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Davrum

How would Davos know what happened to Shireen?

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2 minutes ago, Ruhail said:

Why dont they want to burn a dead body? They're at the wall, they've seen what happens at hardhome (which seems to have been stupidly handwaved), they had an incident in season 1 though that was a little different. What does keeping his body and dying for it do? Nothing. Theres no need to keep it as evidence since Throne admitted his mutiny.

If they had the upper had, they would burn the body. But, remember, they just locked themselves in that room. 

Why did they do it? Well, as I said, they are loyalists. They hate Thorne, and I think it's pretty obvious they are willing to die if they can take him out with them. Jon's body was carried to his chambers, they confirmed there was nothing they could do for him, and then, they just waited.

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21 hours ago, Clash said:

Just gone out? The more than 600 miles from Castle Black to Winterfell? And then wander around in the snow looking for bodies, three specific bodies amongst probably thousands? More than likely buried in snow.

Yeah, he should have just done that.

Exactly. Doubtless, if Davos were to find Stannis's body intact, he would suggest to Mel to repeat her feat. But he dealt with the dead leader that was actually before him first of all.

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5 minutes ago, Ruhail said:

Why dont they want to burn a dead body? They're at the wall, they've seen what happens at hardhome (which seems to have been stupidly handwaved), they had an incident in season 1 though that was a little different. What does keeping his body and dying for it do? Nothing. Theres no need to keep it as evidence since Throne admitted his mutiny.

Well, to be fair, they didn't know that Thorne admitted to it, they weren't preset when he did.

But your point about the evidence still stands. How Jon's body was left out in the open with the "traitor" sign should have been enough of an indicator that nobody was trying to cover this up. Actually, by dragging him inside, they destroyed evidence. Not CSI-crimescene-evidence, but maybe if more brothers had actually seen with their own eyes how the LC was cowardy assassinated like that, there would have been a bigger opposition to the mutineers.

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27 minutes ago, W1NT3RF3LL said:

I think because he is just following the wishes of Stannis.  Stannis wanted Jon to leave the Wall and rule Winterfell.  Davos also knows whats happening in the North with the Whitewalkers etc.  Jon also has an army of Wildlings who are for the most part loyal to him for granting them passage through the wall. I also think that Davos sees something in Jon and is willing to fight for him.  

Stannis didn't "want" Jon to leave the Wall and rule Winterfell because he thought Jon is the bees knees, He was trying to form an alliance with the future Warden of the north.
In fact, from Davos' POV Jon was quite unwilling to cooperate with Stannis. If you think of it, he would have some reason the be angry at Jon, partly blaming him that Stannis' mission failed.

42 minutes ago, W1NT3RF3LL said:

There has to be some things taken as being implied here when we are watching the show.  Davos has been around Mel for a while now, although he may not be a devote follower of any religion he has seen some crazy things from her.  With that being said, considering he knows a Giant is at the wall, a dire wolf sleeping right beneath Jon, and all the other crap he has seen, is it that much out of the realm of possibility for him to think she could bring him back to life?

Honestly, never having actually witnessed or at least heard accounts of someone being braught back to life from credible sources, then yes, most reasonable people would absoulutely think that out of the realm of possibility, I'd say. Otherwiese he could have as well asked her to teleport the loyalists into safety or have Thorne drop dead magically when they were locked in the room the first time.

We could of course assume, that Mel at some point told him about her encounter with Thoros/Beric and Davos recalled that. But then we should have either seen that or have Davos recite it in the dialogue where he convinces her. But that would further the question why Mel couldn't just come up with the idea of reviving Jon herself instead of Davos pushing her ?

At least with Mel it was heavily hinted multiple times and quite obvious, that she saw something special in Jon, while we are left speculation about Davos' motivations and knowledge. Was her 2-episode-arc of doubting her faith really that important ?

 

I think the reason for all this is rather simple: With Stannis/Shireen dead, Davos needed another plot he can take part in and as he happened to be at castle black he was crammed into Jon's.

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I don't think Davos knows. 

But even if he did, it was ultimately Stannis' decision to burn Shireen. Mel didn't force him to do it and I don't think she lit the pyre (maybe she did -- I couldn't stand to watch that part of that episode so I'm not sure; all the child-killing is too much for me). Davos will blame the tragedy on Stannis as well as Mel...and Davos is also mature enough to realize that blame and vengeance aren't going to help anyone right now. He sees the war with the walkers coming. He knows Mel is needed. He is willing to put aside his hate for Mel and be pragmatic. I like this character development for Davos; IMO he just got a whole lot more interesting and heroic.

