Discussing Sansa XXI: Parting ways...

[Woman of War]

9 hours ago, Risto said:

Apparently this joke got the life of its own... I will be more careful next time

Why doesn't have to be the other way around? I mean why not Tyrion accepting and realizing how smart and great Sansa is? And while I would agree that 12-year-old version of Sansa's beliefs about perfect husband should not be considered as rather real, I do believe that she, in many ways like Tyrion, wants a man who will love her. So, she is not clinging to any sort of fantasy (especially TVSansa) with regard to marriages and perfect husbands.

There would be something rather Tolstoy-esque in it. Sansa could end up being Martin's Natalia Rostova or Kitty Scherbatskaya. Which, TBH, can be argued. But, I think that Martin has a bit different relationship with Sansa from the one Tolstoy had with Natalia or Kitty.

Right, Sansa - show Sansa, to the dismay of show haters - is not the clueless little girl she was, she is on her way to be  a strong and clever woman, though maybe with more detours if show timing allows it. This so far does not mean that she will stay among the more or less "good guys and girls" but last episode and her goodbye to Theon would suggest that. And Tyrion would have to realize that she is a remarkable person. After the last episode that would be more likely than Sansa getting the Lady Stoneheart role.

Tolstoy  - big words, why so complicated? Sansa and Tyrion could just end up just like Cat and Ned: marrying  because of political necessities and becoming a team of friends and lovers. The only difference would be that no  father would force them anywhere, it would alone be the free decion of Sansa and Tyrion.

Pure speculation of course, not our story but Martin's and the show will follow. Sansa could of course end as unmarried Lady  of Winterfell - over the dead bodies of Bran and Rickon.  Or happy with Pod or dead or whatever.

[Tianzi]

17 hours ago, Woman of War said:

Tolstoy  - big words, why so complicated? Sansa and Tyrion could just end up just like Cat and Ned: marrying  because of political necessities and becoming a team of friends and lovers. The only difference would be that no  father would force them anywhere, it would alone be the free decion of Sansa and Tyrion.

I'd say that the rhythm of the story indicates that this possibility was dead from the start and only went deader with time. Of course it's still not as disastrous as in the books, when they clearly didn't like each other's personalities and Sansa's reaction to Tyrion was basically a throw up... In the show they at least got along for a short time. But the comparison to Cat and Ned is completely missed in my opinion. For Lord and Lady Stark it was a blank page at the beginning. For Tyrion and Sansa there already is history, and it's intense, and it's bad. Second, in Cat's and Ned's personalities there was a great devotion to duty. It rings somewhere in Sansa, though I'd argue that she does it's as a means to survive and had he marry Tyrion again, she would be bitter and unenthusiastic about it. It doesn't ring in Tyrion, though Saint Tyrion probably can do anything the plot demands. Anyway, even if they pull it off in the show, I'm pretty sure that it won't happen in the books.
 

[Grail King]

On 5/2/2016 at 8:43 AM, Pies are coming said:

Brienne doesn't know Sansa met Sandor Clegane as anything else than Joffrey's guard, so she has no reason to tell her. And it avoids the whole "I've killed Clegane and left your sister alone in the wilderness" angle

I've been himming and hawing on this all night, so I'll just say what I did in another group forum:
Pod, Brienne and everyone else knows about Sandor, what they don't know is how Sandor has protected BOTH girls,Sasna at KL where he has a rep as Joffry's dog and as far as anyone knows KG to Joffery and Cersi's lap dog, only Tyrion knows he saved Sansa from the rapist and a few knows he covered her up when Tyrion stopped Trant's beating her; as far as the arrest of Ned Stark, his sword was drawn ready to protect the King .

On the traitors bridge only he saw and stopped her from pushing the King, saving her life in doing so,Trant or Blount already left the area and Joffry was cluless.

A few may know he saved her from a gang rape in KL but farther from the city less likely so.

When she fainted on her balcony and almost went over he was there to save her.

And no one knows except Sansa that he offered to take her out of KL.

All Pod and the rest at KL know is he deserted his post with some choice words for the King.

Brienne knows none of this because the Hound was long gone before she showed up in KL.

