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Tyrion Targaryen?


if it please m'lord

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34 minutes ago, RhaeBee said:

but please tell me what's a strong argument against Tyrion being a Targaryen. 

I think there is none. I just noticed on this forum that people getting very agitated because they love father-son dynamic between Tywin and Tyrion and can't stand the idea of it being lessened by Tywin not being Tyrion's father. I just find amusing. 

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1 hour ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

On the other hand... I don't believe this episode adds any more weight to the Tyrion Targ theory.  Before Tyrion goes to unchain the dragons, we are very deliberately told that:

(1) the dragons are refusing to eat 

(2) the dragons have never harmed those who are friendly to them 

(3) dragons are very intelligent

(4) Tyrion has done a lot of reading about dragons and their behaviour.  

We are also very deliberately told that dragons don't prosper in captivity but these boys have grown a lot since they've been changed. But this might have been a simple production issue because the actors who play the dragons have grown older and bigger since. Wait ...

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3 minutes ago, messem said:

I think there is none. I just noticed on this forum that people getting very agitated because they love father-son dynamic between Tywin and Tyrion and can't stand the idea of it being lessened by Tywin not being Tyrion's father. I just find amusing. 

The thing is, Tywin's relationship with Tyrion is often used to support that he is a Targaryen and that's where Tywin's hatred stems from, in the first place. Their relationship is commonly used to argue both pro and con Tyrion Targaryen dependent on the personal preference and interpretation of whoever makes the argument. So I suppose it goes both ways. 

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Storyline-wise I would hate it if Tyrion was a Targaryen. It would take all the sting out of the "Tyrion is Tywin's son" storyline. That arc was one of the book and the shows strongest points and it would just feel wrong now to throw this around. 

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9 minutes ago, messem said:

We are also very deliberately told that dragons don't prosper in captivity but these boys have grown a lot since they've been changed. But this might have been a simple production issue because the actors who play the dragons have grown older and bigger since. Wait ...

:D:D:D

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25 minutes ago, messem said:

I think there is none. I just noticed on this forum that people getting very agitated because they love father-son dynamic between Tywin and Tyrion and can't stand the idea of it being lessened by Tywin not being Tyrion's father. I just find amusing. 

The irony of brothers Jaime and Tyrion each killing the other one’s father is the sort of mirrored symmetry that Martin so enjoys.

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On 5/2/2016 at 7:52 AM, ssls6 said:

This portion of the episode only showed me that "anyone can walk up to a chained animal and unchain it" that is if the animal senses no real threat.  I don't think it proved or disproved anything.  I do agree that the absence of foreshadowing in the TV show makes me think he is not a Targ.

 

I do find it cool that the second dragon understood what happened to the first and rolled his/her neck for Tyrion to have a better angle at the collar.

The books show that is not the case. Remember what happened when someone tried to free them. Didn't turn out well.

I don't get the argument against Tyrion being a secret Targ, I think they are all good arguments FOR.

Tywin Lannister was clearly heavily involved in the start of Robert's rebellion. Here is one theory:

Tywin suspects Ellia is pregnant by Aerys. Tywin forces Elia to have an abortion. It fails, Tyrion is born alive but stunted and with mismatched eyes. Tywin's hatred of Aerys leads him to play the Littlefinger role in Robert's rebellion pouring poison into Robert's ear.

Thing is, the plot works just as well if Tywin is right or wrong. It is certainly hinted at but is Tywin right or is the irony that Tyrion is his only legitimate son. 

We don't know the prophecy that led to the rift between Aerys and Rheagar. But it involved three heads. There are three Lannister children and I believe three R+E children as well. So maybe Tywin was impotent and all three children are by Aerys.

Tyrion could be by Tywin and have Targ blood from another source.

If Tyrion is by Aerys and R+E=J then Jon and Tyrion are linked in many ways, they are all the third child, Jon is the legitimate heir passed off as a bastard, Tyrion is the opposite.

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20 minutes ago, hallam said:

We don't know the prophecy that led to the rift between Aerys and Rheagar. But it involved three heads. There are three Lannister children and I believe three R+E children as well. So maybe Tywin was impotent and all three children are by Aerys.

