Shireen, though? Why not one of Gerrick Kingsblood's daughters? Selyse clearly believes that he and his daughters are Free Folk royalty. Why not to sacrifice one of them instead of her only child? Nor am I sure if the spell would resurrect Jon if it was intended for Stannis. How would that even work? Mel and Selyse don't even have Stannis' body with them; even if it was possible to resurrect someone at a long distance, how exactly would they ensure that Stannis won't wake next to an enemy, who will simply kill him again? Well, the poster I was answering to had seemed to be suggesting that. His words had beeen "they don't want it hanging over the boring boy's head". Hard to say what he had meant by it. Though I must say I'd rather have Jon alive than Shireen, without any doubt. But I wouldn't question if Jon's life is worth more than Shireen's since I would view her sacrifice to be unnecessary to begin with. As we have previously seen, it can be done without killing anybody at all.sl As for Jon, he will have hanging over his head the lost lives of the wildlings and the Watchmen, who will slaughter each other in the aftermath of his assassination. The readers can ask if Jon's love for Arya and his attemp to get her away from Ramsay had been worth that bloodshed and the further weakening the defences of the Wall. Again, people keep saying that a price should be paid for resurrecting Jon, but they universally seem to think that Shireen should pay that price instead of Jon. Beric's price was a part of his soul with each time he had been brought back. I don't see why Jon can't be the same. The Beric way is the only truly established form of resurrection. OTOH Mirri's way (and therefore her words on the topic) are highly suspect. First of all, did Drogo really die in the first place? Second, whether he did or did not, Mirri's magic turned him into a piece of vegetable. For those reasons, I wouldn't trust Mirri's input. "Only death can pay for life" sounds nice and all, but it hasn't been proved true by anything we have actually seen. Thoros' way of doing it seems to be much more reliable, even if much less showy. While I am certainly no fan of D&D, I do not think they are liars. Their confirmation of the Shireen burning is pretty vague. I think they were being purposely vague. It is not clear whether they were confirming that George told them that Shireen will be sacrificed, or whether George told them that Shireen will be sacrificed by Stannis. Its a big difference that they left open to interpretation (purposely, I think). I agree that Stannis' arc in books 2 and 3 make him appear to be headed down that road, but I think that there is no way in the seven hells he would go that rout without the influence and assistance of Mel. Towards the end of Storm and throughout Dance, I don't think Mel is fully behind Stannis anymore, nor do I think she has as much influence over him as she did at the beginning of the story. And if she witnesses Jon's resurrection, she certainly won't be supporting Stannis at that point. I agree with your premise in an earlier post that Jon must be resurrected early on in Winds. I also agree that if (and its a big if) Stannis and Shireen reunite, it will have to be later on in Winds. In the books, I think Mel is already leaning away from Stannis and towards Jon by the end of Dance. If Mel witnesses Jon's resurrection, she at that point would be all in for Jon, and would essentially leave Stannis. And since the resurrection would presumable take place near the beginning of Winds, Mel would not be influencing and assisting Stannis by the middle and end of the book. And I have a hard time believing that Stannis would burn Shireen without the influence and aid of Mel. I could be wrong of course. Wouldn't be the first time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 You know what, it's whatever the power/faith of the Others is that resurrected Beric, Stoneheart (books) and Jon. I just realised this - The Great Other is the enemy of R'hllor and it is only when faith in R'hllor was lost that either Thoros or Mel could reanimate a body. Considerring their entire religion hinges on duality, if they had no faith in R'hllor, they must have been letting the power of the Great Other in. Only that power can bring human bodies back to life - whatever it is. The blue eyes are probably just a brought back to life North of the Wall thing,or something. The power that gives dragon's life may still be associated with R'hllor - I'm not sure of that. But it seems quite logigically implied to me now that there is only one deity/power/faith that can raise the human dead and that is the Great Other. I still think Ghost was storing Jon's 'soul' but think it may have been the power of the Great Other and not R'hllor that reanimated his flesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojzelote Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 Seeing is Beric's blood had set his sword aflame, I don't think it makes much sense he'd been powered up by Ice magic. Nope, this is the work of Fire magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 8 hours ago, lojzelote said: Seeing is Beric's blood had set his sword aflame, I don't think it makes much sense he'd been powered up by Ice magic. Nope, this is the work of Fire magic. Perhaps there isn't ice and fire magic - just magic. Like many things in this story, the magic is probably being presented with a certain slight of hand. Beric's sword may have blazed for the same reason Thoros' sword did on the Iron Islands - a simple trick, with the blade covered in something flammable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojzelote Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 Well, why do you speak of Rh'llor and the Great Other then if there is nothing but one kind of magic? It is explicitly said in the books that Beric set the sword aflame with his own blood. I see no reason why anyone would lie about this, As opposed to Melisandre, Thoros doesn't believe he has to prepare Azor Ahai for a battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 4 minutes ago, lojzelote said: Well, why do you speak of Rh'llor and the Great Other then if there is nothing but one kind of magic? Good point, I probably shouldn't. Not with raising human corpses, anyway - I think there is only one type of magic for that. The only thing is the dragons - they are magical, or non natural beings. I'm not sure the magic that raises human dead is the same that created them originally. They may have originally been created by human sacrifice or humans breeding with demons in Asshai or something way back when. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angrivarius Posted May 6, 2016 Share Posted May 6, 2016 Here is an interview with Kit Harington where he talks about the resurrection and how it might change Jon Snow: Spoiler http://www.ew.com/article/2016/05/05/game-thrones-jon-snow-changes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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