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if it please m'lord

Tyrion Targaryen?

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1 hour ago, if it please m'lord said:

Did anyone else feel that tonight's episode pretty much laid the foundation for the Tyrion-is-a-Targaryen theory? 

I, for one, am a complete believer! And this episode confirmed it to me. 

I'm actually convinced based on 6x02 that Tyrion is NOT a secret Targ, and I'll tell you why:

1. Because Tyrion is a central character, it seems very unlikely that D&D would have him be a secret Targ in the show if he weren't one in the books, and vice versa.

2. Book canon: dragons are nice to people with Targ blood. TV canon (6x02): dragons are nice to people they view as friends. Also, dragons are very intelligent and can be reasoned with.

3. Book/TWOIAF canon: Aerys had a thing for Joanna and they may have had an affair. TV canon: no mention of any relationship between Aerys and Joanna.

4. TV Tyrion tames the dragons by using an approach based on his knowledge of dragons: reason with them (since they are intelligent) and present yourself as a friend. The dragons didn't attack him, but they don't attack Missandei, either, and Missandei is not a Targ. Tyrion is able to work with the dragons based on his knowledge, not through some special magical means.

5. TV Tyrion does not appear to be a Targ. Therefore, it is unlikely that Book Tyrion is a Targ.

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So people also believe Missandei is Targaryen?

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Jon is pretty much confirmed a Targ maybe he will ride Rhaeghal maybe he won't. For the longest time I thought it would be just cool if Tyrion was a Targ too then it would tie up the story all neatly, three targs three dragons, but you know what it is a little too neat. 

I like the explanation about trust between a man and a beast. Tyrion has always been fighting against odds to do great things in life. Does he need special blood or special tongue to befriend a Dragon, why can't he just be worthy of a Dragon because he is brave, strong and has a special connection with a Dragon just for who he is that has nothing to do with lineage. 

I know the ancient Valyrians were exclusive dragaon riders, and the Targs believed their control on dragons was because of their Valyrian blood so foolishly they inbred in their family to keep the bloodlines pure causing a lot of them to go insane. Maybe this myth will break and dragon riding is more than being of Valyrian descent and dragons have some free will in who they bond with. Also I don't mind Dany's ego breaking in thinking she owns these dragons and she is special because of them. 

Lastly if Tyrion was a targ it will undo the Tywin Tyion father son relationship. Tywin was a cunt if he was a targ then it will justify his ill treatment of Tyrion and I think that will be a cop out. Tywin was a bad father because he was a blind fool, who couldn't look past his prejudices, and his pride failed to recognize the best in his son, his cruelty towards his son was his downfall after all his talks about family legacy and Lannister name living on forever in the end Tywin died on the toilet because he was ignorant and like the men he hated couldn't look at the bigger picture.

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I didn't see it having anything to do with that theory. Tyrion knows things, that along with drinking is what he does. There has been no mention whatsoever of Tyrion being Targaryen in the show. There were clues in the books, hair color, Joanna/The Mad King etc, but none of that has been presented in the show.

If anything this episode may have confirmed Bran as a dragon rider, and he isn't a Targ either. The 3 eyed raven told Bran he would fly. Now in this episode we get Leaf(?) telling Meera that Bran will need her when he leaves the caves. Now the real question is does he ride one of Dany's or an ice dragon, or even Sheepstealer?

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This portion of the episode only showed me that "anyone can walk up to a chained animal and unchain it" that is if the animal senses no real threat.  I don't think it proved or disproved anything.  I do agree that the absence of foreshadowing in the TV show makes me think he is not a Targ.

 

I do find it cool that the second dragon understood what happened to the first and rolled his/her neck for Tyrion to have a better angle at the collar.

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I think the show is not going to touch on that because it's not necessary. It leaves open a small window where you can read that into it if you want, but it neither confirms nor denies either possibility. It kind of parallels the situation with Ghost, I think. The scene where Jon wakes leaves open a small possibility that Jon was in Ghost and didn't waken until Ghost did and he realized that he could. Or it could just be Ghost sensing Jon was back - in both cases, you can read what you want there, which I think was deliberate.

Personally, I don't want Tyrion to be a Targ, but I can see where it's likely. I was vehemently against it because of the Tyrion/Tywin dynamic, but I've shifted my view on that. If you see the central relationship in that family drama not being Tywin/Tyrion but rather Tywin/Aerys, it really explains a lot between the King and his Hand. It also fits nicely with the theme of the books that the past is what drives the present. This is probably not the place for this discussion.