He leaves KL and his reputation is of a deserter or mad dog going on a killing spree ( because his helmet was taken) and kidnapping a girl and wanting to sell her for ransom, neither Hotpie or Gendry or anyone else; including Pod or Brienne knows he was actually protecting her, when they meet, Brienne doesn't know who he is, but Pod does and they both think he's kidnapping her, they don't realize he's protecting her and they come off as Lannister agents and neither the Hound or Arya trust them; so even though Brienne knows it's the Hound she doesn't really know why they stayed together; in her mind Sandor is a killer and if she tells Sansa she may feel it be an unnecessary worry for her, hence the some man was with her and Arya seem to be safe with him.

It's Arya's  version of the devil you know versus the ones you don't, she just leaves him to die, where sis may out right kill her devil.

[Woman of War]

8 hours ago, Tianzi said:

..........she would be bitter and unenthusiastic about it.............

I am not really emotional about this topic but there is hardly any plot construction imaginable where Tyrion and Sansa come together against both their wishes. So if this happens it would at worst be a political decision from both sides but a decision where both fully agree. Certainly they won't if they are disgusted by each other. After all, there  won't be anyone there to drag them to the altar. 

As I said, this is not about you or me liking or disliking the storyline, this has no influence on Martin's decisions. If he chose to ask me Shireen would have a great career ahead of her but Mr Martin won't ask me nor anyone else. So I have to live with Shireen dying because this is a tragedy the plot demands. That is something where am emotional about but hélas.....

We will have to agree to disagree, let's hope these two are still alive when all is said and done.

 

..........

[Tianzi]

3 hours ago, Woman of War said:

As I said, this is not about you or me liking or disliking the storyline, this has no influence on Martin's decisions. If he chose to ask me Shireen would have a great career ahead of her but Mr Martin won't ask me nor anyone else. So I have to live with Shireen dying because this is a tragedy the plot demands. That is something where am emotional about but hélas.....

That's why I raise the argument that she would be bitter and unenthusiastic about it, not that I would be bitter and unenthusiastic about it I just consider this plot unlikely.

And part what makes Martin a great writer is knowing what he writes and what is in the spectrum of logical results of characters and events he created (a virtue that D&D don't have). Of course we readers might guess wrong, but I also don't subscribe to thinking 'this plot of [insert something about Martian invasion] can as well happen and Martin would pull it off'.

[Woman of War]

We won't know until it's written or until it's shown, I'll wait patiently. Characters feel whatever the author wants them to feel.

[OldGimletEye]

8 hours ago, Grail King said:

in her mind Sandor is a killer and if she tells Sansa she may feel it be an unnecessary worry for her, hence the some man was with her and Arya seem to be safe with him.

 

This might be a kinda of sorta reasonable explanation for Brienne's behavior. But here is my problem with it: It's very presumptuous of Brienne to decide what information Sansa gets or does not get. Sansa is now Brienne's liege lady and her boss. Sansa is not Brienne's child.

If Brienne is withholding material information from Sansa on the grounds of protecting Sansa's emotions, then that must be a very temporary thing. Brienne I think has a duty to give Sansa full disclosure about the events surrounding her encounter with Arya.

Most likely D & D believe that we shouldn't see things this way, and we should be fine with Brienne's explanation of events. But, the fact of the matter is that Brienne comes off looking very bad here. I think Brienne has little right to decide what Sansa should know or what she shouldn't know where a family member is concerned and where Brienne has sworn to give good counsel. It seems to me that the very basis of "good counsel" would be timely and accurate information.

[Mladen]

57 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

This might be a kinda of sorta reasonable explanation for Brienne's behavior. But here is my problem with it: It's very presumptuous of Brienne to decide what information Sansa gets or does not get. Sansa is now Brienne's liege lady and her boss. Sansa is not Brienne's child.

That would all be reasonable if, for two facts: (1) Brienne thinks she killed Sandor by throwing him off the cliff and (2) She told Sansa that Arya looked well and unharmed. So, I am not buying the whole "sparing feelings" explanation. It makes no sense based on what she has previously told her.

[Grail King]

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

This might be a kinda of sorta reasonable explanation for Brienne's behavior. But here is my problem with it: It's very presumptuous of Brienne to decide what information Sansa gets or does not get. Sansa is now Brienne's liege lady and her boss. Sansa is not Brienne's child.

If Brienne is withholding material information from Sansa on the grounds of protecting Sansa's emotions, then that must be a very temporary thing. Brienne I think has a duty to give Sansa full disclosure about the events surrounding her encounter with Arya.

