Discussing Sansa XXI: Parting ways...

[LongRider]

2 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

That argument alone should be enough. Not even counting his reputation, it just isn't realistic to mention someone as well known as The Hound as "a man".

It's as if I saw my friend with Hilary Clinton at a café, and my friend told me she had a drink with "a woman."

Not only that, but where was Sansa's curiosity about her sister?  A few questions like 'What man?  Where? When? Where did Arya go?  Why didn't you stay with her?' and others. Just like finding out Bran and Rickon are alive, no curiosity, no interest, no expression of family ties.  Nothing IS nothing.

[OldGimletEye]

3 hours ago, Darksky said:

Why does Brienne have to tell her who it was exactly (she doesn't)? How does it help or change things? How is it plot-relevant? Who cares, apart from Sansan shippers? Just saying she was with a dude who didn't hurt her is enough. That's not lying. The Hound is a man isn't he? If Sansa actually asked about the identity of said man and Brienne was coy or lied, then there would be a reason to question or take issue with it. But as it stands now it's such a non-issue. Brienne might tell her about The Hound later on, who knows. I swear, ASOIAF fans are the biggest nitpickers  I've ever seen and I've been in quite a few fandoms. It's hardcore, this pettiness.

What a dumb line of argument.

Put yourself in a situation similar to Sansa Stark. You have a family member, loved one, or friend that is missing. I think you'd want to know every detail about the last time somebody came into contact with them. And I doubt you'd appreciate that person leaving out details because they made the subjective determination about what is and what is not a relevant fact.

Brienne might have made a subjective determination that the fact that Arya was with the Hound was not relevant. But, she cannot be sure that Sansa would make the same determination about that fact.

And if Brienne is going to give an opinion about the state of things, then really she should share the facts that form the basis of that opinion. She should not presume that Sansa would come to the same conclusion. People can and do come to different conclusions on the same set facts.

If somebody in Brienne's shoes isn't sure whether a fact is or is not relevant to somebody like Sansa Stark, then surely she should err on the side of disclosure because she has no right to make assumptions about what somebody like Sansa might think is material to the situation.

And yes Brienne did misrepresent the situation. She made it sound like that Arya was safe with "A-Man" and did not disclose that "A-Man" might have been seriously injured and incapable of protecting Arya.

 

 

[LongRider]

16 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

And yes Brienne did misrepresent the situation. She made it sound like that Arya was safe with "A-Man" and did not disclose that "A-Man" might have been seriously injured and incapable of protecting Arya.

 

'A man' Bri had an extended sword fight with, bit off his ear and threw him over a cliff.  One she didn't bother to find out if he was dead or alive after that.  And oh yeah, she couldn't find Arya after that because Arya didn't want to be found. Plus, she had told Bri from the first she didn't want to go with her and wanted to stay with the Hound.

But hey, that's a lot of silly dialog, so just 'a man' will do for now.  ==eyeroll==  yeah, makes perfect sense.

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[The Fattest Leech]

26 minutes ago, LongRider said:

'A man' Bri had an extended sword fight with, bit off his ear and threw him over a cliff.  One she didn't bother to find out if he was dead or alive after that.  And oh yeah, she couldn't find Arya after that because Arya didn't want to be found. Plus, she had told Bri from the first she didn't want to go with her and wanted to stay with the Hound.

But hey, that's a lot of silly dialog, so just 'a man' will do for now.  ==eyeroll==  yeah, makes perfect sense.

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not

Perfect sense.

And not to mention that purposely withholding this amount of information from someone you are pledging your loyalty to is out-right lying and contradictory to the honor that drives your personality and mission.

But let's just brush all that under the carpet.

[Newstar]

 

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Is your conclusion that Sandor is a third-tier character in the series based on the fact that he is not a POV character?

First tier (core POVs: GRRM's core characters from the 1993 outline, plus Sansa): Tyrion, Bran, Dany, Jon, Arya, and Sansa

Second tier (POVs with big storylines who aren't one of the core characters): Theon, Asha, Jaime, Cersei, Brienne, Arianne, etc.

