[Spoilers All] Boltons Misled - Karstarks and the GNC?

[Anarcho]

23 minutes ago, mattnj81 said:

I'm thinking the gift is a fake Rickon. Ramsey flays him, outraging the North but the Umbers keep the real Rickon safe. Either that or fake Arya. I'm just rooting for the Umbers to be pro Stark, there's no reason for them to support Boltons unless they have hostages like in the books. They lost men at the RW. 

I suppose if there are distinct branches of the family there might be some incentive, as with Arnolf Karstark trying to push his branch over Harrion's. But I think it's been confirmed that this Lord Umber is the Smalljon, so that doesn't apply here.

[Stangler]

The show has done very little talking about the politics of the north but they are clearly trying to set up the Karstarks as an important ally of the Boltons and the other minor lords being loyal to the Starks. (From previews it looks like Sansa and Davos will go off and accomplish that task)  

This leaves the Umbers and Manderlys as the pieces with questionable loyalties. I think it is very likely that they have at least one of those families play the Boltons and betray them at the final battle. 

[Abdallah]

32 minutes ago, mattnj81 said:

I'm thinking the gift is a fake Rickon. Ramsey flays him, outraging the North but the Umbers keep the real Rickon safe. Either that or fake Arya. I'm just rooting for the Umbers to be pro Stark, there's no reason for them to support Boltons unless they have hostages like in the books. They lost men at the RW. 

I'm worried that it might be Theon, but it could be a fake. 

[mattnj81]

47 minutes ago, Anarcho said:

With the obvious exception of Bolton and Stark, I think the Greatjon and Rickard Karstark are the only Northern lords to have physically appeared. The Glovers have been mentioned a few times but never seen. Dustin have been mentioned once, by Arya to Tywin, Torrhen's Square has been mentioned but not the Tallharts, and obviously the Reeds and Mormonts have appeared. I'm pretty sure this episode was the first mention of the Manderlys, and I don't think Ryswell, Flint, Hornwood, Cerwyn or the Mountain Clans have been mentioned in any capacity.

If I recall correctly, it was a Glover that spoke after the GreatJon when they proclaimed Robb the King in the North, and they were mentioned by the GreatJon at the dinner where Grey Wind bites off his fingers. That's about it I think.

[episodenone]

In a single episode the writers on the show could introduce all of the politics of the North and it would be better than half a season of exposition.

And EVERY single house in the North is suspect to be still loyal to the Starks -- just like in the books the Manderly's aren't out right in the fight until they are.

Outside of the Karstark's [who's leader gets his head cut off by Robb] there is no way of knowing how quickly any family is loyal to any other.

If you take the show story and eliminate the books from your minds - it all seems a lot less certain.  I'm quite surprised so many think that spoken words by Ramsey can be taken literally or even without an acre of salt.  He's not Roose and he's not a Stark.

And there are Stark's alive and well -- Rickon and Sansa have no other allegiances than to Winterfell. Once they show up and declare themselves - there will be a nice moment a la Tommen telling Cersei a la Michael telling the Don "I am with you now"

And the Starks will get one more chance to rule in the North for as long as there is a North to be ruled.

[Masha]

I am OK with D&D changing loyalties of Umbers and making them more like Karstarks and being the ones who betrayed Rickon. But I will be pretty upset if they butcher Manderly and not have him turn secretly pro-Stark at the end. Manderly was the best thing about Northern conspiracy in the books

[Lord_Ravenstone]

31 minutes ago, episodenone said:

In a single episode the writers on the show could introduce all of the politics of the North and it would be better than half a season of exposition.

And EVERY single house in the North is suspect to be still loyal to the Starks -- just like in the books the Manderly's aren't out right in the fight until they are.

Outside of the Karstark's [who's leader gets his head cut off by Robb] there is no way of knowing how quickly any family is loyal to any other.

If you take the show story and eliminate the books from your minds - it all seems a lot less certain.  I'm quite surprised so many think that spoken words by Ramsey can be taken literally or even without an acre of salt.  He's not Roose and he's not a Stark.

And there are Stark's alive and well -- Rickon and Sansa have no other allegiances than to Winterfell. Once they show up and declare themselves - there will be a nice moment a la Tommen telling Cersei a la Michael telling the Don "I am with you now"

And the Starks will get one more chance to rule in the North for as long as there is a North to be ruled.

Well taking the leaks into account which are proving more and more true and the fact that Ramsay Sue can warp the plot to cater to him

 

im surprised you don't take it as a given

[Tagganaro]

11 minutes ago, Masha said:

I am OK with D&D changing loyalties of Umbers and making them more like Karstarks and being the ones who betrayed Rickon. But I will be pretty upset if they butcher Manderly and not have him turn secretly pro-Stark at the end. Manderly was the best thing about Northern conspiracy in the books

I feel pretty comfortable saying we are 100% getting some version of Manderley's "The North Remembers" speech.  They wouldn't leave that out.  I think that old woman at WF from last year was laying some of the groundwork for them to go there.