Most likely D & D believe that we shouldn't see things this way, and we should be fine with Brienne's explanation of events. But, the fact of the matter is that Brienne comes off looking very bad here. I think Brienne has little right to decide what Sansa should know or what she shouldn't know where a family member is concerned and where Brienne has sworn to give good counsel. It seems to me that the very basis of "good counsel" would be timely and accurate information.

 

28 minutes ago, Risto said:

That would all be reasonable if, for two facts: (1) Brienne thinks she killed Sandor by throwing him off the cliff and (2) She told Sansa that Arya looked well and unharmed. So, I am not buying the whole "sparing feelings" explanation. It makes no sense based on what she has previously told her.

In time I think she will tell her or Sansa will pre-empt it with a task to find Arya, as far as the feelings bit, it's more of Sansa's state of mind a lot of shit just happened to her, logically it may be the better act for the moment, it comes down to what may be best at that moment, the who isn't as important as Arya seemed safe and she didn't looked like she was abused with this person.

[Tianzi]

1 hour ago, Woman of War said:

Characters feel whatever the author wants them to feel.

Yes, and that's where it creatively makes sense

All I'm saying is that Martin is no Stephanie Meyer and I believe he applies logic in his writing process.

 

As for Brienne, I believe she just suffered temporal, plot-convenient dumbness. But she and Sansa have plenty of time to spend together and chat away. Maybe she will even mention not only the Hound, but also killing Stannis.
 

[bb1180]

9 minutes ago, Grail King said:

 

In time I think she will tell her or Sansa will pre-empt it with a task to find Arya, as far as the feelings bit, it's more of Sansa's state of mind a lot of shit just happened to her, logically it may be the better act for the moment, it comes down to what may be best at that moment, the who isn't as important as Arya seemed safe and she didn't looked like she was abused with this person.

I tend to agree with you.  She'll probably tell Sansa all of it eventually,  but at that moment,  the most important thing was for Sansa to learn that Arya may well still be alive.  That she's with Clegane doesn't immediately matter,  as it happened months ago,  and the two are long gone now and out of Sansa's and Brienne's reach.  Given that,  from Brienne's standpoint,  there's no reason to burden Sansa with something disturbing,  given all the traumatic events Sansa has been through. 

[OldGimletEye]

23 minutes ago, Grail King said:

 

In time I think she will tell her or Sansa will pre-empt it with a task to find Arya, as far as the feelings bit, it's more of Sansa's state of mind a lot of shit just happened to her, logically it may be the better act for the moment, it comes down to what may be best at that moment, the who isn't as important as Arya seemed safe and she didn't looked like she was abused with this person.

And if Brienne doesn't correct the record, then it reflects extremely poorly on her or on D & D's writing. Take your pick.

Even if we grant that the "sparing feelings" rationale has some reasonableness to it, it still takes some pretty big assumptions, on Brienne's part, about what Sansa would or would not want to hear, both as Arya's sister and Brienne's new boss.

Most people, I submit, would want to know all the information concerning a missing family member in a very timely fashion.

If it were me, and somebody decided to omit key information about a family member, that was missing, and then take their sweet old time to fix it, I'd give them an epic ass chewing.
 

[Grail King]

5 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

And if Brienne doesn't correct the record, then it reflects extremely poorly on her or on D & D's writing. Take your pick.

Even if we grant that the "sparing feelings" rationale has some reasonableness to it, it still takes some pretty big assumptions, on Brienne's part, about what Sansa would or would not want to hear, both as Arya's sister and Brienne's new boss.

Most people, I submit, would want to know all the information concerning a missing family member in a very timely fashion.

If it were me, and somebody decided to omit key information about a family member, that was missing, and then take their sweet old time to fix it, I'd give them an epic ass chewing.
 

It's not what she may or may not want to hear, it's about what may be best for a child from a grown ups perspective, as Brienne said they all had to make tough choices.

And we have to leave what we want out of it.

[OldGimletEye]

9 minutes ago, Grail King said:

It's not what she may or may not want to hear, it's about what may be best for a child from a grown ups perspective, as Brienne said they all had to make tough choices.

Sansa is Brienne's liege lady and boss. She is not her child. And Sansa has every right not to be treated like a child by Brienne. It's pretty patronizing of Brienne to treat Sansa like a child at this point.

