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Tyrion Targaryen?


if it please m'lord

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3 hours ago, hallam said:

No, the ASOIAF books make it very clear that you have to have the Targ DNA to ride. GRRM can't go back on that one. Not in this series. It would be like Star Trek Voyager firing three times the supply of photo torpedoes. He doesn't do that sort of stuff. That is what he means when he says he doesn't lie to the readers. Dragon riders must be Targ is a rule he has set.

 

Please quote chapter and verse on that because I'm pretty certain you're wrong!

Here are my quotes:

The World of Ice and Fire, p. 32 "The Targaryens were far from the most powerful dragonlords..."

The World of Ice and Fire p. 76 "Sheepstealer was eventually tamed by Nettles - a plain, baseborn, disreputable girl who fed the dragon mutton day by day until it became used to her."

So there is hope for Tyrion even as a non-Targ yet.

 

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On 5/2/2016 at 1:48 PM, The 10th Penny King said:

I'm fairly certain, NO other show characters (except Dany) have ever TOUCHED one of the dragons.  If anyone has an example, please point it out.  

I think this fact alone, is HUGELY significant.  There has been implied interaction etc, but not ON SCREEN touching, until NOW.

Also, Dany has not even touched those two since she chained them.  Yet they let a STRANGER walk up to them and touch them.  Also, the WHITE dragon offers his neck!  This type of gesture is written about in the Dance of Dragons saga - of the Dragon accepting a rider.

So, I think Tyrion touching them IS very significant.

TWO other points:

Is it just a coincidence that ALL three main characters' MOTHERS died to bring them into the world?  Are we supposed to ignore that GIANT connection?

Is it just a coincidence that ALL three main characters have had ONE great love in their life that ended badly?  AND all three have vowed to never love again?  This is another GIANT connection as well.

You can believe it or not, but they are the main characters and they are the dragon riders.  

Doreah touches Drogon in S2. Here's the proof:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70fFIhImiiw

ETA: I think it's important to note that Doreah did this while actively betraying Dany. The direwolves know when someone is dangerous to their master's but the dragons don't for Dany. Weird.

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6 hours ago, hallam said:

 

No, the ASOIAF books make it very clear that you have to have the Targ DNA to ride. GRRM can't go back on that one. Not in this series.

The books make it clear than only the Targs had Dragons in Westeros so the Westerosi did a bit of reverse logic and assumed that meant that only Targs can ride Dragons.

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On 5/2/2016 at 7:52 AM, ssls6 said:

This portion of the episode only showed me that "anyone can walk up to a chained animal and unchain it" that is if the animal senses no real threat.  I don't think it proved or disproved anything.  I do agree that the absence of foreshadowing in the TV show makes me think he is not a Targ.

 

I do find it cool that the second dragon understood what happened to the first and rolled his/her neck for Tyrion to have a better angle at the collar.

Completely agree

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On 5/2/2016 at 10:33 AM, Nami said:

Tyrion is "special" enough without the need to get a fucking dragon.

Jon is the hidden one. That's enough.

definitely. Tyrion is a Targ theory makes me really angry and the fact that it totally undermines the relationship Tyrion has with the other Lannisters. 

9 hours ago, Tadco26 said:

Some people always seem to focus on the "You are not my son" quote said after Tyrion just mortally wounded him, but completely forget what Tywin said when he sent Tyrion to be Hand of the King:
 

 

Yeee. 

This situation is basically a Nettles situation. I think GRRM gave us Nettles for that purpose. You DONT have to be a Targ in some cases, to get near or even tame a dragon. Im still not sold on Tyrion riding a dragon, but he may end up helping in some way with them.

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No.  Tyrion even asks Missandei if she has interacted with the dragons, and she says 'yes'.  Meaning that people without dragon blood absolutely have the ability to befriend a dragon.  Tyrion clearly knows more about dragons than anyone else (even Dany) and that knowledge is what is giving him the power...not his blood.

I think the secret Targ train is long gone by now, because there has been absolutely no set-up for it in the show by this point.

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4 hours ago, RhaeBee said:

Aegon was born at dragonstone. Elia would have needed to get pregnant with Jon right after Aegon's birth for him to have been born at Dragonstone before she went to King's Landing and Elia barely survived the birth, not to mention that Rhaegar left her and newborn Aegon there to hunt for Lyanna so there wouldn't even be a chance for him to be conceived. And how did Jon come to Ned Stark's care? 

Because it was true and because that was the conclusion Brandon jumped to based on what happened at the Tourney of Harrenhal shortly before. and if we are at unreliable narration, we never had a Tywin pov that could reliably confirm any involvement in Rickard and Brandon's deaths nor will we ever, as Tywin is dead. So what is supposed to support this? 

And yes, people's interpretation may have been wrong, but based on this I could argue that Ned stark is alive. 