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Jon being a Targ is enough, having Tyrion seems like overkill... I'm sure if GRRM had told DD that he was one then they would have foreshadowed it earlier but as they haven't suddenly having two extra Targs lessens the impact of being a Targ and ruins the whole thing.

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You know -- reading all your posts -- I can objectively say that none of your arguments swayed me either way.  Not to say you all aren't making excellent points and clever observations -- I just still am on the fence.

I still do not know if he will be or won't be a Targ -- same for Jon.  At least one thing I can look forward to is that the show will probably answer these questions sooner rather than later.  Whereas I have no hope the books will do this ever.

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8 hours ago, if it please m'lord said:

Did anyone else feel that tonight's episode pretty much laid the foundation for the Tyrion-is-a-Targaryen theory? 

I, for one, am a complete believer! And this episode confirmed it to me

How is Tyrion meeting 2 dragons make him is a targ? by your logic Missandei is also a targ, she meet the dragon also, how Tyrion remove the chains confirmed to you that he is a targ? you are speaking no sense, you are seeing things from thin air, Tyrion already gave you the answer in the episode : they are friendly animals, this targs theories bullshit will never stop, everbody is a secret targ now : tyrion, melisandre, varys, ... and even ser pounce

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I think that whether he is a Targ or not, this scene shouldn't push us toward either possibility. This was probably the best option D&D could come up with as an excuse to have the dragons released. Someone had to do it instead of Frog.

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No but it confirms that the dragons in this universe are essentially giant very scary looking, but very intelligent dogs, and not merely weapons of mass destruction.  Tyrion using studied psychology, and strategy, is confident enough in understanding their behavioral traits to interact with them. He knows that highly intelligent and socially complex animals like these respond positively towards those that treat them with caring and affection. The Targaryen dynastic use of dragons is such a fearsome political tool as to make them seem mythical but Tyrion is too smart to be swayed by myth. In George RR Martin's world I could see how a character like Tyrion, who is Martin's "modern" thinker in this medieval world, would completely usurp the notions of bloodline tied to power by proving his capability at feats, as a "handicapped" plain jane Lannister that only Targaryens/Valyrians in that world are entitled to achieve. Dragons are just one example of his ability to think above this medieval level and thats what makes Tyrion such a unique character in Westeros. 

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I dearly hope that Tyrion is not a Targaryen. I have little and less love and respect for Tyrion in the books. The show made up for that a little, because they cut some of his crap and Peter Dinklage portrays a very likable interpretation of the character and does it very well. But being a secret Targaryen would completely murder his character, his relationship with Jaime, his relationship with Tywin, it would completely murder Tywin's character and it would be absolutely ridiculously unnecessary. 

As far as I'm concerned, Tyrion's obsession with dragons is nowhere near a proof of his being a Targaryen, because that makes me a Targaryen too. His scene unchaining the dragons out of mercy, love and curiosity was beautiful and for the first time made me connect with him. It was like approaching a wounded dog on the street, you don't know if it's going to bite you or not, but you want to help because he's so cute and it breaks your heart to see it in pain. The dog will let you help the same way the dragons let Tyrion help. If he was a Targaryen, it would ruin this scene too. 

Beyond my emotional reluctance to Tyrion being a Targaryen, the fact that the dragons like and never hurt Missandei (and Irri and Doreah before) also supports that you don't have to be a Targaryen to be able to approach dragons. You guys also made great points about Tyrion's knowledge and dragon intelligence being emphasized for a reason. 

As for the Aerys Joanna thing, I personally think that's a total BS. All we know is that Aerys fancied Joanna and was a perverted creep. Nothing indicates that Joanna fancied Aerys, in fact, what I remember being indicated in the books is that Joanna and Tywin had a pretty happy marriage and Tywin was madly in love with Joanna and even let her "rule him". Tywin is also a highly intelligent man and a huge player. Had Aerys and Joanna had an affair, he would have found out and he would not have suffered it. I don't see Tywin forgiving Joanna (he and Tyrion are said to have similar characters, by lady genna, and Tyrion killed shae when he caught her with Tywin) and especially don't see him letting her carry the child and even bringing up that child after her death. Had Aerys had his way with Joanna against her will, I see no reason why Tywin wouldn't find out and if he did find out, I don't see why he would raise Tyrion. Tywin is not bloody Snape. The one and only reason why Tywin would let Tyrion live and bring him up as his son is that he has no doubt that he is his son. 

