Discussing Sansa XXI: Parting ways...

[messem]

7 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

But, the fact is that Sansa is now, apparently, head of House Stark......
Bonus:
Sansa is also the highest judicial authority in the North now. Brienne might want to think about that before she does anymore summary executions.

The fact is that House Stark is now, apparently, extinct. Benjen, Bran, Rickon and Arya all presumed dead. Sansa IS Lady Bolton and the highest judicial authority is Ramsay. 

[OldGimletEye]

3 minutes ago, messem said:

The fact is that House Stark is now, apparently, extinct. Benjen, Bran, Rickon and Arya all presumed dead. Sansa IS Lady Bolton and the highest judicial authority is Ramsay. 

Maybe for the people that accept Ramsay Bolton's legitimacy. But, evidently, not everyone does, to include Brienne, it seems. Or is the upcoming Battle of Bastards happening because of "reasons".

[messem]

1 minute ago, OldGimletEye said:

Maybe for the people that accept Ramsay Bolton's legitimacy. But, evidently, not everyone does. Or is the upcoming Battle of Bastards happening because of "reasons".

I'm talking of the status quo. There are always houses which are conspiring against their lieges. Doesn't matter as long they are not succeeding. The Battle of the Bastards is scheduled for S6E9. I haven't seen that yet. If Ramsay wins and Sansa survives my statement stays unaltered. 

[OldGimletEye]

6 minutes ago, messem said:

I'm talking of the status quo. There are always houses which are conspiring against their lieges. Doesn't matter as long they are not succeeding. The Battle of the Bastards is scheduled for S6E9. I haven't seen that yet. If Ramsay wins and Sansa survives my statement stays unaltered. 

And I'm talking issues of political legitimacy. The fact Boltons rule now, doesn't mean their legitimacy is widely accepted in the North. Likely there are still people in the North that believe the Starks are the "rightful rulers". And for those people Ramsay has little authority. And for the Stark loyalist Sansa is likely to be the leader, even if she doesn't make day to day decisions regarding military affairs.

In fact doesn't Roose bring up the fact to Ramsay that Bolton legitimacy is on a very shaky foundation?

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, Woman of War said:

 

LOL, it is valid to conclude that we don't know a thing about what Martin intends to do with Sansa. All options are open to the author since he carefully has arranged Sansa's story the way that virtually no outcome can be excluded.  And there will for sure not be any outcome for Sansa everybody likes, fandom being so divisive. Actually this is something that counts more or less for many characters  who are not outright villains like Ramsay. But us preferring this or that outcome does not make it more likely, in every war both sides have prayed for victory and Martin, the God of the Realm, will smile and do what he wants.

Let's  have a little faith into the author. Whatever Martin's creations, Sansa, Tyrion  or whoever of them, decide - if they have options to decide - they will have well written reasons for their decisions though we might not always relate to those reasons. And the ending Martin has in mind for his characters has been prepared longterm.

There is not much more to say about this. Of course I understand that you want an ending you like for your favorite, obviously. I happen to want the same for my favorites.  

Actually, neither Sansa nor Sandor are my favorite characters in the books. It's not a ship that makes me feel woozy. In fact, this older man with a young girl used to disturb me. I just do a lot of book analysis, and by doing that I cannot but conclude that Sandor-Sansa has the most ground work, textually as well as on a meta-level. GRRM parallels scenes of acquaintance, interactive chemistry and emotional and mental intimacy for several characters in relation to Sansa. Only one character comes out on top, and that's Sandor.  It's also clear that GRRM writes Sansa as attempting to make her own choices and maturing sexually at her own pace and time, regardless what men want of her, including Sandor. We also know that Martin foreshadows stuff and many stuff can be forwarded as very probable to occur. He's not gong to pull a white rabbit out of his hat all of a sudden, although it may appear that way on first read. Practically, there is little against Sandor - with the Mountain dead, Sandor Clegane is the master of House Clegane.