Third tier and beyond: everyone else

The Hound has never had a POV chapter (and is unlikely to start). He's third-tier...at best. Fourth-tier might be more appropriate, considering he's been out of the picture for two books except as a blink-and-you'll-miss-it Easter Egg moment.

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Finally, if Sandor does not matter, George could have just keep him dead.

The Hound does matter, but it is indisputable that he matters far less than Sansa and far, far less than Tyrion, and that just because he wants something doesn't mean that he'll get it. The Hound doesn't get a cookie for hating Tyrion and wanting him dead; he'll have to get in line behind everyone else who wants the same and who is far better positioned to make that happen.

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That's when you have a "he said-she said" situation, and thus a situation perfectly suitable for a trial by combat.

LOL, no. Trials by combat are not about he said/she said in the context of someone wanting something that the other person doesn't want to give them; they're about guilt vs. innocence, which doesn't apply in a "civil" matter like a squabble over an annulment. There's no divorce court by combat in Westeros. There is an annulment mechanism, which does not include trial by combat.

To bring it back to the show, the half-assed way the marriage being null and void was dealt with in the show suggests to me that the marriage will never be properly annulled in the books, either. I suspect Sansa's going to die in both the show and the books, rendering the issue academic (and giving Tyrion yet another reason to feel sorry for himself, not that he needed the help). There's no need to bother with the status of the marriage if Sansa's dead, after all. With the promise of Jon and Sansa teaming up against Ramsay this year, hopefully D&D will give Sansa a win and Winterfell, and maybe even a romantic moment with the Hound if he comes back to the show, before she gets the boot, but get the boot she will, I expect.

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As for Sansa comparing Tyrion favorably to Joffrey... Yes, she does. With such low standards, Shitmouth is a teddy bear.

The point is that if she did hate him she wouldn't be inclined to think charitably of Tyrion at all or to give him points in her head for things he did do for her.

[Woman of War]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually, neither Sansa nor Sandor are my favorite characters in the books. It's not a ship that makes me feel woozy.

I agree with your first sentence. And no ship will ever make me feel woozy, LOL.

Tyrion borrowing the Mountainmonster from Cersei as his champion??? How should that happen? Cersei won't be so generous. And why should Tyrion ever fight against Sansa? Not very plausible. Can it be that you dislike Tyrion a  little bit?

But what is funny, given that we have the same informations, is that I would predict a totally different development of the Tyrion - Sandor relationship. I would predict, after Martin has built up their strife and dislike, that these two will grudgingly work together some day. Sandor's dislike of Tyrion has a totally irrational, we would call it eugenic, component when he said "that those who cannot defend themselves should  die and get out of the way of those who can (quote Sandor, ACOK ) ", talking about handicapped Tyrion and Lollys. If Sandor takes a turn towards morality, as he has begun when he cared for Arya, this approach  would certainly be something to atone for. The approach of someone who was powerless and weak as child and tries to make himself better now  by demeaning those seen as weaker, like we know it from all those loud mouthed bullies.  Martin will give Sandor space to make up for it by caring for two young girls, Arya and Sansa - and by accepting a "cripple" as  ally.

The second hint  is that Tyrion has clearly seen the nature of Sandor's terror at Blackwater, has realized that Sandor was no coward but had a deeply rooted fear of fire he was unable to control and that his insubordination was only camouflage for his terror. 

So Sandor's real test will not be his brother, he is dead anyway,  it will have to do with fire. This means that Sandor might not enter that notorious "Cleganebowl" but have a bigger task to do. This task  might easily have to do with fire, wights, Others, dragons etc., he needs not even be a sword fighting warrior for it, being brave would be enough. And it might have to do with Tyrion. 

But of course I am just as happily fabricating fanfiction clad as serious analysis as you are since we both know nothing.

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, Woman of War said:

I agree with your first sentence. And no ship will ever make me feel woozy, LOL.

