Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

EvanSol919

Rhaegar and Lyanna weren't in love

Recommended Posts

So a bunch of people are convinced that the dragon prince and the wolf maiden had this great lovd affair but I'm not sold.

Let's look at some facts - I believe that Lyanna was our mysterious knight that Rhaegar found but there's no indication that the two spent any personal time together between then and when Lyanna was crowned Queen of Love and Beauty. Cut to roughly a year later when Lyanna was "kidnapped". First she must have already been heading south since she ended up in Dorne before Brandon rode to Kings Landing from Riverrun. My guess she was supposed to be going to Storms End although Riverrun and the Vale are other choices. Now let's keep in mind the timeline - Lyanna was 16 when she died, 15 when the war began and 14 at the tourney of Harrenhall. So it seems possible that she was infatuated with Rhaegar and might have turned to him to escape her unhappy engagement. Maybe during that year she fell in love but it wasn't that way at first. 

Now switching to the last dragon - most remember Rhaegar as a man who would have been a great king but I see something else - an obsession with the Prince that was Promised prophecy. From the House of the Undying vision, he was already looking to have another child, his third head, after Elia was advised not to get pregnant again. But why Lyanna? Well he already had a Rhaeyns and an Aegon so he needed a Visenya and who better to be the mother of the legendary warior woman than a girl who would secretly disguise herself as a knight? Also it would unite the blood of the dragon with the blood of the first men. Now Rhaegar would have had to have known that seemingly abducting the daughter of one great lord and the fiancee of another would cause a lot of problems but his obsession with the prophecy came first and it cost thousands their lives. Again, maybe he came to love he but that wasn't his original intent. Perhaps he didn't fully escape the Targaryen madness after all...

Any thoughts? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a really big stretch but following your thoughts I wonder if that was the case than if Rhaegar choose Lyanna for her lineage as well. Something in the prophecy could have led him to think he needed Stark blood to fulfill the prophecy.

 

the only thing I dislike about this theory is Lyanna's outcome. For her to have run off with a married man and not been in love with him seems like a waste. Not to mention dying giving birth to his son (if all the other R+L theories are true.) But then being abducted and raped isn't a great scenario either. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Nissa said:

This is a really big stretch but following your thoughts I wonder if that was the case than if Rhaegar choose Lyanna for her lineage as well. Something in the prophecy could have led him to think he needed Stark blood to fulfill the prophecy.

I don't think it's a stretch at all - I thought the same when I first read, though I agree it's not a popular theory.  We know that Rhaegar once thought he himself was tptwp, but later changed his mind, thinking now it was Aegon and he needs another head.  Why can't he change his mind again?

what if Rhaegar did some more reading and realized that, no, Aegon can't be tptwp because "his is the song of ice and fire" and there's nothing icy about Aegon.  Rather, a child from a stark (or at least a northern house) and Targaryen is needed.  Maybe he even read something about how this would unite two types of magic and give tptwp his power.  

17 minutes ago, Nissa said:

the only thing I dislike about this theory is Lyanna's outcome. For her to have run off with a married man and not been in love with him seems like a waste. Not to mention dying giving birth to his son (if all the other R+L theories are true.) But then being abducted and raped isn't a great scenario either. 

I think like OP says Lyanna was infatuated with Rhaegar and he probably put on a good enough show for her that she thought it was true love.  She is only 15 or whatever - she doesn't really know what it looks like if someone is really in love.  I mean plenty of people are legitimately in love with cruel abusers...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After I read about the Pact of Ice and Fire, I developed a theory that Rhaegar targeted Lyanna. I sometimes believe that after Harrenhall, Rhaegar was impressed enough by Lyanna to research more about the Starks (and perhaps even Robert) and came across the Pact from way back when. I think he and Lyanna communicated somehow and he was the one who told her about Robert and his exploits and "a man's nature". 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I never really understood why everyone was so caught up in Rhaegar and Lyanna being in love. It certainly doesnt affect R+L=J but people seem to get caught up in the idea of love

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, EvanSol919 said:

So a bunch of people are convinced that the dragon prince and the wolf maiden had this great lovd affair but I'm not sold.

Let's look at some facts - I believe that Lyanna was our mysterious knight that Rhaegar found but there's no indication that the two spent any personal time together between then and when Lyanna was crowned Queen of Love and Beauty. Cut to roughly a year later when Lyanna was "kidnapped". First she must have already been heading south since she ended up in Dorne before Brandon rode to Kings Landing from Riverrun. My guess she was supposed to be going to Storms End although Riverrun and the Vale are other choices. Now let's keep in mind the timeline - Lyanna was 16 when she died, 15 when the war began and 14 at the tourney of Harrenhall. So it seems possible that she was infatuated with Rhaegar and might have turned to him to escape her unhappy engagement. Maybe during that year she fell in love but it wasn't that way at first. 