And on other meta-level we have the whole underworldly symbolism incorporated into every Stark POV, with Ned Stark as a type of incarnated Hades, and the scene of the three direwolves making Tyrion pee his pants at WF (amongst the gazillion of underworld meta symbolism). 3 direwolves snapping and lunging for Tyrion, like 3-headed Cerberus scaring a king shitless. http://www.utexas.edu/courses/ancientfilmCC304/lecture12/images/43_cerberus2.jpg The direwolves in that respect are the Stark hellhound, but Sansa loses her direwolf and Robert tells Ned to get her a dog instead. Parallelled to the hellhound theme we have House Clegane, loyal to House Lannister that have lions and sun (symbols of Hercules), and their sigil are 3 dogs. So, House Clegane is another parallel to Cerberus. aGoT starts with Clegane-Cerberus being used by House Lannister-Hercules. But then the Hound abandons the Lannisters and turns his cloak for house Stark-Underworld. And that hellhound is mightily pissed off with Tyrion marrying Sansa. The two never liked each other from the get-go. First Tyrion chapter and he and the Hound despise each other. Neither the direwolves and the Hound (both hellhounds) like Tyrion. Add how the two characters we have so far seen in a trial by combat are Tyrion and Sandor, and you have all the ingredients and impetus for those two men being at opposite sides and somehow battling it out, with Sandor championing Stark and Sansa and Tyrion getting her over his dead body. If we're going CleganeBowl, heck I see Tyrion choosing Robert Strong for his champion against Sandor championing Sansa.

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Darksky said:

I knew that Sansa-Brienne exchange would have Sansan fans riled up. Sansa was shaken up and visibly abused, Brienne didn't know her experience with The Hound was quite a positive one, but she knew his bad rep in Westeros, she didn't want to distress her more at that moment. She knew that just mentioning her little sister was with some man would be worrisome so she quickly added she didn't look like an abused hostage. She didn't mention she killed (for all she knows) that man because then Sansa would worry about Arya being all alone out there. I totally understand why Brienne didn't disclose the details at that point. Sansa was in need of some good news, Brienne wanted her at ease.

And by doing that, Brienne's oath and service to Sansa is worthless.

The only reason they hadn't tell Brienne about Sandor being Sandor and her killing him to Sansa is because on a meta-level Brienne isn't even supposed to be there nor is she supposed to have killed Sandor. They made these things happen because at the time it made creative sense, but they simply want to hand-wave the consequences of those choices away and sidestep the issue.

[OldGimletEye]

4 hours ago, Darksky said:

I knew that Sansa-Brienne exchange would have Sansan fans riled up. Sansa was shaken up and visibly abused, Brienne didn't know her experience with The Hound was quite a positive one, but she knew his bad rep in Westeros, she didn't want to distress her more at that moment. She knew that just mentioning her little sister was with some man would be worrisome so she quickly added she didn't look like an abused hostage. She didn't mention she killed (for all she knows) that man because then Sansa would worry about Arya being all alone out there. I totally understand why Brienne didn't disclose the details at that point. Sansa was in need of some good news, Brienne wanted her at ease.

You do agree though that Sansa has the right to know the complete truth though, right?
You do agree that Brienne must come clean about the real situation, right?
You do agree that Brienne has no right to treat Sansa like a child, right?
You do agree that, where a missing family member is concerned, it is not really up to Brienne to decide what Sansa should or shouldn't know, right?
And you do agree that the longer Brienne foot drags and delays to correct the record, the bigger the problem becomes, right?
And you do agree that if we're going to say that Brienne misled Sansa because of Sansa's trauma then it's a problem if D & D don't deal with that trauma in an honest way, right?
Even if we accept the whole sparing feelings rationale, it's a rationale with a short self life. Very short. Brienne has a duty to come clean about the real situation with Arya.
Also, Brienne had another option here: Just don't mention Arya at all, until Sansa is in a bit better shape. But, what Brienne did instead was give a highly misleading account of what happened. A misleading account that she must correct. And when Brienne does take occassion to correct the record that's probably going to be a shock to Sansa. Because Brienne set the expectation that Arya was basically okay. And then Sansa is going to find out, that no, Arya may not be okay. That will probably be quite devestating to Sansa, since Sansa had thought Arya was okay, given Brienne's misleading account. Had Brienne just not mentioned Arya to begin with, and just waited until Sansa was doing a bit better, and then told her the real sitution regarding Arya, she would have spared Sansa a steep emotional fall resulting from believing that Arya was okay`to well Arya may not be okay.
Correct me if am wrong, but Sansa doesn't know that Brienne had a run in with Arya as that wasn't mentioned during season 5 when Brienne and Sansa met in that tavern.