So Jon will have Davos and Mel as advisors, plus the Night's Watch and the Wildlings totally united behind him. He may also have Brienne, Pod and Sansa in his camp soon. That's a pretty powerful force. But will he abandon the fight against the walkers to retake Winterfell? I'm excited to watch all this unfold!!!

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Dude, Davos isn't stupid.  He saw the look of defeat and despair in Melisandre's eyes and knew that nobody was coming back from that battle.  He might not know that Melisandre had Shireen burnt at the stake, but he knows she's dead. For all he knows, Ramsay fed the survivors to his dogs.

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14 minutes ago, Rhollo said:

Stannis didn't "want" Jon to leave the Wall and rule Winterfell because he thought Jon is the bees knees, He was trying to form an alliance with the future Warden of the north.
In fact, from Davos' POV Jon was quite unwilling to cooperate with Stannis. If you think of it, he would have some reason the be angry at Jon, partly blaming him that Stannis' mission failed.

Honestly, never having actually witnessed or at least heard accounts of someone being braught back to life from credible sources, then yes, most reasonable people would absoulutely think that out of the realm of possibility, I'd say. Otherwiese he could have as well asked her to teleport the loyalists into safety or have Thorne drop dead magically when they were locked in the room the first time.

We could of course assume, that Mel at some point told him about her encounter with Thoros/Beric and Davos recalled that. But then we should have either seen that or have Davos recite it in the dialogue where he convinces her. But that would further the question why Mel couldn't just come up with the idea of reviving Jon herself instead of Davos pushing her ?

At least with Mel it was heavily hinted multiple times and quite obvious, that she saw something special in Jon, while we are left speculation about Davos' motivations and knowledge. Was her 2-episode-arc of doubting her faith really that important ?

 

I think the reason for all this is rather simple: With Stannis/Shireen dead, Davos needed another plot he can take part in and as he happened to be at castle black he was crammed into Jon's.

Obviously Stannis didn't want Jon at Winterfell for being the bees knees and it was strictly for a stronger hold on the North.  However, Davos has seen all that Jon as done there at the wall, and for all intents and purposes he allowed Stannis's army to stay at the wall before the march back south to Winterfell.  He was an ally of some sorts when Stannis arrived granted, Stannis did help the nights watch with the wildling battle, however Stannis did agree with some of what Jon did and there are many times during the show that showed Stannis looking at Jon in a way that made me feel as viewer that he saw something in him.  What that is I have no idea.  At the end of the day we don't have enough to go on corresponding to the reasons why Davos has chosen to stick by Jon in the manner that he has.  It could just be because he feels it is the right thing to do, considering Davos always speaks of loyalty and just men, he could being doing it for those reasons alone.

I don't remember in the books if resurrection was ever spoken around Davos, but I have to believe with all the other magical stuff that was spoken of about the red women and of her lord, that resurrecting someone was not that far fetched of an idea to present to her.  Yes, I think it was crucial to show her doubting her faith, considering she has been so confident about it since we first met her it would be ridiculous to show her not having a care in the world after seeing what she thought was the next AA killed in battle.

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4 minutes ago, W1NT3RF3LL said:

Obviously Stannis didn't want Jon at Winterfell for being the bees knees and it was strictly for a stronger hold on the North.  However, Davos has seen all that Jon as done there at the wall, and for all intents and purposes he allowed Stannis's army to stay at the wall before the march back south to Winterfell.  He was an ally of some sorts when Stannis arrived granted, Stannis did help the nights watch with the wildling battle, however Stannis did agree with some of what Jon did and there are many times during the show that showed Stannis looking at Jon in a way that made me feel as viewer that he saw something in him.  What that is I have no idea.  At the end of the day we don't have enough to go on corresponding to the reasons why Davos has chosen to stick by Jon in the manner that he has.  It could just be because he feels it is the right thing to do, considering Davos always speaks of loyalty and just men, he could being doing it for those reasons alone.