The readers do not know how much time they spent together. That is the point. It is a plot mystery for the readers so they get the satisfaction of the reveal. She may have been impulsive and rash (wolf's blood) or it could be more than that. After all, the Prince and heir to the kingdom made a very big deal out the tourney by naming Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty over his wife and mother to his children. The love aspect is important  because it would leave open the possibility of a marriage and then Jon having a claim to the Iron Throne, whether or not he chooses to assert that claim.  Lyanna was young, but Bran wa 8 when the books started. Arya was 10. Jon was 15 when he became Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, so you shouldn't use that as a factor in this discussion.  We do not know much of anything about her, and let's be real, the prince could get her a message if he wanted too. So while I personally believe she was heading south to Riverrun,the fact that she was near Harrenhal lends to the belief that she was trying to meet him. 

3 hours ago, EvanSol919 said:

Now switching to the last dragon - most remember Rhaegar as a man who would have been a great king but I see something else - an obsession with the Prince that was Promised prophecy. From the House of the Undying vision, he was already looking to have another child, his third head, after Elia was advised not to get pregnant again. But why Lyanna? Well he already had a Rhaeyns and an Aegon so he needed a Visenya and who better to be the mother of the legendary warior woman than a girl who would secretly disguise herself as a knight? Also it would unite the blood of the dragon with the blood of the first men. Now Rhaegar would have had to have known that seemingly abducting the daughter of one great lord and the fiancee of another would cause a lot of problems but his obsession with the prophecy came first and it cost thousands their lives. Again, maybe he came to love he but that wasn't his original intent. Perhaps he didn't fully escape the Targaryen madness after all...

Any thoughts? 

Again. We do not know for sure. Selmy seems to think he loved Lyanna.  I am sure Prophecy was a factor, but love can come from a vast number of places. Remember, deep personal love does not start out as such. it starts out with attraction and infatuation. It could be  that Lyanna's  martial prowess stood in direct contrast to the delicate nature if Elia and that gave Rhaegar a woody. Eventually, that woody grew into something more. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

 It could be  that Lyanna's  martial prowess stood in direct contrast to the delicate nature if Elia and that gave Rhaegar a woody. Eventually, that woody grew into something more. 

And that's where babies come from.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I doubt the were in love at the time of her disappearance. Lust, maybe, but love no. 

 I must add-- it was mentioned in the OP that "most remember Rhaegar as being obsessed with prophecy." I think very few characters actually tie Rhaegar into prophecy obsession. I don't think he was so apparently obsessed as many like to believe. Just my 2 cents :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, dbjm said:

I never really understood why everyone was so caught up in Rhaegar and Lyanna being in love. It certainly doesnt affect R+L=J but people seem to get caught up in the idea of love

It matters if you want there to have been a consensual marriage to make Jon legitimate.  If you don't care about that, then no, it's the same end point either way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Love seem to be more of a cautionary tale in Westeros. Robb, Tyrion, Lyanna, Aegon IV, Rhaenyra, and even Aegon had their handful of trouble thanks to falling in love.

I don't think Lyanna was madly in love with Rhaegar when they eloped; neither was Dany in love with Drogo or Jon when he stole Ygritte... But they seemed to be mildly compatible, Lyanna was the tough girl with a hidden sensibility and Rhaegar was the sensible boy who appeared to be tough to the world out of duty. So maybe they did came to love each other or at least lusted each other enough. And that's how Jon came to be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't get why so many are so against the idea that they could have been in love?  (Scratch that I absolutely know the various reasons so many people want to believe they can't have loved each other. ) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I want it to be love or positive feelings because I'm tired of all the rape in the series. Plus Jon already has issues I don't need him finding out that his father raped his mother. Just imagine the crisis he's going to go through when he finds out Ned ain't his daddy and Rhaegar and Lyanna are his bio parents. We ain't go enough time to go through all his identity issues. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

I want it to be love or positive feelings because I'm tired of all the rape in the series. Plus Jon already has issues I don't need him finding out that his father raped his mother. Just imagine the crisis he's going to go through when he finds out Ned ain't his daddy and Rhaegar and Lyanna are his bio parents. We ain't go enough time to go through all his identity issues. 

There's some room between rape and love.  I think Lyanna went willingly, but she was a teenage girl being pursued by the prince of the realm who by all accounts was easy on the eyes.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/2/2016 at 8:28 PM, EvanSol919 said:

So a bunch of people are convinced that the dragon prince and the wolf maiden had this great lovd affair but I'm not sold.

Let's look at some facts - I believe that ...

Any thoughts? 