[kissdbyfire]

49 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

You do agree though that Sansa has the right to know the complete truth though, right?
You do agree that Brienne must come clean about the real situation, right?
You do agree that Brienne has no right to treat Sansa like a child, right?
You do agree that, where a missing family member is concerned, it is not really up to Brienne to decide what Sansa should or shouldn't know, right?
And you do agree that the longer Brienne foot drags and delays to correct the record, the bigger the problem becomes, right?
And you do agree that if we're going to say that Brienne misled Sansa because of Sansa's trauma then it's a problem if D & D don't deal with that trauma in an honest way, right?
Even if we accept the whole sparing feelings rationale, it's a rationale with a short self life. Very short. Brienne has a duty to come clean about the real situation with Arya.
Also, Brienne had another option here: Just don't mention Arya at all, until Sansa is in a bit better shape. But, what Brienne did instead was give a highly misleading account of what happened. A misleading account that she must correct. And when Brienne does take occassion to correct the record that's probably going to be a shock to Sansa. Because Brienne set the expectation that Arya was basically okay. And then Sansa is going to find out, that no, Arya may not be okay. That will probably be quite devestating to Sansa, since Sansa had thought Arya was okay, given Brienne's misleading account. Had Brienne just not mentioned Arya to begin with, and just waited until Sansa was doing a bit better, and then told her the real sitution regarding Arya, she would have spared Sansa a steep emotional fall resulting from believing that Arya was okay`to well Arya may not be okay.
Correct me if am wrong, but Sansa doesn't know that Brienne had a run in with Arya as that wasn't mentioned during season 5 when Brienne and Sansa met in that tavern.

Yes to all, times 100. And now what happens? Either Brienne doesn't tell Sansa the true or complete version, thus making her knightly vows null and void, or she tells Sansa everything but then how does she justify or explain leaving Sandor's name out initially? 

[Grail King]

Are you asking about telling Sansa about Arya during the inn scene in S5?

Answer to that is no; but as far back as 3 or 4 Sansa was told Arya is alive by Balelish on the docks with Roz and Shae.

So whether people like it or not Brienne's update confirms she was still alive and healthy.

Nobody is saying Brienne doesn't have to let Sansa know the whole story, they are saying she is making a call that Sansa may not be ready yet, your demanding she do it yesterday without regards to Sansa's condition or mental state which is a bit in turmoil at the moment.

[Mladen]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes to all, times 100. And now what happens? Either Brienne doesn't tell Sansa the true or complete version, thus making her knightly vows null and void, or she tells Sansa everything but then how does she justify or explain leaving Sandor's name out initially? 

Or this was just writing mistake (not the first one) and shouldn't be analyzed in such detail? After all, "themes are for 8-graders"

[Newstar]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

And that hellhound is mightily pissed off with Tyrion marrying Sansa. The two never liked each other from the get-go. First Tyrion chapter and he and the Hound despise each other. Neither the direwolves and the Hound (both hellhounds) like Tyrion. Add how the two characters we have so far seen in a trial by combat are Tyrion and Sandor, and you have all the ingredients and impetus for those two men being at opposite sides and somehow battling it out, with Sandor championing Stark and Sansa and Tyrion getting her over his dead body. If we're going CleganeBowl, heck I see Tyrion choosing Robert Strong for his champion against Sandor championing Sansa.

Book talk ahead:

LOL, a lot pisses off the Hound. Who gives a shit? He's a third-tier character at best. What matters is how Tyrion and Sansa feel about each other, and they do not hate each other, no matter how much the Hound may froth at the mouth about the injustice of the marriage. Even if the Hound does hate the marriage, he's in no position to do anything about it.