But what is funny, given that we have the same informations, is that I would predict a totally different development of the Tyrion - Sandor relationship. I would predict, after Martin has built up their strife and dislike, that these two will grudgingly work together some day. Sandor's dislike of Tyrion has a totally irrational, we would call it eugenic, component when he said "that those who cannot defend themselves should  die and get out of the way of those who can (quote Sandor, ACOK ) ", talking about handicapped Tyrion and Lollys. If Sandor takes a turn towards morality, as he has begun when he cared for Arya, this approach  would certainly be something to atone for. The approach of someone who was powerless and weak as child and tries to make himself better now  by demeaning those seen as weaker, like we know it from all those loud mouthed bullies.  Martin will give Sandor space to make up for it by caring for two young girls, Arya and Sansa - and by accepting a "cripple" as  ally.

The second hint  is that Tyrion has clearly seen the nature of Sandor's terror at Blackwater, has realized that Sandor was no coward but had a deeply rooted fear of fire he was unable to control and that his insubordination was only camouflage for his terror. 

So Sandor's real test will not be his brother, he is dead anyway,  it will have to do with fire. This means that Sandor might not enter that notorious "Cleganebowl" but have a bigger task to do. This task  might easily have to do with fire, wights, Others, dragons etc., he needs not even be a sword fighting warrior for it, being brave would be enough. And it might have to do with Tyrion. 

But of course I am just as happily fabricating fanfiction clad as serious analysis as you are since we both know nothing.

I don't think Sandor dislikes Tyrion because he's a dwarf or anything. I think he dislikes Tyrion for being a hypocrite, making himself out to be the good guy, but actually supporting the dishonorable, for being a pretender and false. Tyrion does not truly care, only to come off looking good. Sandor knows it, and he'd ratther be the dog of a shit like Joffrey who makes no bones about being a shit, than a guy who's as vindictive and petty and violent as Joffrey, but secretly. And you forget that Sandor has even more reason to hate Tyrion, now that he's officially married to Sansa. 

[Newstar]

17 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And you forget that Sandor has even more reason to hate Tyrion, now that he's officially married to Sansa. 

I think Book Sandor's current hatred of Tyrion is founded primarily on the belief that he raped Sansa multiple times, which is a reaction I would expect anyone who cared about Sansa in any capacity to have (that Book Jon doesn't appear to have had this reaction to the news of Sansa's marriage threw me a bit, to be honest).

I never got the sense that TV Sandor loathed Tyrion for anything specific beyond Tyrion being obnoxious (which, well, fair enough). Tyrion has the sort of personality Sandor would find extremely irritating in of itself. TV Tyrion does state in 2x01 that Sandor doesn't like him, but nothing ever came of that. I don't even think that TV Sandor knows about TV Tyrion's marriage to Sansa, does he? So if there is some big showdown coming up between Tyrion and Sandor if the Hound does come back, the show writers haven't really done much to set it up.

[Tianzi]

46 minutes ago, Newstar said:

I think Book Sandor's current hatred of Tyrion is founded primarily on the belief that he raped Sansa multiple times, which is a reaction I would expect anyone who cared about Sansa in any capacity to have (that Book Jon doesn't appear to have had this reaction to the news of Sansa's marriage threw me a bit, to be honest).

I get a feeling that he hated him before as well, probably for being obnoxious, maybe in part for being a dwarf, and maybe indeed partly because of Tyrion's belief to be better than he was (though I'm far from comparing him to Joff). He did seem to fall in the crowd chanting 'twisted little demon monkey' in a general way and I think that it's this, along with Tyrion's fame for whoring, that made the Hound (unfairly) believe that he's a monster who would make Sansa's life hell, rather than thinking Tyrion is scum for marrying Sansa.

(How comes that any Sansa conversation eventually morphs into the Hound conversation?)
 

[Mladen]

57 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

(How comes that any Sansa conversation eventually morphs into the Hound conversation?)

In this corner of westeros.org, debate about Sansa morphs into whatever current issue is. It really depends on the episode. This one, with that omission/mistake/whatever people it was, think that touched on Sandor, so it was rather inevitable to evade rehashing that dynamics all over again.

 

[sweetsunray]

7 minutes ago, Newstar said:

I think Book Sandor's current hatred of Tyrion is founded primarily on the belief that he raped Sansa multiple times.