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

Yes to the GNC!

Does anyone else think the red wedding could have been the catalyst for turning the Karstarks allegiance back to the Starks?  I think they're just playing along with Ramsay to get Roose out of the picture. 

[King of Winter-ish Stuff]

21 hours ago, Hos the Hostage said:

The Karstark males in the books are not part of GNC. They are on Roose's side. Except perhaps Harrion who is a prisoner of the Crown. The book Karstarks have even lesser reason to be involved in GNC, if there is a GNC. It looks like they are simply choosing the safer option by siding with Ramsay. If the Lannisters come North with an army, this same Lord Karstark may turn over to their side. Umbers now, I don't recall who died in show's version of Red Wedding, but they could easily have a young son or favorite uncle captive of the Boltons or the Crown which will ensure their loylaty to Ramsay - at least on the surface. From the banners we saw in the trailers, the Umbers clearly side with the Boltons. But it is possible that they are part of a ploy and will turn over to the Starks's side at the right/wrong moment. Hpwever, the 'next time on GoT' seems to show an Umber bringing a gift (RIckon most likely) to Ramsay. Anyone who'd do that is clearly not a Stark supporter. I really hope show!Manderlys do not become truly loyal to Boltons, because that is a great insult to Wyman Manderly's speech from the books. Even if they do side with Boltons, they should turn on their back mid-battle at least.

As for the intentions of Karstarks or Umbers in supporting Ramsay, maybe they are actually supporting Littlefinger (for money or food for winter), who knows. In the show, that guy turns up like everywhere. People are already theorizing him to be the show!Harpy.

What timestamp do you have for seeing Umber banners siding with the Boltons?

[Tyrek Lannister]

11 hours ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

Yes to the GNC!

Does anyone else think the red wedding could have been the catalyst for turning the Karstarks allegiance back to the Starks?  I think they're just playing along with Ramsay to get Roose out of the picture. 

Yeah, I feel like Ramsay is due for a dissapointment in the upcoming episodes. Killing his father, who is by the way the last sane Bolton and nobody bats an eye? Seems too plausible even for show Ramsay.

[The Night King Cometh]

I actually re-watched the Red Wedding episode recently and made it a point to look for any signs of the Northern Houses other than Stark and Bolton.  The only one I saw was a Manderly Trident pin on the coat of a man sitting behind Robb and Talisa.  Kind of strange since I don't think anyone on the show had ever even mentioned the Manderlys but it was interesting.  Especially since the Umbers HAD been mentioned and even featured in at least the 1st season, possibly 2nd season too, yet no sign of them at the Red Wedding.

Also, it actually may have been politically beneficial for Ramsay to kill Roose.  Ramsay can honestly say that he played no part in the Red Wedding and that he expelled the Iron Born from Winterfell after they sacked it.  Since there is no Lady Hornwood in the show, there is no other reason for the Northern lords to distrust him other than hearsay and rumors. 

All that being said, it really doesn't matter since D&D are just going to make shit up regardless of what makes sense for certain characters or whats happened in the books or even whats happened in previous seasons.

[LadyAlisande]

My theory: the comment about the Manderlys, Umbers etc. was setting up for Sansa's storyline. Ramsay knows she is heading for the Wall and he is going to cut off her route, forcing her to turn east instead. She will head for House Manderly and take refuge there, we'll meet Wyman and get his great speech and the GNC will begin to be revealed. And that gets Sansa out of the way for a battle between Ramsay and Jon.

Or Jon might send Davos to House Manderly to better connect with the books plot. 

[Hos the Hostage]

The House Stark tease sounds like it's from the Pink Letter. "Come and see". Jon's actions following the PL was friggin heroic Stark moment. Maybe we will get that, and without the assassination twist?

[ErasmusF]

Lyanna Mormont has been confirmed as cast for this season, so she will deliver The North Remembers speech to Davos. It is known. 

http://watchersonthewall.com/liam-cunningham-confirms-a-new-character-in-season-6-and-the-cast-talk-white-walkers-crazy-theories-and-more/

The gift might be fRickon. Or it might be Rickon. Or it might be Theon. Or it might be a Frey/Bolton pie of some sort from Lyanna. 

I think most likely it is Theon.  