Tyrion could be by Tywin and have Targ blood from another source.

If Tyrion is by Aerys and R+E=J then Jon and Tyrion are linked in many ways, they are all the third child, Jon is the legitimate heir passed off as a bastard, Tyrion is the opposite.

Let’s not forget Dany, who is also a third child. 

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I'm finding the theory increasingly credible. "Tyrion is not a Targaryen because I don't like that idea" is a terrible argument. The fact is, it's entirely possible that Aerys raped Joanna, and that Tywin loved Joanna so much and was so humiliated by what happened that he kept it secret and accepted the child as his own -- but only to a point. 

Sure, Tyrion being a dwarf and having "killed his mother" in childbirth would be enough reason for the strained relationship between Tywin and Tyrion. But IMO the possibility of this scenario adds even more depth and complexity to the relationship.

And why is it so crazy that there would be more than one secret Targaryen, at the point where Targaryen children had their brains dashed against walls merely because they were Targaryen? Of course any remaining kids went into hiding and/or were kept secret.

At the point where we're getting R+L=J in the next few episodes, I don't think anyone should be surprised if it turns out A+J=T as well.

 

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23 minutes ago, hallam said:

The books show that is not the case. Remember what happened when someone tried to free them. Didn't turn out well.

I don't get the argument against Tyrion being a secret Targ, I think they are all good arguments FOR.

Tywin Lannister was clearly heavily involved in the start of Robert's rebellion. Here is one theory:

Tywin suspects Ellia is pregnant by Aerys. Tywin forces Elia to have an abortion. It fails, Tyrion is born alive but stunted and with mismatched eyes. Tywin's hatred of Aerys leads him to play the Littlefinger role in Robert's rebellion pouring poison into Robert's ear.

Thing is, the plot works just as well if Tywin is right or wrong. It is certainly hinted at but is Tywin right or is the irony that Tyrion is his only legitimate son. 

We don't know the prophecy that led to the rift between Aerys and Rheagar. But it involved three heads. There are three Lannister children and I believe three R+E children as well. So maybe Tywin was impotent and all three children are by Aerys.

Tyrion could be by Tywin and have Targ blood from another source.

If Tyrion is by Aerys and R+E=J then Jon and Tyrion are linked in many ways, they are all the third child, Jon is the legitimate heir passed off as a bastard, Tyrion is the opposite.

This would also "expain" why Cercei and Jamie enjoy each other so much....the Targs had been keeping their bloodline pure through incest for centuries...

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36 minutes ago, Valhalla Morghulis said:

Because otherwise one of the most climactic scenes to this whole entire saga will just be Spartacus 2.0

Could you please elaborate? 

7 minutes ago, hallam said:

The books show that is not the case. Remember what happened when someone tried to free them. Didn't turn out well.

I don't get the argument against Tyrion being a secret Targ, I think they are all good arguments FOR.

Tywin Lannister was clearly heavily involved in the start of Robert's rebellion. Here is one theory:

Tywin suspects Ellia is pregnant by Aerys. Tywin forces Elia to have an abortion. It fails, Tyrion is born alive but stunted and with mismatched eyes. Tywin's hatred of Aerys leads him to play the Littlefinger role in Robert's rebellion pouring poison into Robert's ear.

Thing is, the plot works just as well if Tywin is right or wrong. It is certainly hinted at but is Tywin right or is the irony that Tyrion is his only legitimate son. 

We don't know the prophecy that led to the rift between Aerys and Rheagar. But it involved three heads. There are three Lannister children and I believe three R+E children as well. So maybe Tywin was impotent and all three children are by Aerys.

Tyrion could be by Tywin and have Targ blood from another source.

If Tyrion is by Aerys and R+E=J then Jon and Tyrion are linked in many ways, they are all the third child, Jon is the legitimate heir passed off as a bastard, Tyrion is the opposite.

What are you talking about? 