I realize SanSan fans love to speculate about Tyrion and Sansa becoming bitter enemies, especially since TV Tyrion and Sansa being so chummy makes them amusingly nervous, but there's nothing in the text to suggest that Sansa and Tyrion will be going toe to toe. Tyrion has no plan of revenge against Sansa; he's pissed about her being "false" but he has no intention of getting revenge against her. Sansa in TWOW remembers Tyrion as being kinder than Joffrey and specifically remembers him helping her in AFFC. There's no bitter hatred, either of the kind that's motivating Tyrion's blood feud with Cersei, or at all, especially not on Sansa's side. Sansa's pretty clear about the people she does hate in the books, and Tyrion is not one of them. The Hound might be furious at Tyrion, but Sansa doesn't share those sentiments, so again, who gives a shit?

Let's assume for the sake of argument that Sansa hates Tyrion as much as the Hound. A lot of characters hate each other with a passion in ASOIAF and it never amounts to anything; pretty much everyone (aside from Sansa, Pod and a few others) hates Tyrion, and yet he remains alive and ticking. Robb and Catelyn would have happily torn him limb from limb, but they're dead and he's not, and they never got the chance to get revenge against Tyrion. That the Hound hates Tyrion doesn't mean that the Hound will get to work out those feelings; Robb and Catelyn didn't (unless LSH weighs in).

Those who like to dream about some big confrontation between Tyrion and the Hound are giving the Hound far more importance than he has in the books, or in the show for that matter. You know who does have it out for Sansa and who wants her dead, and who's a POV character besides? Cersei. If we're speculating about CleganeBowl, Occam's Razor says she'll be behind it.

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The only reason they hadn't tell Brienne about Sandor being Sandor and her killing him to Sansa is because on a meta-level Brienne isn't even supposed to be there nor is she supposed to have killed Sandor. They made these things happen because at the time it made creative sense, but they simply want to hand-wave the consequences of those choices away and sidestep the issue.

Agreed.

My take is that Brienne's mention of "a man" was done on a meta level to avoid a Sansa/Brienne conversation about the Hound at that particular time. I don't think there's any more to it than that, although I have to laugh at the hatred Brienne is getting for not showing SanSan the proper amount of deference. Someone should have informed Brienne that Sandor and Sansa are Meant 2 B, LOL.

[The Fattest Leech]

4 hours ago, Darksky said:

I knew that Sansa-Brienne exchange would have Sansan fans riled up. Sansa was shaken up and visibly abused, Brienne didn't know her experience with The Hound was quite a positive one, but she knew his bad rep in Westeros, she didn't want to distress her more at that moment. She knew that just mentioning her little sister was with some man would be worrisome so she quickly added she didn't look like an abused hostage. She didn't mention she killed (for all she knows) that man because then Sansa would worry about Arya being all alone out there. I totally understand why Brienne didn't disclose the details at that point. Sansa was in need of some good news, Brienne wanted her at ease.

So in the bare aftermath of a huge battle, dead guys laying around, Brienne decides that it's best to patronize Sansa and vow her loyalty to her by purposely withholding information and lying to her???? Sansa is not child and Brienne knows that. Or she should based on her own life experiences and what she knows of Sansa thus far. I think you are interjecting too many modern world thoughts in this.

[OldGimletEye]

56 minutes ago, Grail King said:

Are you asking about telling Sansa about Arya during the inn scene in S5?

Answer to that is no; but as far back as 3 or 4 Sansa was told Arya is alive by Balelish on the docks with Roz and Shae.

So whether people like it or not Brienne's update confirms she was still alive and healthy.

 

Not exactly. Because Brienne's "update" doesn't quite do that now does it? Because it's not quite accurate is it? If were going to go for the sparing feelings argument, then the point was that Brienne could have waited and then briefed Sansa with the real account of what happened, rather than reversing herself later.

56 minutes ago, Grail King said:

Nobody is saying Brienne doesn't have to let Sansa know the whole story, they are saying she is making a call that Sansa may not be ready yet, your demanding she do it yesterday without regards to Sansa's condition or mental state which is a bit in turmoil at the moment.

I'd say though Brienne is under an obligation to do it quickly. Given the fact Brienne could die because of the nature of the job she is in, she probably needs a sense of urgency about it.

Also, it's going to be kind of odd if Sansa doesn't display an unusual amount of trauma (which, realistically she is entitled to), but Brienne persist in not coming clean.