That's exactly the problem. It is not out of character for Davos to act that way, but it is also not really supported by anything we saw.
It looks like Davos acts that way because he has nothing better to do, which of course is not true. He could return to Dragonstone, wrap things up there, maybe assuming the role of castellan or just return home to his wife. Of course that would be quite boring, so I understand why the writers used him in Jon's plot, but it feels odd nevertheless.

4 minutes ago, W1NT3RF3LL said:

I don't remember in the books if resurrection was ever spoken around Davos, but I have to believe with all the other magical stuff that was spoken of about the red women and of her lord, that resurrecting someone was not that far fetched of an idea to present to her. 

I think it doesn't matter, what Davos might know in the books. Show and books contradict each other in so many points by now, you can't pick some detail from one canon to fill in blanks in the other.

22 minutes ago, W1NT3RF3LL said:

Yes, I think it was crucial to show her doubting her faith, considering she has been so confident about it since we first met her it would be ridiculous to show her not having a care in the world after seeing what she thought was the next AA killed in battle.

Even doubting, she could have tried to resurrect Jon out of her own motivation as some kind of desperate attempt to reassure herself of R'hollors powers and her connection with him.

 

I'm a huge Davos fan, and Liam Cunningham does a great Job portraining him, but I would have prefered if had been sidelined for this first two episodes. He felt like an intruder to a story where Edd and Mel should have been the protagonists.

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21 minutes ago, Rhollo said:

That's exactly the problem. It is not out of character for Davos to act that way, but it is also not really supported by anything we saw.
It looks like Davos acts that way because he has nothing better to do, which of course is not true. He could return to Dragonstone, wrap things up there, maybe assuming the role of castellan or just return home to his wife. Of course that would be quite boring, so I understand why the writers used him in Jon's plot, but it feels odd nevertheless.

I think it doesn't matter, what Davos might know in the books. Show and books contradict each other in so many points by now, you can't pick some detail from one canon to fill in blanks in the other.

Even doubting, she could have tried to resurrect Jon out of her own motivation as some kind of desperate attempt to reassure herself of R'hollors powers and her connection with him.

 

I'm a huge Davos fan, and Liam Cunningham does a great Job portraining him, but I would have prefered if had been sidelined for this first two episodes. He felt like an intruder to a story where Edd and Mel should have been the protagonists.

We may not have enough to go by to say with fact why he is doing what he is doing, however I think it is pretty safe to imply that there is a certain amount of respect for who Jon is, what he has done, and who is family is for Davos to want to be by his side after his king has perished.  Also, just look at the circumstances, is it really that difficult to connect the dots on why Davos is sticking by Jon, who by the way was the active Lord Commander?  He is also at the wall, you think it would be easy for him just to travel back to Dragonstone or to his wife for that matter?

Again, considering what Davos has seen first hand what Mel is capable of, I think it is safe to imply that resurrecting someone would be part of all the things that he believes she is capable of.  Considering much of what she does is in the realm of supernatural and religion based, resurrecting someone as part of their repertoire wouldn't be a far fetched idea to ask of her.  She is completely lost at this point and for all intents and purposes has given up on herself and religion, the last thing that is on her mind is resurrecting someone.

Davos was at the wall, clearly on the side of the Lord Commander Jon Snow, was the right hand man of Stannis, it would make no sense for him to not be apart of any of the events that are occurring with Jon.  Considering he knows Mel better than anyone else there.

By all means I think it was a little rushed and there should have been a lot more involved leading up to the resurrection.  Frankly, they probably should have dedicated half the show to it if not more considering how important it is to the overall story in the North and Jon's arc. Considering all of the characters were small bits with really no relevancy to what will be coming, although the dragons no longer being chained is important, other than that Jaime and Tommen, Tommen and Cersei, Arya, could have all waited.  Bran's part I had no issue with considering we needed to see where he was at this point.

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11 hours ago, Rhollo said:

But why would he protect Jon's body in the first place ?

I can kind of see that he would side with the loyalists, using his status as an "neutral outsider" to mediate the situation a bit. At least that was what we saw, although I'd say it was quite gamble on his part to rely on Thornes honour not to kill an innocent bystander, when the man has just openly comitted treason. So let's just assume, that they ended up in that room "guarding" Jon's body was a series of coincidences that played out very plot-convenient.

