Tyrion Targaryen?

[Daniel Tarly]

7 minutes ago, RhaeBee said:

I'm am really not sure about this. It's been argued in the thread before that his dwarfism might be a result of an unsuccessful abortion, but based on Tyrion's appearance he has disproportionate dwarfism.  Which is for the most part a case of achondroplasia, the cause of which is a genetic mutation. An attempt at physical or chemical abortion cannot bring about genetic malfunctions. 

Of course this is applying modern medicine on a medieval fantasy character. No, it's applying high school biology major and Wikipedia on a medieval fantasy character. But the point is, this is a story and the author can do whatever he wants regardless of its medical accuracy. And I'm not even sure what I said is correct, because I'm no doctor. 

 

Also, How what type of dwarfism Tyrion *appears* to have is irrelevant, since abortions rarely fail today, its not like they can get an actor who happened to have dwarfism because of a failed abortion....

[dbunting]

14 minutes ago, Daniel Tarly said:

 

 

This. 

Tyrion, Danaerys, and Jon all have a lot in common.

I have one question then. How will Bran fly? The 3 eyed raven told him he will fly. My assumption now is that he will ride a dragon, maybe he gets an ice dragon, or Sheepstealer? I previously thought it referenced him warging a bird and "flying", but this last episode we found out that Bran will be leaving the cave, he is not staying in there forever. It could be nothing but when Bran asked if he will walk again and he said no, but you will fly...seems pretty conclusive to me. If he was referring to his visions, then he would say yes Bran you will walk, since he does in the visions, but he doesn't say that.

[RhaenysBee]

11 minutes ago, Daniel Tarly said:

 

Also, How what type of dwarfism Tyrion *appears* to have is irrelevant, since abortions rarely fail today, its not like they can get an actor who happened to have dwarfism because of a failed abortion....

that was not my point, but yeah, what kind of dwarfism he has and what caused that is wild speculation that leads nowhere because it might just as well have nothing to do with his who is his father. 

 

[lojzelote]

11 minutes ago, dbunting said:

I have one question then. How will Bran fly? The 3 eyed raven told him he will fly. My assumption now is that he will ride a dragon, maybe he gets an ice dragon, or Sheepstealer? I previously thought it referenced him warging a bird and "flying", but this last episode we found out that Bran will be leaving the cave, he is not staying in there forever. It could be nothing but when Bran asked if he will walk again and he said no, but you will fly...seems pretty conclusive to me. If he was referring to his visions, then he would say yes Bran you will walk, since he does in the visions, but he doesn't say that.

He leaves the cave, so he can become the Lord of Winterfell instead of Rickon or Sansa. After all, Maester Luwin and Ser Rodrik had said he would make an excellent Lord of Winterfell one day.

I don't think ir makes any difference for warging. He could just as well warg into anything he wanted if he stayed in the cave. Remember, Book Arya is able to warg into Nymeria when they are on different continents. The idea that the Wall stops warging is only a fan theory, and it wouldn't mean it applies to a greenseer, anyway. (Clearly, greenseers can see what is happening behind the Wall via warging into the weirwoods, so there's no reason why their powerful magic should fail when it comes to skinchanging into animals.)

[hallam]

18 hours ago, sj4iy said:

It doesn't take a genius to 'put' the clues to a fantasy story together.  You clearly have no actual evidence to support your theory so you are insulting those who are questioning it.

1. Lyanna wasn't a knight.  No evidence, and as stated above, dressing up as a knight in a tourney doesn't make her one.

 

No, actually it does. Full stop end of story.

You move from 'there is no evidence for X' to 'therefore X cannot possibly have happened'. 

Every part of the backstory has to have a point. We are not dealing with random probabilities here. This is a constructed tale, not the result of a random walk. If your theory can't explain the point of the knight of the laughing tree or Ashara's 'suicide' then you need to rethink it. 

The laughing tree story is almost certainly there to establish that Lyanna was very accomplished with weapons. So you have to explain why GRRM wants to make that point. The most obvious conclusion is that Lyanna did something in the backstory that required her to have those skills.