[Tianzi]

11 minutes ago, Risto said:

Or this was just writing mistake (not the first one) and shouldn't be analyzed in such detail? After all, "themes are for 8-graders"

I'd guess that the writers didn't give this conversation one hundredth of thought people in this thread did
 

[kissdbyfire]

30 minutes ago, Risto said:

Or this was just writing mistake (not the first one) and shouldn't be analyzed in such detail? After all, "themes are for 8-graders"

Yes, that possibility must always be considered when discussing GoT. 

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, Newstar said:

LOL, a lot pisses off the Hound. Who gives a shit? He's a third-tier character at best. What matters is how Tyrion and Sansa feel about each other, and they do not hate each other, no matter how much the Hound may froth at the mouth about the injustice of the marriage. Even if the Hound does hate the marriage, he's in no position to do anything about it.

I realize SanSan fans love to speculate about Tyrion and Sansa becoming bitter enemies, especially since TV Tyrion and Sansa being so chummy makes them amusingly nervous, but there's nothing in the text to suggest that Sansa and Tyrion will be going toe to toe. Tyrion has no plan of revenge against Sansa; he's pissed about her being "false" but he has no intention of getting revenge against her. Sansa in TWOW remembers Tyrion as being kinder than Joffrey and specifically remembers him helping her in AFFC. There's no bitter hatred, either of the kind that's motivating Tyrion's blood feud with Cersei, or at all, especially not on Sansa's side. Sansa's pretty clear about the people she does hate in the books, and Tyrion is not one of them. The Hound might be furious at Tyrion, but Sansa doesn't share those sentiments, so again, who gives a shit? A lot of characters hate each other with a passion in ASOIAF and it never amounts to anything; pretty much everyone (aside from Sansa, Pod and a few others) hates Tyrion, and yet he remains alive and ticking. Robb and Catelyn would have happily torn him limb from limb, but they're dead and he's not. That the Hound hates Tyrion doesn't mean that the Hound will get to work out those feelings; Robb and Catelyn didn't.

Those who like to dream about some big confrontation between Tyrion and the Hound are giving the Hound far more importance than he has in the books, or in the show for that matter. You know who does have it out for Sansa and who wants her dead? Cersei. If we're speculating about CleganeBowl, Occam's Razor says she'll be behind it.

Is your conclusion that Sandor is a third-tier character in the series based on the fact that he is not a POV character? Not even one of the later POV characters? Traditionally with POV writing only the most influential, most important characters get a POV, especially in fantasy. That is if they are a pivoital character in makng the plot move in a certain direction they will become a POV character. It is doubly true when romances are written. Tradtionally the characters pining for each other both get a POV. Everybody else is then a side-character - a meta-messenger passing on info, a redshirt, possibly a villain, .... With romantic plots a non POV character traditionally is the rival of one of the POVs, and while we as readers recognize he has a side-character part to play, we already know he will not last.

If this were a traditionally written POV story, I would follow with the "who cares what Sandor wants and thinks" reasoning. But aSoIaF's POV system is not built up in this way. In fact a lot of non-POV characters have had more and bigger impact on the plot that some of the POV characters. Who is the main character for example when it comes to Areo Hotah and Doran? Or what about Tywin? He doesn't get a POV and yet he's no king. It can't be because he dies, since Ned and Cat also die and had POVs. More, several "third-tier" characters as you call them who have no POV have elborate character background and growth in the books. These are usually characters we see appear through different POVs. That is how GRRM tells us who is important, though they have no POV. For George these characters can be as much a main as non-POV characters, he simply does not wish to make them a POV, because he can convey their desires, aims, goals and feelings sufficiently through other POVs. George recognizes they have desires, goals and wants and will act logically and consistently and therefore can have as much an impact on plot and on the POV characters as POV characters have on each other. They are not cardboard prop characters. We see Sandor through Arya's POV, through Ned's, through Tyrion's, Sansa's and even unknowingly thought Brienne's POV. That is five POV, three of which are main POVs, and with two of those he related intimately and very closely.

Finally, if Sandor does not matter, George could have just keep him dead. That did not happen. We know from the last time Sandor spoke he expressed his continued revulsion for Tyrion as well as his desire for Sansa. We do not need his POV to learn it. Arya's POV was enough. But Sansa does make up this false memory of kissing him, and dreams of him in her marriage bed. So, we do have two people, one a main POV who desire each other.