Of course I cannot be 100% sure, but I'm all for Tyrion Lannister and not Targaryen. 

And I also think that the number 1 reason why Tyrion does cool stuff and has cool stuff happen to him is because he is a main character and both D&D and GRRM's favorite character, as well as the ultimate fan favorite. He doesn't have to be a Targaryen. 

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For those who do not feel there has been foreshadowing, you are forgetting what is staring you in the face.

 

Tywin Lanister's last words were "You are not my son!" It does not matter where you stand on this debate, but to deny that that could be foreshadowing is closing your mind based on your viewpoint.

 

Additionally wild predators in captivity behave differently based on the individual animal. To believe that anyone can unchain a predator, and live, as a given, is naive at best. Lions and Tigers have shown to do either. They could let you pet them, be indifferent, or they could eat you, and quite a few animal handlers have paid for this lesson with their life. Also that the Dragons have not attacked anyone close to Dany, does not relate to Tyrion. The Dragons have never seen Dany's emotions towards Tyrion, as most animals base their aggression level with new people on the subtle reactions of their Master/Pack Leader Human. Dragons are believed to be intelligent, but they are also highly aggressive, Drogon even snapped at Dany in the show. These Dragons not only chose to not harm Tyrion (They were prepared to with Flame ready), they also turned their backs to him and wandered back into their lair. Dragons that have not eaten since Dany flew off. 

 

Now maybe they have extra sensory perceptions that have not been revealed. Maybe they could feel that Tyrion was there to help them. But right now there is enough evidence to entertain either view point.

 

Now, personally, I am not sure if Tyrion is a secret Targaryian or not, but D&D are not GRRM and they have shown to write along Tropes instead of smashing them when they are creating storyline. I certainly would not put it past them based on what they have already written. Consider me undecided at this point.

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Tyrion is "special" enough without the need to get a fucking dragon.

Jon is the hidden one. That's enough.

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I don't buy it because Missendei and I think Doreah on the show have interacted with them with ease. 

Also, Tyrion as a Targ just bugs me for the simple point that Tywin Lannister should never be proved right by saying all along that Tyrion was not his son. 

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everyone around dany has interacted with the dragons on some level and only people burned eaten etc were enemies or kids as prey...

and i shall remind everyone what the wiki says 

Quote

Dragons will not simply allow anyone to mount them. They seem to be very selective of who they allow become their rider. The rider having Valyrian heritage might be a factor. Once a dragon bonds with a rider, that dragon will not allow anyone else to mount it while its rider lives, though dragons will allow new riders once their previous rider is deceased. No rider though has ever ridden a different dragon while his/her current dragon was alive.[12]

as you can see here it might be valyrian blood...it might not...

 

tyrion is not a targ...he might have a drop of old valyrian blood somewhere in his line but even if not, it is clear the dragon chooses...

and i for one want him to get one 

:smoking:

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Targaryen or not, if he does not become a dragonrider, I'll eat my proverbial hat.

Anyway, since it's a common belief in the books that only Targaryens can ride dragons, then Tyrion riding a dragon will probably convince them he is Aerys' son by Joanna, whether it is true or false. The effect on the plot will therefore be the same.

Of course, the show has never bothered with the idea that only Valyrians can ride dragons.

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If he is Aerys son I would think it would only  be by rape not an affair. As for Tywin saying you are not my son, well he does also give him things just because he is his son, so this really is not ever a biological point but a symbolic one designed to inflict the most pain.

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I'm fairly certain, NO other show characters (except Dany) have ever TOUCHED one of the dragons.  If anyone has an example, please point it out.  

I think this fact alone, is HUGELY significant.  There has been implied interaction etc, but not ON SCREEN touching, until NOW.

Also, Dany has not even touched those two since she chained them.  Yet they let a STRANGER walk up to them and touch them.  Also, the WHITE dragon offers his neck!  This type of gesture is written about in the Dance of Dragons saga - of the Dragon accepting a rider.

So, I think Tyrion touching them IS very significant.

TWO other points:

Is it just a coincidence that ALL three main characters' MOTHERS died to bring them into the world?  Are we supposed to ignore that GIANT connection?

Is it just a coincidence that ALL three main characters have had ONE great love in their life that ended badly?  AND all three have vowed to never love again?  This is another GIANT connection as well.

You can believe it or not, but they are the main characters and they are the dragon riders.  

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