There are very heavy hints that Rheagar was in on the joke and that is why he crowned Lyanna.

Now you can quite reasonably make the case that this is what really attracted Rheagar to Lyanna if you want to argue R+L = J. But the simplest explanation of that particular episode is that Lyanna did not want to marry Robert (or wanted to do so on her terms) and Rheagar helped her disappear.

[hallam]

14 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

This is extremely unlikely. There are countries where cousin marriages account for more than half of all marriages, and overall worldwide more than one in ten.

“Children of first-cousin marriages have a doubled risk of genetic disorders (although scientists contend that this is relatively small at five percent, compared with a three percent risk for children whose parents are not genetically related to each other).”

It is unreasonable to blame Tyrion’s dwarfism on cousin marriage, which is perfectly normal and common.

It is, however, not unreasonable to consider whether it might have been instead caused by an incompletely applied abortifacient administered by a disgraced Joanna desperately trying to cover up the residual spawn of the Mad King.

I have suggested the abortion theory before. There are stories of moon tea. What happens if the tea is too late or the child is too strong?

As for why she took it, I think it will turn out that Tywin tricked/forced Joanna to take it in the belief that Aerys was the father.

But that doesn't actually prove anything about Tyrion's parentage. Tywin may have been wrong. It is heavily hinted Jamie and Cersei are by Aerys.

Again we come back to the three headed dragon prophecy. Tyrion, Danny and Jon are all the third child. Rheagar and Aerys were both obsessed with the prophecy (which of course we don't know in full).

Could it be that Tywin was sterile and Aerys impregnated Joanna in an attempt to create the three heads? Remember, he knows nothing of Danny at that point. Jamie and Cersei are born 266AC after Rhaella has had two miscarriages. Why was Aerys so keen to bed Joanna?

Tywin probably knows of the prophecy as well. He might have tried to murder Tyrion in the womb to deny Aerys his third dragon head.

[dbunting]

1 hour ago, lojzelote said:

He leaves the cave, so he can become the Lord of Winterfell instead of Rickon or Sansa. After all, Maester Luwin and Ser Rodrik had said he would make an excellent Lord of Winterfell one day.

I don't think ir makes any difference for warging. He could just as well warg into anything he wanted if he stayed in the cave. Remember, Book Arya is able to warg into Nymeria when they are on different continents. The idea that the Wall stops warging is only a fan theory, and it wouldn't mean it applies to a greenseer, anyway. (Clearly, greenseers can see what is happening behind the Wall via warging into the weirwoods, so there's no reason why their powerful magic should fail when it comes to skinchanging into animals.)

I'm sorry but did you not read my post at all? I asked how will Bran fly? Maybe you quoted the wrong person?

As to warging, who said the wall stops it? Someone who didn't read the books or watch the show? Bran wargs Summer and Hodor south of the wall and sixskins wargs north of the wall.

[lojzelote]

9 minutes ago, dbunting said:

I'm sorry but did you not read my post at all? I asked how will Bran fly? Maybe you quoted the wrong person?

As to warging, who said the wall stops it? Someone who didn't read the books or watch the show? Bran wargs Summer and Hodor south of the wall and sixskins wargs north of the wall.

Nope, I was answering to you.

You said how Bran leaving the cave influenced your opinion on his future, i.e., that he won't only fly ravens now. I reacted to it saying that his leaving cave doesn't change his warging prospects in any way.

It's a common fan theory that the Wall stops magic, particularly skinchanging, the evidence being that Jon couldn't have felt Ghost when they had been on different sides of it.

But since you aren't referencing this theory, why do you think that Bran leaving the cave makes likelier the possibility he will skinchange a dragon? It's got nothing to do with it, but I got impression from your post that's what you were saying. If I got it wrong, then mea culpa.

[dbunting]

2 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

Nope, I was answering to you.

You said how Bran leaving the cave influenced your opinion on his future, i.e., that he won't only fly ravens now. I reacted to it saying that his leaving cave doesn't change his warging prospects in any way.

