Tyrion Targaryen?

[Hol Horse]

Everyone's a secret Targ.

[Tadco26]

2 hours ago, Mourneblade said:

For those who do not feel there has been foreshadowing, you are forgetting what is staring you in the face.

 

Tywin Lanister's last words were "You are not my son!" It does not matter where you stand on this debate, but to deny that that could be foreshadowing is closing your mind based on your viewpoint.

While the show ignores logic as it suits them, it makes absolutely zero sense that Tywin would knowingly raise a bastard dwarf sired by another man as a Lannister.  For Tywin to literally mean Tyrion is not his son, would mean that is what happened.

[jobmartell]

11 hours ago, Risto said:

So people also believe Missandei is Targaryen?

Yes, because she's BR/cobra commander in disguise. 

[Mourneblade]

50 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

While the show ignores logic as it suits them, it makes absolutely zero sense that Tywin would knowingly raise a bastard dwarf sired by another man as a Lannister.  For Tywin to literally mean Tyrion is not his son, would mean that is what happened.

It is not about whether Tywin actually knew or had some doubts, it is that D&D like to club us over the head with Foreshadowing, where as GRRM's foreshadowing is subtle enough that we can debate about it for years. 

[Direwight]

It didn't really make sense to me why Tyrion wasn't eaten/roasted? It makes sense that they wouldn't eat Missandei because obviously she's "family" and she was around them for a long time. But they've never seen Tyrion before, and especially not seen him with their mother.

To be fair, we've never seen them attack anyone who was approaching them peacefully. The slaver fed to them wouldn't count since they could be smart enough to realize he was given to them to eat. But still, they were locked up specifically because they (or at least Drogon) were eating things they weren't supposed to, which to me seems to be rather at odds with the idea that simply being friendly and unthreatening is enough to allow you to walk into their lair and touch them, regardless of intelligence? I guess we can assume Tyrion is smart enough that he at least made sure that they were very well fed first.

[Tadco26]

Tyrion didn't get roasted because the writers didn't want him to get roasted.  He was basically filling in for Quentyn's role in freeing the dragons and this was the best substitute they could come up with.  I don't expect any variation of it to happen in the books.

[tallTale]

I like the idea that Tyrion is a Targ and it could still work on the show because of the flashbacks.

It would absolve him of being a kinslayer for murdering Tywin.

Basic fanboy theory:

There are 3 dragons, hence you need 3 Targs/dragon riders.

We have Dany, Jon, and Tyrion.

Of course this all comes to fruition after the wall comes tumbling down and the WWs become a serious threat to the more populated southern areas of Westeros.

[Frosta]

4 hours ago, Tadco26 said:

Tyrion didn't get roasted because the writers didn't want him to get roasted.  He was basically filling in for Quentyn's role in freeing the dragons and this was the best substitute they could come up with.  I don't expect any variation of it to happen in the books.

I think this pretty much hits the nail on the head. 

HOWEVER. I still think it serves some kind of story-telling purpose.... perhaps setting up Tyrion as the third "head" of the dragon.  Not necessarily in a mysterious way, but just because he's awesome.  One head for Ice, one head for Fire, and one head for Human Intellect that balances the fantasy with logic.

[AemonRa]

I like the Jaime/Cersei are Targs argument better than the Tyrion is a Targ argument.  I guess it is possible that all three are.

Tyrion has two different colored eyes in the books, as does Shiera Seastar, but that is tenuous at best.  Also Tyrion has VERY blonde hair.  I think the fact that Tywin says "You are not my son," isn't great evidence, though.  Martin LOVES the unreliable narrator.  I like the Aunt Lannister, whatever her name is, who says that Tyrion is much more of Tywin's son (much more like him) than Jaime ever was.  I also like the irony of Tywin hating Tyrion and wanting Jaime as his heir, when really Tyrion is his ONLY legitimate progeny.  I can also see how Tywin would be pissed that the only fruit of his loins was a dwarf.

Targs are the ones who love the incest.  I love the idea that Jaime killed his father and Tyrion killed his.  Just saying.

[robasp2]

Dragons are intelligent - this was established so they realize this tiny man is not a threat.

So I believe, no Targ. Dragons like confident people.

[AemonRa]

I don't think the show is as dead set on the "Dragon has Three Heads" prophecy... and they never introduced Aegon Targaryen, who I think makes more sense as the third head (with Jon) anyway.

[Smoke317]

Doesn't next week's episode preview say Varys "finds an answer". It could be who's behind the sons of the harpy. But what if after what he just saw with Tyrion and the dragons, he investigates to figure out a reason why Tyrion wasn't eaten. And he comes across the Aerys & Joanna rumor...?  Just guessing. 

[JonisHenryTudor]

17 hours ago, Valhalla Morghulis said:

Jon being a Targ is enough, having Tyrion seems like overkill... I'm sure if GRRM had told DD that he was one then they would have foreshadowed it earlier but as they haven't suddenly having two extra Targs lessens the impact of being a Targ and ruins the whole thing.