"Facts" directly into "I believe" do not good arguments make.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, dbjm said:

I never really understood why everyone was so caught up in Rhaegar and Lyanna being in love. It certainly doesnt affect R+L=J but people seem to get caught up in the idea of love

I think it's just a nicer idea than

a. yet another rape

b. 'I carefully checked your pedigree, let's breed a perfect little prophecy speciman!' 
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's how it really went down.

Lyanna was not keen on marrying Bob Baratheon, though for a long time she believed she had no choice. In Harrenhal, Lyanna, the Knight of the Laughing Tree, had an epiphany: "Eureka! I make my own choices, I can do whatever I want, even not marry Robert!". For that, she needed outside help, specifically someone who could stand up to both Lord Rickard and Lord Robert. Now, that was a tall order, and pretty much the only feasible answer was the crown prince, Rhaegar Targaryen. So she went Alys Karstark on his ass, begging for protection. Could he refuse? Well, of course he could. But didn't. Plan A was, probably, to hide the girl, and to negotiate the way out of that mess. There'd be a price to pay, but House Targaryen could afford to pay a lot. Lands, castles, offices, titles, hell, even something as prosaic, as gold - you name it, they had it. So, there you are right: Rhaegar and Lyanna weren't in love, or at least that wasn't how the whole affair started. Love/lust/sex kind of happened - just like with the Young Wolf and Jeyne Westerling.

Brandon, "the gallant fool", after hearing that his kid sister had elected to piss on the betrothal, on the family honor, was furious. He decided that the only possible way out was to challenge Rhaegar and kill him. Notice that that was pretty much the only way available for the brother of a little sister who just wouldn't listen, while the brother of a kidnapped sister would've had many other options before him, like asking the king for justice, or even calling their banners - yet the Starks did neither. Little wonder: a petition starting with "Your Grace, Lyanna doesn't listen to Lord Dad, or me, please help" would've made him a laughing stock of the entire realm. The same goes for Lord Rickard hypothetically raising his banner just because he couldn't control his teenage daughter.

So Brandon rode to the Red Keep, yelled "come out and die!". And the rest is history.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I don't get why so many are so against the idea that they could have been in love?  (Scratch that I absolutely know the various reasons so many people want to believe they can't have loved each other. ) 

Speaking only for myself - my biggest issues with the whole "in love" idea have a lot to do with the KNOWN timeline.  Not knowing where Lyanna was between the Harrenhal Tourney and Brandon being informed she was kidnapped shapes a lot of my problems with Lyanna and Rhaegar being "in love." 

My biggest problem is my hatred of "love at first sight" tropes, in general.  You can't "love" someone by sight - you can lust after them, that's fine, and normal.  But you can't really, truly "love" someone until you've AT LEAST spoken a few words with them, and even then, that's pushing it.  <= That rant isn't Lyanna/Rhaegar specific, it's a "love at first sight" trope rant in general.

My next biggest problem is Lyanna herself, specifically her age.  Now, I'm not here to say teenagers don't know/can't understand/whatever words you want to put in my mouth.  When I was 16 I was dating (and believed myself "in love" with) the man I am now married too.  Looking back, it was a lot more lust and a lot less love.  We had some on-again/off-again issues while we were still in high-school, but since then we've been together for 10 years now with very little drama.  And I love him much better than 16 y.o me did, and much deeper.  Teenage love can be fleeting (not always, but I'm the only one of my high-school friends that married a boy I "loved" in high-school and I don't doubt for a second my friends thought they truly "loved" their former dates).  BUT, regardless of societal norms of the time, Lyanna was still 16 y.o, and while I have no doubt she *lusted* after the very pretty Prince of the Realm (I mean, who wouldn't?), I don't see any evidence (YET) in the timeline we have available for it to be anything more than lust.  On both their parts.  As far as I'm concerned, "love" needs time to develop, and I don't see where (YET) they had the time to develop beyond lust between the Tourney and Brandon being informed she's gone.  AFTER she's gone, they've got plenty of time but that depends on whether she went willingly or not - if she went willingly, she may have come to love him.  If she didn't go willingly then I'm more likely to put it under Stockholm Syndrome than "love."  But before she was taken/kidnapped/whatever?  We have no indication (YET) that they ever spoke after he handed crowned her the QoLaB.  Technically, we have no evidence they spoke BEFORE he crowned her either.  So, being "in love" with a man that we have no evidence she ever even spoke to - yeah, that bothers me (see "love at first sight" rant above!).

My other problem is, again, Lyanna.  The girl who tried to explain to Ned why she didn't want to marry Robert doesn't sound, to me, like the girl who would drop everything and run off with a man who was cheating on his wife.  This one kinda fits in with the above, in that we don't know what was going on.  This one (as well as point 2) I will concede is likely to change once we have a better idea of what all the characters were doing between the Tourney and the "kidnapping" but with the information we do have at our disposal, it bugs me that she'd not appreciate Robert sleeping around but she'd happily be the "other woman" for the Prince.  Currently, it doesn't make sense to me - and until it does, it's a problem for me.