[Lord Martin]

22 minutes ago, ErasmusF said:

Lyanna Mormont has been confirmed as cast for this season, so she will deliver The North Remembers speech to Davos. It is known. 

http://watchersonthewall.com/liam-cunningham-confirms-a-new-character-in-season-6-and-the-cast-talk-white-walkers-crazy-theories-and-more/

The gift might be fRickon. Or it might be Rickon. Or it might be Theon. Or it might be a Frey/Bolton pie of some sort from Lyanna. 

I think most likely it is Theon.  

I also think its FRickon.  Its just the right shade of the books without sticking to them fully.

I fully agree Lyanna Mormont will give the Stark speech to Davos.  But I cannot tell if Sansa will be there too.  Photos 3 and 4 here look like the same room and chandelier:  http://winteriscoming.net/2016/04/14/theorycrafting-is-sansa-teaming-up-with-davos-in-game-of-thrones-season-6/

A Grand Northern Conspiracy has been hinted at on the show since the Red Wedding.  Roose tells Ramsay on many occasions that he cannot rule so ruthlessly or he'll be taken out and slaughtered for pigs feed.  Further back, when they send Locke after Jon and Bran, Roose and Ramsay discuss how the north would rally around Bran or Rickon.  We also get "the North Remembers" in Season 5.  

Also, why else would Lyanna Mormont claim to support the King in the North whose name is Stark to Stannis unless she knew a male Stark was still alive?  Seems to me that the Umbers have let some of the other northern houses know that Rickon is alive.  

If the Umbers are telling the other houses they have Rickon, why do a complete 180 and give him to Ramsay?  A ruse makes much more sense, especially since the Umbers appear to be part of a plot against the Boltons in the books.  This show will likely have the Umbers play the parts of both the Umbers and the Manderlys.

 

[Juan_Snow]

33 minutes ago, Lord Martin said:

I also think its FRickon.  Its just the right shade of the books without sticking to them fully.

I fully agree Lyanna Mormont will give the Stark speech to Davos.  But I cannot tell if Sansa will be there too.  Photos 3 and 4 here look like the same room and chandelier:  http://winteriscoming.net/2016/04/14/theorycrafting-is-sansa-teaming-up-with-davos-in-game-of-thrones-season-6/

A Grand Northern Conspiracy has been hinted at on the show since the Red Wedding.  Roose tells Ramsay on many occasions that he cannot rule so ruthlessly or he'll be taken out and slaughtered for pigs feed.  Further back, when they send Locke after Jon and Bran, Roose and Ramsay discuss how the north would rally around Bran or Rickon.  We also get "the North Remembers" in Season 5.  

Also, why else would Lyanna Mormont claim to support the King in the North whose name is Stark to Stannis unless she knew a male Stark was still alive?  Seems to me that the Umbers have let some of the other northern houses know that Rickon is alive.  

If the Umbers are telling the other houses they have Rickon, why do a complete 180 and give him to Ramsay?  A ruse makes much more sense, especially since the Umbers appear to be part of a plot against the Boltons in the books.  This show will likely have the Umbers play the parts of both the Umbers and the Manderlys.

 

Sansa is planning on finding Jon, and I suspect she will.  It makes sense that he sends her and Davos to the Mormonts since Jon knows they are still fiercely loyal to the Starks.  Those shots of Sansa and Davos with the Chandalier and the Mormont banners all piece together nicely.

[Lord Friendzone]

29 minutes ago, Juan_Snow said:

Sansa is planning on finding Jon, and I suspect she will.  It makes sense that he sends her and Davos to the Mormonts since Jon knows they are still fiercely loyal to the Starks.  Those shots of Sansa and Davos with the Chandalier and the Mormont banners all piece together nicely.

Currently it's 50/50...it's to obvious but then again D&D are writting it so. It would be great to see them reunited. Mormonts, Cerwyns might be too, Hornwood and who knows if Manderlys might switch sides. I heard about someone switching sies during the battle but no idea if it's true or not.

 

21 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

I feel pretty comfortable saying we are 100% getting some version of Manderley's "The North Remembers" speech.  They wouldn't leave that out.  I think that old woman at WF from last year was laying some of the groundwork for them to go there.

They mentioned in casting cal someboy will delive stirring speech and it sounds like The North Remembers one and that person is described very much like Wyman Manderly but of course they can give it to someone else with a different name. Lyanna Mormont might not be the one to deliver that but she'll treat with Davos. Sophie shoot pretty much the same day like Kit when this meeting was supposed to happen.

 

1 hour ago, ErasmusF said:

Lyanna Mormont has been confirmed as cast for this season, so she will deliver The North Remembers speech to Davos. It is known. 

http://watchersonthewall.com/liam-cunningham-confirms-a-new-character-in-season-6-and-the-cast-talk-white-walkers-crazy-theories-and-more/

The gift might be fRickon. Or it might be Rickon. Or it might be Theon. Or it might be a Frey/Bolton pie of some sort from Lyanna. 