I never got the sense that TV Sandor loathed Tyrion for anything specific beyond Tyrion being obnoxious (which, well, fair enough). Tyrion has the sort of personality Sandor would find extremely irritating in of itself. TV Tyrion does state in 2x01 that Sandor doesn't like him, but nothing ever came of that. I don't even think that TV Sandor knows about TV Tyrion's marriage to Sansa, does he?

Sandor wants Sansa for himself, and Tyrion married to Sansa will only make Sandor hate Tyrion more, raping or no raping.

Went through every Sandor-Arya scene in S4, and no he's not told. He only knows Joffrey's dead. Didn't hear it from Freys either. Of course he might have learned about it off-screen later, or still learn. But in this show, characters don't know what they know in the books and vice versa. Don't care all that much.

 

[SamuelVimes]

On 5/7/2016 at 10:13 AM, Tianzi said:

As for Brienne, I believe she just suffered temporal, plot-convenient dumbness. 

From what I'm seeing, it's quite contagious--swept through Dorne like a plague, certainly. 

[SamuelVimes]

On 5/8/2016 at 0:36 PM, Newstar said:

I think Book Sandor's current hatred of Tyrion is founded primarily on the belief that he raped Sansa multiple times, which is a reaction I would expect anyone who cared about Sansa in any capacity to have (that Book Jon doesn't appear to have had this reaction to the news of Sansa's marriage threw me a bit, to be honest).

Not to derail the careening Sansa-Hound debate to talk about Jon  but in the books it's fairly clear that Sansa is the one who most shares her mother's view of Jon--always correcting anyone who calls him her brother that he's her half-brother, etc. They're definitely the least close of all the family. Also, Jon's met Tyrion and knows that he's a good guy at heart and so he will likely doubt the truth of any tales of rape. Those two things together are why Jon doesn't have a huge reaction to Sansa and Tyrion being married. If it were Arya? Totally different story. 

That's also why I'm intrigued by the fact that of all the siblings, it's Sansa and Jon who are finally meeting up. Their relationship has never been close, she's tended to see him as beneath her, and now she's running to him for help. 

[Mladen]

3 minutes ago, SamuelVimes said:

Not to derail the careening Sansa-Hound debate to talk about Jon  but in the books it's fairly clear that Sansa is the one who most shares her mother's view of Jon--always correcting anyone who calls him her brother that he's her half-brother, etc. They're definitely the least close of all the family. Also, Jon's met Tyrion and knows that he's a good guy at heart and so he will likely doubt the truth of any tales of rape. Those two things together are why Jon doesn't have a huge reaction to Sansa and Tyrion being married. If it were Arya? Totally different story. 

That's also why I'm intrigued by the fact that of all the siblings, it's Sansa and Jon who are finally meeting up. Their relationship has never been close, she's tended to see him as beneath her, and now she's running to him for help. 

So, basically you want to tell us that Jon doesn't care whether Tyrion raped Sansa because well, it is Sansa in question and not Arya? What a low opinion you have on him

The thing about Sansa and Jon is that most people exaggerate when talking about that relationship. Throughout the books, we have seen Sansa caring very deeply about Jon. When she really sees what Night Watch is, she feels bad for Jon (a sentiment she shared with Jon). Her idea of bastardy is to be brave and probably the only bastard that influenced her was Jon. When these two remember each other, there is never bitterness or resentment so I don't see Sansa sharing her mother's views on Jon. Her acknowledging the fact he is her half-brother and not being too close with him is a long way from the dislike Catelyn felt.

[Tianzi]

7 hours ago, Risto said:

So, basically you want to tell us that Jon doesn't care whether Tyrion raped Sansa because well, it is Sansa in question and not Arya? What a low opinion you have on him

I took it that Jon wouldn't believe in Tyrion being a rapist (generous assumption in the books), but would be hurt by Arya being married....probably out of some subconscious jealousy.

[Mladen]

2 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

I took it that Jon wouldn't believe in Tyrion being a rapist (generous assumption in the books), but would be hurt by Arya being married....probably out of some subconscious jealousy.