Elia Martell is Rhaegar Targaryen's wife, she has nothing to do with Tywin or Aerys or Tyrion (in the sense of being the mother of Tyrion by either of them). You mean Joanna Lannister, Tywin's wife, I suppose. There isn't really a percent for an abortion gone wrong in asoiaf, as far as I know, Cersei was the one who had plenty and none of those failed. 

Tywin also played no part in triggering Robert to start a rebellion, it was the murder of Lord Rickard Stark and Brandon Stark and the kidnap of Lyanna Stark that sparked the rebellion. Tywin had nothing to do with it until the very end when Robert already had the victory in his pocket. I don't even know of anything that would suggest Robert and Tywin shared words before. 

There were two children born of the marriage of Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell. People often speculate that the whole reason why Rhaegar took Lyanna Stark was because he knew he would not have a third child by Elia (who had poor health and was unlikely to conceive again) but still wanted three children for the three heads of the dragon. 

It is impossible for Jon to be Elia Martell's son on every level. And if Tyrion is Aerys's son and Jon is Rhaegar's they are still linked regardless of who Jon's mother is, who is most definitely not Elia Martell. 

:dunno: 

anyhow, I think the reason why Quentyn failed with the dragons was his complete lack of understanding and selfish motive. Tyrion approached them with knowledge of how to and with the intention of help. 

 

 

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Some people always seem to focus on the "You are not my son" quote said after Tyrion just mortally wounded him, but completely forget what Tywin said when he sent Tyrion to be Hand of the King:
 

Quote

 

"Why me?" he asked, cocking his head to one side. "Why not my uncle? Why not Ser Addam or Ser Flement or Lord Serrett? Why not a... bigger man?"

Lord Tywin rose abruptly. "You are my son."


That was when he knew. You have given him up for lost, he thought. You bloody bastard, you think Jaime's good as dead, so I'm all you have left. Tyrion wanted to slap him, to spit in his face, to draw his dagger and cut the heart out of him and see if it was made of old hard gold, the way the smallfolks said. Yet he sat there, silent and still.

 

 

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One doesn't have to be a Targ to get on with dragons, although it might help... In The Princess and The Queen, one of the dragons selects as its rider someone of humble origins (a shepherd girl?) and no link to the Targs can be made...

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The dragon has three heads, the "sword" Lightbringer took three attempts- three dead mothers, three heroes, three heads.

Warning, there be tinfoil ahead:

In the first Long Night Azor Ahai made three swords, quenching them in water, a lion, and his wife.

What is a Lannister if not a lion?

Tyrion is the woman with a monkey's tail!

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2 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Let’s not forget Dany, who is also a third child. 

Yes, which is a rather curious symmetry.

And in book terms, Dany is also a hidden Targ as she disappears from sight as far as Westeros is concerned.

2 hours ago, LadyAlisande said:

I'm finding the theory increasingly credible. "Tyrion is not a Targaryen because I don't like that idea" is a terrible argument. The fact is, it's entirely possible that Aerys raped Joanna, and that Tywin loved Joanna so much and was so humiliated by what happened that he kept it secret and accepted the child as his own -- but only to a point. 

Sure, Tyrion being a dwarf and having "killed his mother" in childbirth would be enough reason for the strained relationship between Tywin and Tyrion. But IMO the possibility of this scenario adds even more depth and complexity to the relationship.

And why is it so crazy that there would be more than one secret Targaryen, at the point where Targaryen children had their brains dashed against walls merely because they were Targaryen? Of course any remaining kids went into hiding and/or were kept secret.

At the point where we're getting R+L=J in the next few episodes, I don't think anyone should be surprised if it turns out A+J=T as well.

 

There is no possibility that you are going to get anything other than N+? != J. It has taken Jon two episodes to wake up and brush his teeth. And he hasn't even brushed his teeth yet. So you think you are going to find out his parentage next week?

The only circumstance in which we would find out R+L=J this series is if it isn't true. Which it very obviously is not. What we will get is the same hints about R+L=J that there are in the book.

Jon is Rhaegar and Ellia's child. It is the most obvious explanation and there isn't any contrary evidence of consequence. JonCON (com meaning lies) is the only person who said Ellia could not have more children and there is no way he would know the truth of it.