Your analogy here would be like Barristan feeding bullshit to Dany.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

There was a lot Barristan never told Danaerys. For example, he knows how Aerys treated Rhaella and how Dany was likely conceived.

[Grail King]

6 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Sansa is Brienne's liege lady and boss. She is not her child. And Sansa has every right not to be treated like a child by Brienne. It's pretty patronizing by Brienne to treat Sansa like a child at this point.

Your analogy here would be like Barristan feeding bullshit to Dany.

We / YOU are  observers nothing more, she pledge to shield her back and protect her from harm, that is a broad statement, which her decision would and should fall into.

[OldGimletEye]

1 minute ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

There was a lot Barristan never told Danaerys. For example, he knows how Aerys treated Rhaella and how Dany was likely conceived.

And there is an argument he should have. Or at least not misrepresent the situatioin.

[Grail King]

3 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

And there is an argument he should have. Or at least not misrepresent the situatioin.

I think you are missing a point, it's not just they are advisors, they are mentors and a parent also and no matter how people look at it, Sansa and Danni are still children, high ranking yes, but still children and their advisor’s should fit all those rolls until a time comes that both Sansa and Danni don't need that.

[OldGimletEye]

1 hour ago, Grail King said:

We / YOU are  observers nothing more, she pledge to shield her back and protect her from harm, that is a broad statement, which her decision would and should fall into.

This is nonsense. Your trying to interpret "shielding her back" as giving Brienne the authority and right to withold information from Sansa. Sorry, but this is a huge stretch.

Brienne also swore to give Sansa "good counsel". Now how in the hell does Brienne give "good counsel" when she witholds material information from Sansa? The answer is she doesn't.

With regard to what should done about Arya, Sansa is the final decision maker here, not Brienne. And Sansa simply cannot make good decisions if Brienne presumes to withold information from her. Nobody empowered Brienne to make decisions about what should be done about Arya's missing status. Nobody.

But, even if there were not an explicit agreement to give "good counsel" I think its reasonable to infer that the type of relationship that Sansa and Brienne entered into requires a duty of good faith and honest dealing, which, among other things, requires Brienne not to distort information that she would know that Sansa would want.

56 minutes ago, Grail King said:

I think you are missing a point, it's not just they are advisors, they are mentors and a parent also and no matter how people look at it, Sansa and Danni are still children, high ranking yes, but still children and their advisor’s should fit all those rolls until a time comes that both Sansa and Danni don't need that.

I'd only be "missing the point" if I were willing to accept your assertion that Brienne is entitled to treat Sansa as a child.

First, when Sansa and Brienne exchanged their respective duties and covenents there was no agreement between them, whether explicit or implicit, that Brienne was entitled to treat Sansa as a child.

The situation between Dany and Barristan is pretty much the same. Suppose something goes bad in Mereen that Barristan knows about it. Would Barristan be entitled to withold that information from Dany? No he wouldn't. She is the ruler there. He might be entitled to withhold information from Dany about a bad situation in Mereen if he were her regent, but he isn't. At no point, did Barristan presume to be her guardian or her regent.

Secondly, nobody conferred any authority on Brienne to be Sansa's guardian or regent. Sansa certainly did not.

Plus there is the plain old fact that Sansa has been through a lot. And her childhood is pretty much over.

This season Sansa is supposed to play a role in retaking the North back for the Starks. Given what she will be doing, I think it's a stretch to say she is a child at this point or should be treated as such.

Are you saying that Brienne is entitled to make major military and political decisions on Sansa's behalf because Sansa is a "child". Because if you are that's a bit ridiculous.

[Woman of War]

7 hours ago, Tianzi said:

Yes, and that's where it creatively makes sense

All I'm saying is that Martin is no Stephanie Meyer and I believe he applies logic in his writing process.
 

Actually I have claimed that my plot idea has logic on it's side. While you claim it hasn't. Well, everybody believes to be right, needless to say. I argue with story rhythm on a meta level while you argue with the two characters' alleged preferences so far on an in-story level.  There is no point in fighting  since we both believe to have logic on our own side, only on a different arguing level.

We both believe to be right and we won't convince the other, it doesn't matter anyway since Martin writes what he writes. Let's be honest and admit that, whatever Martin will write in the end, you and me as readers or show watchers would not like to see the same story development. You will dislike what I like, sorry to say but very simple.