Yeah, I am not buying that... We know how Jon reacted when he heard Arya is married to Ramsay and his main concern was her safety, not some subconscious jealousy. I do think if Sansa was in that position he would have done the same.The difference in reaction is due to the timing and the fact that in Sansa's case, he can't do anything, unlike in fArya's.

[Tianzi]

12 minutes ago, Risto said:

We know how Jon reacted when he heard Arya is married to Ramsay and his main concern was her safety, not some subconscious jealousy.

Well, it was Ramsay. I don't remember how much Jon knew about him, but if he knew anything, it was enough to worry about Arya's safety.

I agree that the distance and his faith in Tyrion being a good person played a role but always thought that his (lack of) reaction to Sansa's marriage was cold. He knew her, he knew her dreams, he knew she had to be crushed by having to marry someone like Tyrion. Of course he couldn't do anything about it, but he really could give her a minute of pity.

[Mladen]

45 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

I agree that the distance and his faith in Tyrion being a good person played a role but always thought that his (lack of) reaction to Sansa's marriage was cold. He knew her, he knew her dreams, he knew she had to be crushed by having to marry someone like Tyrion. Of course he couldn't do anything about it, but he really could give her a minute of pity.

It is not that his lack of reaction speaks a lot, when you have in mind that he also doesn't spend much time pitying Robb and Bran and Rickon. Essentially, when it comes to Jon, Martin tends to give us offscreen findings. He really doesn't spend much time pitying Starks. That doesn't mean he is not mourning the loss of his family.

[SamuelVimes]

13 hours ago, Risto said:

So, basically you want to tell us that Jon doesn't care whether Tyrion raped Sansa because well, it is Sansa in question and not Arya? What a low opinion you have on him \

4 hours ago, Risto said:

It is not that his lack of reaction speaks a lot, when you have in mind that he also doesn't spend much time pitying Robb and Bran and Rickon. Essentially, when it comes to Jon, Martin tends to give us offscreen findings. He really doesn't spend much time pitying Starks. That doesn't mean he is not mourning the loss of his family.

I think we agree more than we disagree. I'm not saying Jon doesn't care whether Sansa has been raped; I think he puts on a brave face about everything that concerns his family, and tries really hard not to react. Arya is an exception in that I think it'd be hardest for him to maintain that brave face. 

Lemme 'splain. Jon's often trying not to react when things happen involving his blood relatives, as if to prove to himself that he really does believe that only the Night's Watch are his brothers now. We get so many instances of him trying to remind himself of this, that only the Watch are his family--it's his go-to response pretty much every time he gets news about the Starks. 

Also, it's not like he can do anything about things happening in King's Landing. Aside from forcing himself to act like he no longer really cares about the Starks, Jon also tends to force himself not to care about things he couldn't change even if he wanted to. He isn't ever wholly successful (if he were, he'd be a far less interesting character), and sometimes he's completely unsuccessful (like when he tries, very early on, to leave the Wall & help Robb -- and one of the arguments that brings him back is that his one sword isn't going to make the difference between victory and defeat). When he's faced with something he maybe can change and that involves the closest personal bond he still has to his family, well... then his walls maybe break down (no pun intended). 

So, Arya marrying Ramsay is different largely because it is in the North and Jon might be actually able to intervene, and it's the person who he felt closest to before he joined the Watch. Those two things, I'd say, are what matter. Maybe some part of it is also because he knows Ramsay is a horrible person--he knows for sure that Arya wouldn't have agreed on her own--but I really think that if the same marriage were happening in Dorne, he'd feel awful but try to pretend, even to himself, that he wasn't even thinking about it. (He'd still feel seven flavors of awful about it, but he would try to pretend, even to himself, that he didn't feel that way.) 

So, Sansa getting married in King's Landing? Nope. If, say, he heard about something happening to Rickon in Highgarden? Much the same. Bran beyond the Wall? Harder to say, because it's an area he'd be able to get to. Arya in Winterfell? There ya go. 

[SamuelVimes]

Show-Jon is much the same; Ramsay having either Sansa or Rickon in his control in the North makes it far more tempting for Jon to try and intervene than Cersei having anyone in King's Landing.