It's a common fan theory that the Wall stops magic, particularly skinchanging, the evidence being that Jon couldn't have felt Ghost when they had been on different sides of it.

But since you aren't referencing this theory, why do you think that Bran leaving the cave makes likelier the possibility he will skinchange a dragon? It's got nothing to do with it, but I got impression from your post that's what you were saying. If I got it wrong, then mea culpa.

Ok, no, originally I, and most readers, thought Bran would never leave the cave again, that he would be like the 3ER and grow into the tree. So the 3ER comment to Bran that he will fly was taken as in is dreams or while warging a bird, he would fly, not literally fly. Now that we know he is leaving the cave it opens it up(doesn't guarantee it) for him to literally fly, and the only thing large enough to carry him would be a dragon. 

[sj4iy]

2 hours ago, hallam said:

No, actually it does. Full stop end of story.

The fact that you even believe that Martin has written something so ingenious that 99% of people can't put together the clues is pretty astounding in and of itself.

[Nami]

On 04/05/2016 at 4:10 PM, hallam said:

 

Oh you just don't get how books like this are put together. do you? As an unseen character, Lyanna can do surprising things but only from the established repertoire of what is possible for characters of that type. So Arya and Brienne both establish possibilities for Lyanna. Denying that Lyanna was the knight of the Laughing Tree or that she could have become a knight undr Rheagar is just being obtuse.

In the books, the mechanism would be a swap of the children and a glamor spell to make Jon look Stark and (Rickard/Ned/Benjen)/Ashara's child look Targarean. It was meant to be a temporary thing but when Lyanna hears of the murder of Elia and her other children she commits suicide to keep the spell going in perpetuity and to escape from Robert who she now considers a monster.

Ned arrives inside the ToJ to find the room literally filled with blood and Lyanna dying. That explains all the circumstances of the fever dream and the reason that Ned builds the tomb for Lyanna as well as Rickard and Brandon. Ned then returns to Dawnstar with Jon. Ashara fakes her suicide and runs away with the Stark child who now looks Targ and who appears some time after as fake Aegon.

Hence Ned says to Jon, 'you are of my blood'.

The show has done away with fake Aegon and also the Mance/Rattleshirt glamor. I predicted that the lack of one would mean the lak of the other. But the show doesn't need to explain why Jon looks Stark, nor can it allow for Jon to be reborn looking Targarean.

This is also consistent with Jon's dream in which he is not a Stark.

R+L=J only provides an explanation for one part of the backstory. It does not explain anything else. R+E explains pretty much the entire backstory. The only thing missing is Rheagar's motive for concealing the birth of a third son. And  I believe that will be explained when we hear the prophecy that motivated Rheagar and Aerys. I suspect it also led Jamie to sit on the Iron throne after killing Aerys.

Wow. I rather believe Tyrion is a Targ and will ride a dragon than this R+E=J nonsense.

[Fisch]

On 5/4/2016 at 6:04 AM, Newstar said:

With all that said...GRRM made a silly comment about Tyrion flying years ago on Livejournal. If you assume that Jon, Dany and Tyrion are going to be the three dragonriders and form a trinity of sorts, it would be weird for two of them to be Targs and one of them to be a non-Targ. Mucks up the symmetry a bit, and GRRM like any writer loves his symmetry.

Two tall, one short...

Two one eye color, one two eye colors...

Two single hair color, one multi hair colors (the beard)...

Two men, one woman...

Two teens, one adult...

I think the symmetry's a little off no matter who Tyrion's parents are.

[Richard Writhen]

21 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

It is unreasonable to blame Tyrion’s dwarfism on cousin marriage, which is perfectly normal and common.

It is, however, not unreasonable to consider whether it might have been instead caused by an incompletely applied abortifacient administered by a disgraced Joanna desperately trying to cover up the residual spawn of the Mad King.

Those are my theories. You are obviously welcome to have your own.