The key to the books is obviously the prophecy that we don't know the details of. Rheagar was obviously hiding something from Aerys and the most obvious explanation for Lyanna's known actions is that she was helping him hide it. A third son according to the prophecy would be that incentive. Ned was clearly very impressed by what Lyanna had done.

Yes, some folk are really attached to that theory and they are really nasty to anyone who suggests it isn't true. That doesn't make it true though.

We have three secret twincest Lannisters, why not two hidden targs?

2 hours ago, RhaeBee said:

Could you please elaborate? 

What are you talking about? 

Elia Martell is Rhaegar Targaryen's wife, she has nothing to do with Tywin or Aerys or Tyrion (in the sense of being the mother of Tyrion by either of them). You mean Joanna Lannister, Tywin's wife, I suppose. There isn't really a percent for an abortion gone wrong in asoiaf, as far as I know, Cersei was the one who had plenty and none of those failed. 

Tywin also played no part in triggering Robert to start a rebellion, it was the murder of Lord Rickard Stark and Brandon Stark and the kidnap of Lyanna Stark that sparked the rebellion. Tywin had nothing to do with it until the very end when Robert already had the victory in his pocket. I don't even know of anything that would suggest Robert and Tywin shared words before. 

There were two children born of the marriage of Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell. People often speculate that the whole reason why Rhaegar took Lyanna Stark was because he knew he would not have a third child by Elia (who had poor health and was unlikely to conceive again) but still wanted three children for the three heads of the dragon. 

It is impossible for Jon to be Elia Martell's son on every level. And if Tyrion is Aerys's son and Jon is Rhaegar's they are still linked regardless of who Jon's mother is, who is most definitely not Elia Martell. 

:dunno: 

anyhow, I think the reason why Quentyn failed with the dragons was his complete lack of understanding and selfish motive. Tyrion approached them with knowledge of how to and with the intention of help. 

 

 

It is entirely possible for Jon to be Elia's son. They were lying about the state of Elia's health because according to the prophecy, the birth of the third dragon head would lead to the death of the king - or something of the sort.

As for Tywin playing no part in Robert's rebellion, why did Aerys murder Rickard and Bradon? Tywin pouring poison in Aery's ear in the manner of Littlefinger looks like a good reason. 

48 minutes ago, Clariana said:

One doesn't have to be a Targ to get on with dragons, although it might help... In The Princess and The Queen, one of the dragons selects as its rider someone of humble origins (a shepherd girl?) and no link to the Targs can be made...

No, the ASOIAF books make it very clear that you have to have the Targ DNA to ride. GRRM can't go back on that one. Not in this series. It would be like Star Trek Voyager firing three times the supply of photo torpedoes. He doesn't do that sort of stuff. That is what he means when he says he doesn't lie to the readers. Dragon riders must be Targ is a rule he has set.

Elia's health is not a fact that he has established. We only have it from one source and second hand and the character's name is 'Gonna mislead about Jon'.

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5 hours ago, messem said:

We are also very deliberately told that dragons don't prosper in captivity but these boys have grown a lot since they've been changed. But this might have been a simple production issue because the actors who play the dragons have grown older and bigger since. Wait ...

The dragon's growth is stunted when in captivity, not completely ceased. Viserion and Rhaegal are smaller than Drogon.

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18 minutes ago, hallam said:

 

The only circumstance in which we would find out R+L=J this series is if it isn't true. Which it very obviously is not. What we will get is the same hints about R+L=J that there are in the book.

Jon is Rhaegar and Ellia's child. It is the most obvious explanation and there isn't any contrary evidence of consequence. JonCON (com meaning lies) is the only person who said Ellia could not have more children and there is no way he would know the truth of it.

The key to the books is obviously the prophecy that we don't know the details of. Rheagar was obviously hiding something from Aerys and the most obvious explanation for Lyanna's known actions is that she was helping him hide it. A third son according to the prophecy would be that incentive. Ned was clearly very impressed by what Lyanna had done.

Yes, some folk are really attached to that theory and they are really nasty to anyone who suggests it isn't true. That doesn't make it true though.