Yes. Jon is my favorite character, and I would have preferred him just being a Stark. Two secret Targs is too much... 

[LucifeLMartelL]

Tyrion is probably nor a Targ, but i feel he is certainly going to be a dragon rider. But the only thing still nagging me is that, Apart form Rhaegar, Viserys and Daenerys, all of Aerys's other children were born deformed and contorted ... mayhaps Tyrion is the best surviving specimen of that line up. That is why is still can't seem to break that link between him and Aerys.

Another thing i don't understand is that, why is everyone saying that two secret targs would be too much . I mean no one is super intelligent to guess anything on their own. If you arrive at something, it's because the writer wants you to read into those insinuations. and there is always a natural flow to the stories i don't see how letting the story run its course can be too conventional for some. And i don't see it fit for any writer to change his story as per the whims of his reading base.

[Danelle]

1 hour ago, Smoke317 said:

Doesn't next week's episode preview say Varys "finds an answer". It could be who's behind the sons of the harpy. But what if after what he just saw with Tyrion and the dragons, he investigates to figure out a reason why Tyrion wasn't eaten. And he comes across the Aerys & Joanna rumor...?  Just guessing. 

It does.

 

When I first read the synopsis, I almost ignored that part about Varys.

I thought that he would use his skills to resolve the issues in Meereen.

But that was before I watched the 2nd episode.

 

There is still a good chance that what Tyrion did, did not impress anyone and his knowledge of dragonlore is implied to be the reason why the dragons accepted his presence.

But it could be that the dragons reaction surprises Varys, who might tell Tyrion that there were rumours of his mother having an affair with King Aerys Targaryen.

In the books Dany's handmaiden's also interact with the dragons and they are not harmed (although I believe that Irri at some point was bitten by Viserion and Dany realised that her children were getting bigger). In the tv series, Missandei substitutes the parts of the dothraki handmaidens, and her relationship to the dragons can be compared to theirs. Let us not forget that in the books, the dragons attitude to the dothraki women is not regarded as something unusual or extraordinary. Perhaps dragons are accustomed to the presence of people who are close to their masters (I think that dogs also do that but then again I am not the owner of a dog so I cannot tell with certainty). It is the dragons reaction to Brown Ben Plumm which surprises Daenerys and he explains to her that he is related to the Targaryens. Much later, when Tyrion meets him, he immediately and correctly, assumes that the dragons liked Ben. If in the books it is implied that the dragons like people who are related to the Targaryen and in the 2nd episode (which happens to be more faithful to the books than previous episodes and also includes several book references) we see Tyrion easily approaching the dragons, then I believe that we are meant to believe that there is something about Tyrion.

 

I don't think that this scene 100% proves that Tyrion is a Targ, but it certainly reinforces the theory.

 

I am really curious about next week's episode and looking forward to Varys' reaction (or lack of).

 

 

[messem]

18 hours ago, RhaeBee said:

I dearly hope that Tyrion is not a Targaryen. I have little and less love and respect for Tyrion in the books. The show made up for that a little, because they cut some of his crap and Peter Dinklage portrays a very likable interpretation of the character and does it very well. But being a secret Targaryen would completely murder his character, his relationship with Jaime, his relationship with Tywin, it would completely murder Tywin's character and it would be absolutely ridiculously unnecessary. 

This is the standard argument against Tyrion being a Targaryen: "I don't like it because it undermines my whole interpretation of the interpersonal relationship of two characters I really like". It is a weak argument. 

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

I always liked the Tyrion Targ theory and I don't think it takes away from Tyrion/Tywin. Another hint in the show is when Tywin tells Tyrion that he had to let him bear his name, since he couldn't prove that Tyrion wasn't his. Maybe he suspected the possibility of Aerys having fathered Tyrion but had no proof.  Maybe Aerys joked about it.  Bastards are easy to prove if a woman is unwed or hasn't been sleeping with her husband during time of conception. Otherwise, it is almost impossible to prove unless the child looks nothing like either parent (e.g. different skin colour or other colouring that is unusual from the parents).  We are also told that Tywin really fears being ridiculed, because of his own father being a bit of a joke after his 2nd marriage.  In Tywin's mind it may be the lesser of 2 evils to ignore his suspicions than to have everyone know the King shagged his wife.

On the other hand... I don't believe this episode adds any more weight to the Tyrion Targ theory.  Before Tyrion goes to unchain the dragons, we are very deliberately told that:

(1) the dragons are refusing to eat 

(2) the dragons have never harmed those who are friendly to them 

(3) dragons are very intelligent

(4) Tyrion has done a lot of reading about dragons and their behaviour.  

We also see from previous episodes that when the dragons have attacked people it has either been because Dany has commanded them to or because they were hunting for food.  In fact, so far we've only seen 1 child killed in the show from Drogon hunting, which could even have been a one-off.

Because if all the points above, they don't have a reason to kill Tyrion.  They seemed to be curious about him while still displaying that they could kill him if they felt like it.  It was a bit like Androcles and the lion. They may return the favour at a later date! (Here's hoping!)