I do not see the relevancy of Sandor at present being unable to do anything about the marriage of Tyrion and Sansa. There are still 2 books to go.

Where did I say that Sansa and Tyrion will be bitter enemies? The enemies are Sandor and Tyrion, with Tyrion being dismissive of him, and Sandor hating him. But the annullment of the marriage may be something only one of them may want. Sansa may want to have the marriage annulled, but she would require Tyrion's cooperation for it. Would Tyrion be so cooperative and accomodating? I doubt it. That's when you have a "he said-she said" situation, and thus a situation perfectly suitable for a trial by combat. This is not about Sansa and Tyrion wanting each other dead, but one of them having the marriage annulled. Tyrion picks UnGregor his champion, Sandor volunteers for Sansa.

Please do assume anything about my feelings of what is shown on the show. They can have Sansa fall in love with St Tyrion for all I care and Sandor killed again in the Riverlands, and I still wouldn't care, as hardly anything of the show pertains to the books anyhow.

As for Sansa comparing Tyrion favorably to Joffrey... Yes, she does. With such low standards, Shitmouth is a teddy bear.

[Darksky]

Why does Brienne have to tell her who it was exactly (she doesn't)? How does it help or change things? How is it plot-relevant? Who cares, apart from Sansan shippers? Just saying she was with a dude who didn't hurt her is enough. That's not lying. The Hound is a man isn't he? If Sansa actually asked about the identity of said man and Brienne was coy or lied, then there would be a reason to question or take issue with it. But as it stands now it's such a non-issue. Brienne might tell her about The Hound later on, who knows. I swear, ASOIAF fans are the biggest nitpickers  I've ever seen and I've been in quite a few fandoms. It's hardcore, this pettiness.

[Tianzi]

1 minute ago, Darksky said:

Why does Brienne have to tell her who it was exactly (she doesn't)? How does it help or change things? How is it plot-relevant? Who cares, apart from Sansan shippers? Just saying she was with a dude who didn't hurt her is enough. That's not lying. The Hound is a man isn't he? If Sansa actually asked about the identity of said man and Brienne was coy or lied, then there would be a reason to question or take issue with it. But as it stands now it's such a non-issue. Brienne migt tell her about The Hound late on, who knows. I swear, ASOIAF fans are the biggest nitpickers  I've ever seen and I've been in quite a few fandoms. It's hardcore, this pettiness.

The Hound is quite a figure, ex-Kingsguard, deserter, ex-Lannister dog, a dangerous and vicious killer by reputation, and Sansa spent some time with him in KL (Brienne doesn't know her opinion about him). Not a babysitter you would want for your little sister, and gods know what he is planning to do with her. For all Brienne knows, he might have been luring Arya with candies to a nearest Lannister camp. It's an important information for Sansa however you look at it, and I really don't understand repeating SanSan motif here, as Brienne doesn't even know about that aspect.

PS. Show fans whining about book fans are in no way less annoying than book fans whining about show fans.

[HairGrowsBack]

4 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

The Hound is quite a figure, ex-Kingsguard, deserter, ex-Lannister dog, a dangerous and vicious killer by reputation, and Sansa spent some time with him in KL (Brienne doesn't know her opinion about him). Not a babysitter you would want for your little sister, and gods know what he is planning to do with her. For all Brienne knows, he might have been luring Arya with candies to a nearest Lannister camp. It's an important information for Sansa however you look at it, and I really don't understand repeating SanSan motif here, as Brienne doesn't even know about that aspect.

 

That argument alone should be enough. Not even counting his reputation, it just isn't realistic to mention someone as well known as The Hound as "a man".

It's as if I saw my friend with Hilary Clinton at a café, and my friend told me she had a drink with "a woman."

[Tianzi]

3 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

It's as if I saw my friend with Hilary Clinton at a café, and my friend told me she had a drink with "a woman."

'A woman' is getting into petty specifics. Just say 'a human'. Or 'a living creature', who doesn't like a drink with their parrot. What matters is the taste of coffee.