What I can't figure out is where Davos' sudden assumption that Mel could maybe revive dead people comes from. And it must have been a pretty sudden one, because he didn't object to Tormund ordering to building funeral pyres a few hours before IIRC.

Did he just happen to read a chapter on the Lord of Light and it's priests supposed powers in the library of CB that evening ?

I think it was always his intention to come to Mel with the request to attempt to resurrect Jon.  I also believe he felt that Jon was a man of importance, even dead.  Of course he was protecting himself and the others.  But I feel that deep down, maybe he knew what he was doing was just.  

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Davos suspected the moment Stannis ordered him away. It was why he asked to take Shireen with him. It was the first thing he asked Melisandre about when she rode into Castle Black. He's pretty much already seen two and two and doesn't need Melisandre to spell it out to come up with four. So yes, I find it odd he wasn't at least outraged with her. This was a man who was going to kill her because he felt her influence was corrupting his king. To see that proven correct, you'd think he'd at least have a few harsh words for her.

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That's definitely very baffling but I hope that we'll get some sort of explanation/closure in the next few episodes. I take it that Davos had to deal with the shit at hand first and couldn't really worry about the past events but once the dust settles he might revisit the issue of Stannis and Shiree. 

The show did a similar thing last season with Littlefinger, who's actions regarding Sansa and the Boltons were very confusing and seemingly illogical for the first few episodes. Eventually he gave a pretty decent and convincing explanations (at least in terms of the show) and I was fine with it. 

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I don't understand all the confusion.

1. Davos has no clue about the details of Shireen's or Stannis's death. How could he? Both he and Mel are practical, and neither are intentionally cruel. There's no need for her to tell Davos the details. Why would she want to hurt him, and make him more of a possible enemy? Mel left the camp after she realized it was a no-win situation after the mass desertion left them with hardly any men. Winterfell isn't Sparta or the Hot Gates. It was going to be a slaughter. Anyone with a functioning brainstem could see that.

Davos didn't want Shireen and Selyse anywhere near a battlefield, since they're dangerous places in the best of times. I don't think he thought anyone would end up like Stannis's brother-in-law on a pyre. He did however, probably think something might happen if things didn't go Stannis's way, hence trying to get at least the child out of there.

2. Why would any Baratheon deserter go 650 miles north to The Wall, when either coast, and escape to possible anonymity and freedom is closer? Don't forget, they're deserters. Being a military deserter carriers the death penalty even here in our world. No way is Davos going to hear it from them, while he's still at Castle Black, or perhaps ever for that matter.

Will he find out? Maybe. But Mel herself might be dead by then, and besides, it was Stannis who gave the okay, just like he did with his own brother-in-law on the beach.

3. Why wouldn't he ask and trust Mel? She's never lied. I'm sure he hates her methods, and believed she misled Stannis, but Stannis was a grown man, and his King, and quite capable of making his own decisions in the end. And I don't think Davos thinks she has any hidden nefarious agenda with her struggle to put Stannis on the Iron Throne. I'm sure Davos sees she believes she's doing the right thing.

Davos has seen her survive poison, and give birth to the Smoke Monster from LOST. He's traveled all over the world, so I'm sure he's spoken to other believers in R'hllor, and heard stories about the Lord of Light's power.... Even though the dragons have been gone for a few hundred years, there's still some magic in the world. Davos has seen magic first hand, up close and personal. I don't see any problem with him proposing resurrection to her. What other backup plans do they have?

 

 

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On 5/2/2016 at 0:53 AM, Pies are coming said:

I doubt Mel told him, so Davos probably thinks the obvious: The Boltons won and, logically, killed Stannis' heir. As for deserters going back to Castle Black, why? If there is someone loyal to Stannis there, they'd get executed.

Most of them were probably hunted and killed by the Bolton's outriders. Those who survived probably turned to the coast (and that's a long way), hoping to find a ship to take them back home

 

I assume Davos thinks the Boltons killed them all too. It makes the most sense.

As for deserters though, we're not talking about a dozen quitters here, we're talking about entire companies. A huge chunk of an army. A massive force of armed, trained, pissed off men, not a few straggling renegade soldiers who would be easy meat for outriders. Nobody's messing with these guys.

And it doesn't matter if not a single one of them went to Castle Black themselves. Whichever direction(s) they went they would have been stopping along the way at markets and taverns, talking to suppliers and patrons. The word gets out and the word gets around. Gossip wasn't invented in the age of the internet. Long before there was even a printed word that word got around.