We have three secret twincest Lannisters, why not two hidden targs?

It is entirely possible for Jon to be Elia's son. They were lying about the state of Elia's health because according to the prophecy, the birth of the third dragon head would lead to the death of the king - or something of the sort.

As for Tywin playing no part in Robert's rebellion, why did Aerys murder Rickard and Bradon? Tywin pouring poison in Aery's ear in the manner of Littlefinger looks like a good reason. 

Why is that the only circumstance? surely the show would spend money on showing something that matters instead of something that doesn't. Why introduce Lyanna and the Tower of Joy if they don't matter, because Jon is not Lyanna's child? 

Then please explain because five years a reader/viewer and four years on this board, this is the first time I hear this.  

Who lied about Elia's health? The Dornish? The maesters? Why? Elia had fragile health all her life, she couldn't travel much, and the maesters confirmed it was a miracle she survived birthing Aegon after which the Maesters told Rhaegar she would not bear another child. The information about her health comes from various sources and there is not one reason to believe they were untrue. 

Also, when was Elia supposed to have conceived with Jon? Rhaegar left King's Landing soon after they returned from Harrenhal and why doesn't Jaime remember Elia was pregnant during the time leading up to the sack of King's Landing? When was she supposed to give birth and how did Jon get out of King's Landing and come to Eddard Stark of all people? 

And Aerys murdered Rickard and Brandon because he was mad and paranoid. And Tywin could not have urged the execution as he was not even in King's Landing at the time. He resigned as Hand of the king after the tourney of Harrenhal and returned to casterly Rock. The next time he showed up at KL was when he sacked it. If there was anybody to fuel Aerys's madness and making him more paranoid it was Varys, who was there with him all along and allegedly turned him against Rhaegar. There was also no love or trust lost between Aerys and Tywin for a very long time, Aerys was quite suspicious about Tywin himself and humiliated him at every turn. There's no indication whatsoever that Tywin had anything against Rickard Stark or that his death would have served him in any way. 

None of this has anything to do with Tyrion being a Targaryen. Tyrion can as well be a Targaryen. (I personally don't want that and am not too convinced, but it can still happen) Jon can be Lyanna and Rhaegar's child or not. (I personally want him to be and am quite convinced he is, but it can still happen he isn't) What it has to do with is that those statements make no sense in themselves (let alone supporting/attacking either A+J=T or R+L=J). Tywin had no part in Rickard and Brandon Stark's murder and Elia Martell is not Jon's mother. 

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52 minutes ago, RhaeBee said:

Why is that the only circumstance? surely the show would spend money on showing something that matters instead of something that doesn't. Why introduce Lyanna and the Tower of Joy if they don't matter, because Jon is not Lyanna's child? 

Then please explain because five years a reader/viewer and four years on this board, this is the first time I hear this.  

Who lied about Elia's health? The Dornish? The maesters? Why? Elia had fragile health all her life, she couldn't travel much, and the maesters confirmed it was a miracle she survived birthing Aegon after which the Maesters told Rhaegar she would not bear another child. The information about her health comes from various sources and there is not one reason to believe they were untrue. 

Also, when was Elia supposed to have conceived with Jon? Rhaegar left King's Landing soon after they returned from Harrenhal and why doesn't Jaime remember Elia was pregnant during the time leading up to the sack of King's Landing? When was she supposed to give birth and how did Jon get out of King's Landing and come to Eddard Stark of all people? 

And Aerys murdered Rickard and Brandon because he was mad and paranoid. And Tywin could not have urged the execution as he was not even in King's Landing at the time. He resigned as Hand of the king after the tourney of Harrenhal and returned to casterly Rock. The next time he showed up at KL was when he sacked it. If there was anybody to fuel Aerys's madness and making him more paranoid it was Varys, who was there with him all along and allegedly turned him against Rhaegar. There was also no love or trust lost between Aerys and Tywin for a very long time, Aerys was quite suspicious about Tywin himself and humiliated him at every turn. There's no indication whatsoever that Tywin had anything against Rickard Stark or that his death would have served him in any way. 