I do have many, many problems with Rhaegar, but very few of them directly relate to Lyanna specifically.  Maybe because my first instinct is "find someone your own age" which doesn't really apply in Westeros.  And "what's wrong with your wife?" is technically an easy question to answer, but the whole prophecy thing bothers me too.  I find it far less likely Rhaegar "loved" Lyanna than vice versa - I currently get the feeling he was using her, which doesn't sit well with me and makes me hope she didn't love him just to be used by him.  But again, this is an issue that hopefully will be made clearer in the next two books.

But don't assume that you understand everyone's motivations for liking or disliking something.  And keep in mind that on the forums you might have a 16 y.o girl who was treated absolutely horribly by a 20+ y.o boyfriend and for *that* reason doesn't like the Lyanna/Rhaegar pairing.  MY biggest issue with Lyanna and Rhaegar being in love has nothing to do with Lyanna/Rhaegar itself, it's an over-used trope being used that I have the biggest problem with. 

And keep in mind that a lot of the problems people have with the idea may get cleared up sometime in the next two books (or made worse).  But we aren't working with an end-game yet, there's still sooooo much we're waiting to learn.  And as I've stated a couple of times - some of *my* issues may very well go away completely once/if we're given more information about what happened between the Tourney at Harrenhal and Lyanna's "kidnapping."  But with the information presented to us in the current books I, personally, find it difficult to assume that Lyanna and Rhaegar loved each other.  I won't dismiss it entirely, but I won't automatically assume it, either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

I find it far less likely Rhaegar "loved" Lyanna than vice versa - I currently get the feeling he was using her

Let me take a crack at enlightenment.  "Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and the Seven Kingdoms paid the price", says Ser Barristan Selmy.  He was in a position to know, at an age to know.  He certainly proved his love, to me, when I read that he died with a woman's name on his lips, which GRRM has confirmed as being "Lyanna." 

35 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

if we're given more information about what happened between the Tourney at Harrenhal and Lyanna's "kidnapping."

Starting with Harrenhal, Elia attends, after being bedridden for half a year from Rhaenys' birth.  (Look at the dates for marriage of Rhaegar and Elia, and birth of Rhaenys.  Look at Rhaenys' age at death.)  Aegon was conceived, most likely after Harrnehal, proving that Rhaegar was faithful, though only "fond" of his wife.  Aegon is born during the winter that fallowed the false spring of Harrenhal, and soon after Rhaegar disappeared.  Brandon responded to Littlefinger's challenge to the betrothal announcement of Catelyn, as soon as the weather permitted him to make the journey.  Rhaegar had been on the road for months by that time, since he had disappeared before the Black Water froze and Aerys commanded fires be lit to drive the cold away.  What Rhaegar had intended to do is yet to be known, but it appears that he and Lyanna met near Harrenhal.  Lyanna had been at Winterfell when he betrothal to Robert was announced (I don't believe that we would be out of line to assume that it was near the same time as Catelyn's and Brandon's betrothal announcement.  Both would have needed the king's approval.)  So, as Brandon left for Riverrun, Lyanna is in Winterfell and possibly preparing to depart for Storm's end, for her wedding.  We know that Littlefinger was laid up for a fortnight after the duel.  We also know that Brandon begged leave from Catelyn to take care of an errand, and that he would return shortly for their wedding.  It is on his return journey to Riverrun that he receives word that has him dash off to King's Landing.  It seems that that is more than a fortnight after his duel, based upon Littlefinger being commanded out of Riverrun. 

What do we know about the two?  Rhaegar may have had the intent to go to the Wall and see Maester Aemon, and discuss things face to face.  He knows that Elia cannot have any more children, but the prophesy requires a third head for the dragon.  "There must be one more."  He had presented the crown to Lyanna at Harrenhal, out of respect for what she had done as the Knight of the Laughin Tree.  He had not thought of her, since. 

Lyanna is betrothed to a man that she cannot find attractive, because of his whoring, and likely drinking.  Her father will not let her out of it.  She even tried to get Ned to support her dropping the betrothal.  These are very powerful houses, and there is no way to nullify the betrothal short of a royal intervention.  Enter Prince Rhaegar.  She likely pleads her case with the prince, and together they work out a plan to set aside her betrothal.  Over time, they develop a strong relationship, yes love.  Marry, then run off to hiding. 

Many authors will tell you all of the stories have been told, and that only the names are changed, but the stories remain the same.  It is true, only specific traits and stories make us human readers, listeners, observers identify with the hero and cheer for his eventual victory.  These are no different, in spite of references to "tropes", etc.  ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×