[hallam]

9 hours ago, sj4iy said:

The fact that you even believe that Martin has written something so ingenious that 99% of people can't put together the clues is pretty astounding in and of itself.

Half the people on this board refused to believe Shireen was going to get burned in the books and Stannis is dead even after it was in the show. I was pretty sure she was going to end up on a bonfire at her father's hand the first time she appeared in the books.

Now granted, I did expect Mel to end up on a bonfire herself to resurrect Jon. But the fact she doesn't suggests that the red god of fire and the white walker are somehow connected. It is a song of ice and fire after all. Book Mel may not be so lucky because GRRM has a larger cast of red priests he could use.

[hallam]

Cousins marrying is actually very common (about 10% of marriages worldwide today) and was even more common in Europe until the Catholic church introduced a ban to fill their coffers.

The reason for the ban was to stop families keeping money in the family by marrying cousins. Which is of course a major part of the reason it is practiced today in the Middle East, Africa, etc. If the eldest son only produces daughters, the eldest is married off to the son of his sister. So the money stays in the family.

Banning marriage between cousins removed the incentive for marrying off daughters to cousins and for that matter to marry them off at all. If they did marry, control would move to her husband's family. So the ban on cousin marriages predictably led to an increase in the number of elderly widows and spinsters. And when they died? Well she might just leave the money to the church.

It wasn't an understanding of genealogy, it was greed that led to the ban.

[Smoke317]

Hallam, I thought that my theories were crackpot. If you didn't have so many posts, I'd swear you were a troll. Lol. But I totally disagree with R+E=J but you got me thinking about this Lyanna being a knight thing. Try this crackpot on for size. Let's say Lyanna did want to become a knight. I think it makes more sense then that maybe she fell in love with Arthur Dayne and let's say Rhaegar helped her become like Brienne the first female kings guard member to be close to Dayne. Now let's say Rhaegars 3rd child was actually with his best friends sister ashara. Who also happened to be his wife's best friend. So I could see Elia consenting to the hook up. This sets up Septa Lemore and Aegon being Ashara and Rhaegars son who she faked her death to go in hiding with. And Jon actually being Arthur and Lyanna's son. Thus explaining his dreams of the Sword of the Morning and Dawn being the hidden artifact in his mother's crypt. I know it's very crackpot but I kind of like it. So in my theory Lyanna was at the tower with the other kings guard doing her duty protecting Rhaegar & Ashara and fell in love with Arthur and got pregnant herself...

[sj4iy]

9 hours ago, hallam said:

Half the people on this board refused to believe Shireen was going to get burned in the books and Stannis is dead even after it was in the show. I was pretty sure she was going to end up on a bonfire at her father's hand the first time she appeared in the books.

Now granted, I did expect Mel to end up on a bonfire herself to resurrect Jon. But the fact she doesn't suggests that the red god of fire and the white walker are somehow connected. It is a song of ice and fire after all. Book Mel may not be so lucky because GRRM has a larger cast of red priests he could use.

What people believe will happen to Shireen ≠ what people believe will happen to Jon.  We've had much, much more evidence regarding Jon's past and his possible future than we've had about Shireen- because he's one of the main characters with the most POV chapters and Shireen is a tertiary character without any POV chapters who rarely gets mentioned by the POV characters around her.  Her future is a lot more fluid than Jon's, and people are going to have more wiggle room to debate.  What you have suggested about Jon's parentage just can't work.  Sorry, but it can't.  The text precludes it, the show hasn't set it up at all, and yet you demand that we pay attention because you are the only one smart enough to have worked it out and insult others for criticizing your arguments for not making any sense.

Elia was unable to bear any other children.  That's a fact that you keep trying to ignore, but the text mentions it over and over and over again.  In fact, it's part of the evidence for Rhaegar and Lyanna running off together because he believed the dragon needed three heads.  Without something, somewhere, in the books or the show to suggest that she could have, and in fact did, bear Rhaegar another child, your argument has no ground to stand upon.