I think most likely it is Theon.  

I wouldn't be so sure on Lyanna. Casting call mentioned some guy very closely described as Wyman Manderly to deliver the speech. Sophie filmed then, Kit too. Davos might be there aswell.

Theon dosn't make sense. He just got out of there and we know he's heading elsewhere than Winterfell. In the trailer he meet Yara. He'll be part of Kingsmoot and then surprising trip somewhere. Gift is most likely Rickon or fRickon...but we'l know if he hs his direwolf by his side. Shaggydog and of course Osha.

23 hours ago, Anarcho said:

With the obvious exception of Bolton and Stark, I think the Greatjon and Rickard Karstark are the only Northern lords to have physically appeared. The Glovers have been mentioned a few times but never seen. Dustin have been mentioned once, by Arya to Tywin, Torrhen's Square has been mentioned but not the Tallharts, and obviously the Reeds and Mormonts have appeared. I'm pretty sure this episode was the first mention of the Manderlys, and I don't think Ryswell, Flint, Hornwood, Cerwyn or the Mountain Clans have been mentioned in any capacity.

Cerwyn was mentioned last season. Ramsay flayed Lord Cerwyn, his wife and his brother living and his son paid taxes. We saw in the trailer banners of House Horwnood too. Others don't know.

 

[Tagganaro]

17 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Currently it's 50/50...it's to obvious but then again D&D are writting it so. It would be great to see them reunited. Mormonts, Cerwyns might be too, Hornwood and who knows if Manderlys might switch sides. I heard about someone switching sies during the battle but no idea if it's true or not.

They mentioned in casting cal someboy will delive stirring speech and it sounds like The North Remembers one and that person is described very much like Wyman Manderly but of course they can give it to someone else with a different name. Lyanna Mormont might not be the one to deliver that but she'll treat with Davos. Sophie shoot pretty much the same day like Kit when this meeting was supposed to happen.

I wouldn't be so sure on Lyanna. Casting call mentioned some guy very closely described as Wyman Manderly to deliver the speech. Sophie filmed then, Kit too. Davos might be there aswell.

Yes I didn't want to mention because I wasn't sure if spoilerish, but the casting call specifically said:

Spoiler

He is a fat nobleman in his 60’s. He has distinctive rugged features, a Northern accent, and a distinguished air. Our source says he has a stirring speech during which he unexpectedly shifts political allegiances.

This is 100% Wyman Manderley and 100% the famous North Remembers speech

I was furious last season with the ridiculous simplicity of the Northern storyline, with seemingly no Northern lords present or mentioned during the Ramsay/Sansa wedding and the only callback to the Red Wedding being that one old servant saying the North Remembers.

I'm very glad now that we seem to be getting a relatively (for the show at least) in-depth version of the GNC, with at least 4 houses 100% confirmed to be involved in some manner (Karstark, Umber, Manderly, and Mormont).  Personally I would love to see the Hill/Mountain tribes as well with their love for the Ned and Big Bucket Wull, but doubt we are getting that.  Cerwyns and Hornwoods would be awesome as well.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

8 hours ago, Lord Martin said:

I also think its FRickon.  Its just the right shade of the books without sticking to them fully.

I fully agree Lyanna Mormont will give the Stark speech to Davos.  But I cannot tell if Sansa will be there too.  Photos 3 and 4 here look like the same room and chandelier:  http://winteriscoming.net/2016/04/14/theorycrafting-is-sansa-teaming-up-with-davos-in-game-of-thrones-season-6/

A Grand Northern Conspiracy has been hinted at on the show since the Red Wedding.  Roose tells Ramsay on many occasions that he cannot rule so ruthlessly or he'll be taken out and slaughtered for pigs feed.  Further back, when they send Locke after Jon and Bran, Roose and Ramsay discuss how the north would rally around Bran or Rickon.  We also get "the North Remembers" in Season 5.  

Also, why else would Lyanna Mormont claim to support the King in the North whose name is Stark to Stannis unless she knew a male Stark was still alive?  Seems to me that the Umbers have let some of the other northern houses know that Rickon is alive.  

If the Umbers are telling the other houses they have Rickon, why do a complete 180 and give him to Ramsay?  A ruse makes much more sense, especially since the Umbers appear to be part of a plot against the Boltons in the books.  This show will likely have the Umbers play the parts of both the Umbers and the Manderlys.

 

It's definitely Rickon 

the show doesn't pull fake outs like that 

the real Mance died 

a real Stark was married to Ramsay 

ramsay really did beat Stannis on the show