There's simply zero chance what happened to Shireen is a secret in any way shape or form. The only question is how long that word takes to reach Castle Black.

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6 hours ago, Davrum said:

I assume Davos thinks the Boltons killed them all too. It makes the most sense.

As for deserters though, we're not talking about a dozen quitters here, we're talking about entire companies. A huge chunk of an army. A massive force of armed, trained, pissed off men, not a few straggling renegade soldiers who would be easy meat for outriders. Nobody's messing with these guys.

And it doesn't matter if not a single one of them went to Castle Black themselves. Whichever direction(s) they went they would have been stopping along the way at markets and taverns, talking to suppliers and patrons. The word gets out and the word gets around. Gossip wasn't invented in the age of the internet. Long before there was even a printed word that word got around.

There's simply zero chance what happened to Shireen is a secret in any way shape or form. The only question is how long that word takes to reach Castle Black.

It very much depends on how long it takes though. As winter is getting deeper and travelling north gets tougher and tougher, few (if any) will be going in that direction. Any deserters would be heading south and with each mile increasing the distance to Castle Black. If for example, it's White harbour where the story starts to circulate, that's a thousand miles by kingsroad to Castle Black.

News gets old and more recent events will take precedence, stories get embellished until the truth is obscured. I suspect Melisandre will have told Davos everything before the news ever has a chance of reaching Castle Black.

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On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 9:57 AM, dantares83 said:

It is so stupid.

If Davos really care about resurrecting, he should have gone out and look for the bodies of Stannis, Shireen and even Seylse and either give them a proper burial or ask for their resurrection instead!

instead, he is so calm about his king's death (and he is supposed to be extremely loyal to Stannis) and want to resurrect someone whom he prob does not know very well.

anyway, Davos hates magic so it is kind of surprising he would ask for that.

MAKE NO SENSE!

D&D BE DAMNED! 

I have to agree.  Honestly, the scene would have made more sense if Mel had some stupid dream that John was really AA and wants give resurrection a shot, and Davos tries to stop her from resurrecting him, but maybe Tormund gets in Davos way and Mel is able to do her magic.  Still would have been a clumsy scene, but at least I could buy it a little more.

If Davos was acting in character, he would want to burn John's body ASAP to keep him from coming back as a WW.

I think D&D assume (like most of us), that GRRM is bringing John back.  They just have no idea how.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Ross2013 said:

I have to agree.  Honestly, the scene would have made more sense if Mel had some stupid dream that John was really AA and wants give resurrection a shot, and Davos tries to stop her from resurrecting him, but maybe Tormund gets in Davos way and Mel is able to do her magic.  Still would have been a clumsy scene, but at least I could buy it a little more.

If Davos was acting in character, he would want to burn John's body ASAP to keep him from coming back as a WW.

I think D&D assume (like most of us), that GRRM is bringing John back.  They just have no idea how.

 

 

How long do you think it takes to get from Castle Black to Winterfell? It's roughly 650 miles. 

How many days ride? What shape do you think Stannis's body might be in? Did Brienne slice his head off or otherwise mutilate him in a way that might be problematic in resurrecting him?

How long before a body rots in the snow? 

I'll assume he can't be turned into a wight without a WW, and they can't come south unless the Wall comes down. But what would stop the Boltons from burning all the bodies or feeding the to the hounds? I doubt they'd leave all the corpses to eventually rot in the open and take a chance on polluting their own water table.

there are lots of reasons why Davos isn't riding south to resurrect Stannis.

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1 hour ago, ShadowKitteh said:

How long do you think it takes to get from Castle Black to Winterfell? It's roughly 650 miles.

Book or show? Based on Roose description of distances to Ramsay at Moat Cailin, it would seem that Show Westeros is about the size of South Africa (And, in any case, there are teletransportation devices laying around for those in need.)

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34 minutes ago, Pies are coming said:

Book or show? Based on Roose description of distances to Ramsay at Moat Cailin, it would seem that Show Westeros is about the size of South Africa (And, in any case, there are teletransportation devices laying around for those in need.)

Both - my point is, Davos has no idea Stannis's body still exists. And if it does, it would likely either be rotted or he would be a maggot/crow feast. Either way, past the point a resurrection would work.

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