So who was the rightful heir the king's guard was protecting at the tower of joy according to you? 

How do you know the state of her health? Were you there? All we have is a statement fourth hand from a character whose name tells us he is a red herring. Jon CON. Oh and he only appeared in the books after D&D had that dinner with GRRM so no evidence from JonCON is necessary to work out Jon's mother.

Ned picks up Jon from the ToJ after Lyanna's suicide. Ned thinks he is freeing Lyanna from them. He does not know Jon exists or the reason they guard the tower.

Where do you think Rheagar goes searching for Lyanna? They meet, that is all. She is obviously the knight of the laughing tree and Rheagar is in on the joke. That is why he made her queen of truth and beauty. She does not want to marry Robert on his terms, he agrees to help hide her.

Lyanna is taking the same role as Brienne.

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8 minutes ago, sj4iy said:

No.  Tyrion even asks Missandei if she has interacted with the dragons, and she says 'yes'.  Meaning that people without dragon blood absolutely have the ability to befriend a dragon.  Tyrion clearly knows more about dragons than anyone else (even Dany) and that knowledge is what is giving him the power...not his blood.

I think the secret Targ train is long gone by now, because there has been absolutely no set-up for it in the show by this point.

That is actually a good point. The show has cut fake Aegon and Lady Stoneheart and might well cut Tyrion's backstory for the same reason - too much duplication.

The lack of setup is not. The show does not do the same long precursors that the books do. We have only just started to get basic info on Robert's rebellion.

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Please! No Tyrion = Targ and especially him becoming a dragonrider. This is one thing i don't, ever, want it to happen in both the book and the show.

On 5/2/2016 at 3:07 AM, Newstar said:

I'm actually convinced based on 6x02 that Tyrion is NOT a secret Targ, and I'll tell you why:

1. Because Tyrion is a central character, it seems very unlikely that D&D would have him be a secret Targ in the show if he weren't one in the books, and vice versa.

2. Book canon: dragons are nice to people with Targ blood. TV canon (6x02): dragons are nice to people they view as friends. Also, dragons are very intelligent and can be reasoned with.

3. Book/TWOIAF canon: Aerys had a thing for Joanna and they may have had an affair. TV canon: no mention of any relationship between Aerys and Joanna.

4. TV Tyrion tames the dragons by using an approach based on his knowledge of dragons: reason with them (since they are intelligent) and present yourself as a friend. The dragons didn't attack him, but they don't attack Missandei, either, and Missandei is not a Targ. Tyrion is able to work with the dragons based on his knowledge, not through some special magical means.

5. TV Tyrion does not appear to be a Targ. Therefore, it is unlikely that Book Tyrion is a Targ.

This. All of this. Also like the other poster said, you don't have to be a Targ to tame a dragon like Nettles during the Dance of Dragon war.

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8 hours ago, hallam said:

No, the ASOIAF books make it very clear that you have to have the Targ DNA to ride.

No, they haven't.  Some people in the books clearly believe that, but whether it's true is ambiguous.

16 minutes ago, hallam said:

That is actually a good point. The show has cut fake Aegon and Lady Stoneheart and might well cut Tyrion's backstory for the same reason - too much duplication.

The lack of setup is not. The show does not do the same long precursors that the books do. We have only just started to get basic info on Robert's rebellion.

There's no way the show would have cut Tyrion being a Targaryen if that was in the books.

While it's absolutely true the show doesn't set things up nearly as much or as well, there was a veritable avalanche of R+L=J exposition in Season 5, a season before it will presumably be revealed.  There has yet to be the slightest indication that Aerys had anything to do with Tyrion's mother.

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2 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

No, they haven't.  Some people in the books clearly believe that, but whether it's true is ambiguous.

There's no way the show would have cut Tyrion being a Targaryen if that was in the books.

While it's absolutely true the show doesn't set things up nearly as much or as well, there was a veritable avalanche of R+L=J exposition in Season 5, a season before it will presumably be revealed.  There has yet to be the slightest indication that Aerys had anything to do with Tyrion's mother.

No way do we find out who Jon's parents are until Book 7 and season 8. And even then it is most likely we get many red herrings thrown at us.

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12 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

No, they haven't.  Some people in the books clearly believe that, but whether it's true is ambiguous.

There's no way the show would have cut Tyrion being a Targaryen if that was in the books.

 

Agree with this. Theyve gone to great lengths to show Tyrion in a very favorable light (Book readers have been claiming White Wash since S1). He is an incredibly popular character on the show and given how much love Dany is given by fans and show writers alike, there is absolutely no way, that if Tyrion was a secret Targaryen, that 6 seasons into this show, we wouldnt have seen some form of foreshadowing or even a mere mention of Aerys courting Joanna.

The ONLY question marks that have ever been raised was when Tywin on his deathbed denounces him which is hardly a conclusive DNA test.