None of this has anything to do with Tyrion being a Targaryen. Tyrion can as well be a Targaryen. (I personally don't want that and am not too convinced, but it can still happen) Jon can be Lyanna and Rhaegar's child or not. (I personally want him to be and am quite convinced he is, but it can still happen he isn't) What it has to do with is that those statements make no sense in themselves (let alone supporting/attacking either A+J=T or R+L=J). Tywin had no part in Rickard and Brandon Stark's murder and Elia Martell is not Jon's mother. 

The show is going to show the ToJ because it is important in ways you haven't thought of.

You probably haven't heard other theories because anyone who points out the weaknesses in R+L gets bullied or banned. Take a look at the monster thread and count the number of posters rather than the number of posts. There are hundreds of people who have pointed out real problems with the theory and less than a dozen who have replied to them. 

The story has an unreliable narrator. You have no knowledge of the events of Robert's rebellion, only reports that are third hand at best or in a fever dream. So don't be so sure about what you know. All you have is what people report and their interpretation of the facts may have been wrong.

Littlefinger only met Cat once in KL and he started the war of five kings through her. Tywin is obsessed with bloodlines so it would be ironic if he was sterile. Roberts attempt to extinguish the Targ line has so far extinguished his own. If Jamie, Cersei and Tyrion are all by Aerys then he has done the same to the Lannisters. 

Your chronology is off. Jon was born at Dragonstone before Elia went to KL.

Why did Rickard and Brandon believe Rheagar had kidnapped Lyanna? Because it was true or because Tywin had tricked them like Littlefinger tricked Cat?

The Kingsguard surrounded the ToJ because it contained the legitimate rightful heir to the throne.

If you follow the book it is obvious that Tyrion tried to murder Bran. Only he didn't. It was Littlefinger made it look that way. Expecting Jon's parentage to be obvious is mistaken.

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27 minutes ago, hallam said:

The show is going to show the ToJ because it is important in ways you haven't thought of.

You probably haven't heard other theories because anyone who points out the weaknesses in R+L gets bullied or banned. Take a look at the monster thread and count the number of posters rather than the number of posts. There are hundreds of people who have pointed out real problems with the theory and less than a dozen who have replied to them. 

The story has an unreliable narrator. You have no knowledge of the events of Robert's rebellion, only reports that are third hand at best or in a fever dream. So don't be so sure about what you know. All you have is what people report and their interpretation of the facts may have been wrong.

Littlefinger only met Cat once in KL and he started the war of five kings through her. Tywin is obsessed with bloodlines so it would be ironic if he was sterile. Roberts attempt to extinguish the Targ line has so far extinguished his own. If Jamie, Cersei and Tyrion are all by Aerys then he has done the same to the Lannisters. 

Your chronology is off. Jon was born at Dragonstone before Elia went to KL.

Why did Rickard and Brandon believe Rheagar had kidnapped Lyanna? Because it was true or because Tywin had tricked them like Littlefinger tricked Cat?

The Kingsguard surrounded the ToJ because it contained the legitimate rightful heir to the throne.

If you follow the book it is obvious that Tyrion tried to murder Bran. Only he didn't. It was Littlefinger made it look that way. Expecting Jon's parentage to be obvious is mistaken.

Aegon was born at dragonstone. Elia would have needed to get pregnant with Jon right after Aegon's birth for him to have been born at Dragonstone before she went to King's Landing and Elia barely survived the birth, not to mention that Rhaegar left her and newborn Aegon there to hunt for Lyanna so there wouldn't even be a chance for him to be conceived. And how did Jon come to Ned Stark's care? 

Because it was true and because that was the conclusion Brandon jumped to based on what happened at the Tourney of Harrenhal shortly before. and if we are at unreliable narration, we never had a Tywin pov that could reliably confirm any involvement in Rickard and Brandon's deaths nor will we ever, as Tywin is dead. So what is supposed to support this? 

And yes, people's interpretation may have been wrong, but based on this I could argue that Ned stark is alive. 

So who was the rightful heir the king's guard was protecting at the tower of joy according to you? 

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