 

[Woman of War]

21 minutes ago, sj4iy said:

What people believe will happen to Shireen ≠ what people believe will happen to Jon.  We've had much, much more evidence regarding Jon's past and his possible future than we've had about Shireen- because he's one of the main characters with the most POV chapters and Shireen is a tertiary character without any POV chapters who rarely gets mentioned by the POV characters around her.  Her future is a lot more fluid than Jon's, and people are going to have more wiggle room to debate.  What you have suggested about Jon's parentage just can't work.  Sorry, but it can't.  The text precludes it, the show hasn't set it up at all, and yet you demand that we pay attention because you are the only one smart enough to have worked it out and insult others for criticizing your arguments for not making any sense.

Elia was unable to bear any other children.  That's a fact that you keep trying to ignore, but the text mentions it over and over and over again.  In fact, it's part of the evidence for Rhaegar and Lyanna running off together because he believed the dragon needed three heads.  Without something, somewhere, in the books or the show to suggest that she could have, and in fact did, bear Rhaegar another child, your argument has no ground to stand upon.

 

A bit off topic but: actually I never understood why Rhaegar had to "run off" with Lyanna if he felt the need of another child as third head. He could have chosen any young and hopefully fertile woman without choosing the fiancée of another Lord. Did he need Lyanna? Did he make use of her being in love with him?

 So maybe the main reason was not that he wanted another child but that he and Lyanna simply wanted each other and another child  would have been ok on top. In that case: why was a 23 year old prince so unreasonable to run off? As unreasonable as the 14 year old girl n love. Rhaegar might have known what would happen.

Sorry but being an intellectual prince and risking war over a pretty face is just not credible, just as the story of Paris and Helena is not credible, there was a power game behind it. Yes yes, I am questioning one of the story's basic assumptions, I know. But a prince acting like a fourteen year old in love was just too dumb, anything would have been less damaging politically than "running off".

Meaning there must be more to it, I did not buy the whole story when I read it for the first time and I do not buy it now, something is off. Jon is most likely the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. But the damage could not have been bigger if Rhaegar as prince had openly forced Robert to  step back and had taken Lyanna as wife, she for sure would have agreed and Daddy Stark was the crown's subject.

[sj4iy]

Just now, Woman of War said:

A bit off topic but: actually I never understood why Rhaegar had to "run off" with Lyanna if he felt the need of another child as third head. He could have chosen any young and hopefully fertile woman without choosing the fiancée of another Lord. Did he need Lyanna? Did he make use of her being in love with him?

 So maybe the main reason was not that he wanted another child but that he and Lyanna simply wanted each other and another child  would have been ok on top. In that case: why was a 23 year old prince so unreasonable to run off? As unreasonable as the 14 year old girl n love. Rhaegar might have known what would happen.

Sorry but being an intellectual prince and risking war over a pretty face is just not credible, just as the story of Paris and Helena is not credible, there was a power game behind it. Yes yes, I am questioning one of the story's basic assumptions, I know. But a prince acting like a fourteen year old in love was just too dumb, anything would have been less damaging politically than "running off".

Meaning there must be more to it, I did not buy the whole story when I read it for the first time and I do not buy it now, something is off. Jon is most likely the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. But the damage could not have been bigger if Rhaegar as prince had openly forced Robert to  step back and had taken Lyanna as wife, she for sure would have agreed and Daddy Stark was the crown's subject.

My point isn't really to debate it (I suppose we'll find out soon enough if Rhaegar married Lyanna or not), my point is that the poster is completely disregarding the simple fact that Elia could not have another child after Aegon.  The text mentions it over and over and over again, and yet they ignore that in favor of making up a lot of other 'evidence' to support their theory.

[Woman of War]

I know this was off topic, it was more a rant about what has always bothered me: people slurp the "running off" part like strawberry milkshake because it's, sigh, romance. While the crown prince could simply have made the decision to marry this young girl because he is the crown prince. Especially if the girl happily agrees. Damage would have been minimal compared to what happened in the end. Story would have been boring  compared to what happened in the end 

...... or there is more to it, we will indeed soon know.

Forget my rant if you like.