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1 minute ago, Misnthropia said:

Agree with this. Theyve gone to great lengths to show Tyrion in a very favorable light (Book readers have been claiming White Wash since S1). He is an incredibly popular character on the show and given how much love Dany is given by fans and show writers alike, there is absolutely no way, that if Tyrion was a secret Targaryen, that 6 seasons into this show, we wouldnt have seen some form of foreshadowing or even a mere mention of Aerys courting Joanna.

The ONLY question marks that have ever been raised was when Tywin on his deathbed denounces him which is hardly a conclusive DNA test.

The show has done very little of the backstory till now. They aren't doing flashbacks. I suspect in part because they knew they would have to deal with Bran and he would be doing flashbacks.

We only heard about the Maggy the frog prophecy last season and we haven't heard the whole thing either.

I think that in the books the possibility that Tyrion is by Aerys is going to turn out to be a key point in Tywin's motivation. But that does not mean he was right.

The books also have the possibility of a trip to Valyria and finding Tyrion's uncle who might fill things in. But that doesn't necessarily work in the show.

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But they have had ample opportunities to name drop Aerys/Joanna in reference to Tyrion, by Tywin himself. Instead of "You were never my son" or whatever Tywin says, drop a "Mad Kings Bastard" or something in there.

Now that Tywin is dead, do they rely on Kevan to drop some hints? Do they rely on flashbacks from Bran? For me, theyve just passed way to many logical ways to hint at it. The maggy the frog prophecy was dropped last season because it started to make sense. Cersei started to worry. Tommen wed Maergary. It was all falling into place.

 

Same with the Lyanna/Rhaegar drops with Oberyn. They used that to really sow the seeds. Theyve done none of this with Tyrion.

If it happens in the future, ill put it down to lazy screen writing not doing it sooner, but it feels to far gone.

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1 hour ago, hallam said:

Ned picks up Jon from the ToJ after Lyanna's suicide. Ned thinks he is freeing Lyanna from them. He does not know Jon exists or the reason they guard the tower.

Lyanna is taking the same role as Brienne.

Um what?

Since when did Lyanna take her own life, and what does this have to do with the Lady of Tarth?

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Since the show has not brought up the fact the Mad King had a huge thing for Joanna Lannister (Tywin's dead wife) before she married her cousin Tywin and the fact that Joanna grew up with Aerys and his sister - wife (yes show only watchers, Rheagar, Viserys and Dany's mom and dad were brother and sister) they can do anything. Cersie and Jaime with their incest act more like Targs than Tyrion but hey, maybe all 3 are bastards so who knows?

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2 hours ago, hallam said:

How do you know the state of her health? Were you there? All we have is a statement fourth hand from a character whose name tells us he is a red herring. Jon CON. Oh and he only appeared in the books after D&D had that dinner with GRRM so no evidence from JonCON is necessary to work out Jon's mother.

Ned picks up Jon from the ToJ after Lyanna's suicide. Ned thinks he is freeing Lyanna from them. He does not know Jon exists or the reason they guard the tower.

Where do you think Rheagar goes searching for Lyanna? They meet, that is all. She is obviously the knight of the laughing tree and Rheagar is in on the joke. That is why he made her queen of truth and beauty. She does not want to marry Robert on his terms, he agrees to help hide her.

Lyanna is taking the same role as Brienne.

No, but I read the books. Did you? It comes from Oberyn, Doran, Barristan all the people who were in connection with Elia and Rhaegar. Why would Doran and Oberyn lie about their sister's help and how would it serve anybody to lie about it? You need to base these things on something. 

Oh the Tower of Joy? I thought Jon was born at Dragonstone, so how and why is he at the Tower or Joy now and why does Lyanna commit suicide? 

I still have no answer to who is the heir to the thrown the King's Guard guards at Tower of Joy according to you. Just like I still have no answer to when Jon was convinced and why his supposed mother Elia left him when she went to King's Landing or how and why Jon got to be in Ned's care. There is nothing wrong with a theory but at this point I'm not even sure there is one. You did not support a single one of your claims. 

And what on gods earth has Lyanna to do with Brienne? 

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27 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Um what?

Since when did Lyanna take her own life, and what does this have to do with the Lady of Tarth?

Lyanna and Brienne are both female knights. Obvious enough connection there. Who then is Brienne's Pod? I suggest it was Hodor.

Lyanna dies in the ToJ, that seems clear enough. But we do not know the reason. All we know for certain is the blood is real, not metaphorical. It is heavily implied that she dies in childbirth but that is not what the text actually says. 

The clues to Lyanna sacrificing herself to save the heir to the Targarean dynasty is in the fact Ned builds the tomb and the story of how lightbringer was forged.

I suspect we are all going to be disappointed by the TOJ scene next week. It will raise more questions than answers. Very unlikely we will get more than the book gave.

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