I did spend that whole section of the episode terrified that they'd do a 'Quentyn' with him though!!

I know that there are varying degrees of love/hate for Tyrion - for me he's the character I'd least want to lose from the story - but after years of being overlooked and underestimated, how awesome would it be to see him ride a dragon!

[Darksky]

The scene wasn't meant to suggest any Targ relation, they had even explained the scene before it happened with that sequence between Tyrion, Varys, Missandei and Greyworm. Dragons are intelligent creatures, they can tell friend from foe, hence they have never harmed Dany's people. They weren't subservient to Tyrion, they saw him as no threat, and once they realised he's there to release them, they let it happen. 

It's the same with direwolves. Are Sam and Jojen secret Starks because they befriended Ghost and Summer? Same with Davos, Edd and many others?

Martin, David and Dan like to give Tyrion cool scenes in their respective works. It's what it was.

[Mr. Greenhands]

On 5/2/2016 at 5:01 AM, mirthula said:

Jon is pretty much confirmed a Targ maybe he will ride Rhaeghal maybe he won't. For the longest time I thought it would be just cool if Tyrion was a Targ too then it would tie up the story all neatly, three targs three dragons, but you know what it is a little too neat. 

I like the explanation about trust between a man and a beast. Tyrion has always been fighting against odds to do great things in life. Does he need special blood or special tongue to befriend a Dragon, why can't he just be worthy of a Dragon because he is brave, strong and has a special connection with a Dragon just for who he is that has nothing to do with lineage. 

I know the ancient Valyrians were exclusive dragaon riders, and the Targs believed their control on dragons was because of their Valyrian blood so foolishly they inbred in their family to keep the bloodlines pure causing a lot of them to go insane. Maybe this myth will break and dragon riding is more than being of Valyrian descent and dragons have some free will in who they bond with. Also I don't mind Dany's ego breaking in thinking she owns these dragons and she is special because of them. 

Lastly if Tyrion was a targ it will undo the Tywin Tyion father son relationship. Tywin was a cunt if he was a targ then it will justify his ill treatment of Tyrion and I think that will be a cop out. Tywin was a bad father because he was a blind fool, who couldn't look past his prejudices, and his pride failed to recognize the best in his son, his cruelty towards his son was his downfall after all his talks about family legacy and Lannister name living on forever in the end Tywin died on the toilet because he was ignorant and like the men he hated couldn't look at the bigger picture.

The theory of Tyrion being a Targ has nothing to do with Tywin.  The story suggest the Tyrion's mother Joanna, was very close to the Mad King, Aerys Targaryen and even claimed there were rumors supporting this.

[RhaenysBee]

3 hours ago, LucifeLMartelL said:

Tyrion is probably nor a Targ, but i feel he is certainly going to be a dragon rider. But the only thing still nagging me is that, Apart form Rhaegar, Viserys and Daenerys, all of Aerys's other children were born deformed and contorted ... mayhaps Tyrion is the best surviving specimen of that line up. That is why is still can't seem to break that link between him and Aerys.

Another thing i don't understand is that, why is everyone saying that two secret targs would be too much . I mean no one is super intelligent to guess anything on their own. If you arrive at something, it's because the writer wants you to read into those insinuations. and there is always a natural flow to the stories i don't see how letting the story run its course can be too conventional for some. And i don't see it fit for any writer to change his story as per the whims of his reading base.

but wouldn't this link make Penny and any other dwarf or any other character with physical deformities eligible to be a secret Targaryen too? Why is Tyrion different in this aspect? 

And I am really not sure about that. The writer writes something the way he interpretes it and he might even think of another way or two to interprete that same thing. However, there are hundreds of thousands or maybe even more people watching/reading the story and they are all different people with different ways of perception and might as well interprete everything differently. A writer is not a genius either, he can't think of all the ways it's possible to interprete something. and even if he could, he wouldn't write a footnote about what he meant there. My point is, the writer usually means one thing and the audience will build ten theories on those same lines. Some of those will get popular and some won't, and one is most probably right. But it is not unheard of for an audience to interprete something the way the writer didn't mean that something to be interpreted. I have some writer friends who are obviously not a Grrm but it has happened that I read their short stories and asked if this or that word there meant this and this and how genius that was and they were like, No, that word doesn't mean that, it could, but that's not what I meant. And I guess that could totally be the case on the grand scale with an epic story like asoiaf too with a super intelligent writer like Grrm too. It can totally happen that we read something into the story that he never meant. I agree he wouldn't change the plot based on the whims of the audience. 

26 minutes ago, messem said:

This is the standard argument against Tyrion being a Targaryen: "I don't like it because it undermines my whole interpretation of the interpersonal relationship of two characters I really like". It is a weak argument. 

It is not a weak argument, it's not any kind of argument. At least not against him being a Targaryen, he can very well be a Targaryen and murder my interpretation of his relationship with Tywin. It's an argument why I don't want him to be a Targaryen and not why he can't be one. 

but please tell me what's a strong argument against Tyrion being a Targaryen.