Rhaegar and Lyanna weren't in love

[Rippounet]

 

Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips, Lyanna died holding a blue rose that Rhaegar had given her. That, a number of quotes from characters like Barristan, and Ned's "promise," pretty much prove that there was indeed mutual love, at least in the end.

The question is whether this love was the reason for the garland and the abduction or the consequence... Unless one believes in a "love at first sight" like story, it's better to see it as a consequence.

So the cause now... Prophecy? Not for me. I don't see any textual evidence that Rhaegar would go out of his way to try to fulfill prophecy. The fact that he saw Elia as the mother of TPtwP shows that, on the contrary, he lived his life without thinking that he really had to do anything special.
I think people misread the "There must be one more, the dragon has three heads" line. So Rhaegar wanted a third child, ok. Did he want it so badly that he would abandon his wife and abduct Lyanna Stark? Come on... What's more likely is that he was disappointed but sucked it up and went back to his usual business. Even assuming he did imagine that Lyanna could be the mother of his third child, it wasn't worth a major political conflict within the realm.

[MtnLion]

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

Even assuming he did imagine that Lyanna could be the mother of his third child, it wasn't worth a major political conflict within the realm.

Love is blind.  It may not have been immediately connected to the abduction.  It seems that the abduction might have been staged as part of the plans to annul Lyanna's betrothal, but could have blossomed from that point on. 

[TimJames]

I think Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. And I mean kidnapped in the literal sense, not "kidnapped" in the "please take me away" sense.

There's no way a daughter of a Lord Paramount would be traveling long distances without a bodyguard, and I can't see a bodyguard unit surrendering without a fight (even if ordered by their charge to). Since it is confirmed that Lyanna was taken en route, that means some of her bodyguards had to die. I don't see Lyanna being in love with Rhaegar enough to consider the death of her bodyguards a small price to pay, and I am sure that any infatuation Lyanna had for Rhaegar (which might not have extended beyond being impressed with musical ability) would have evaporated the moment he started killing her father's men.

Plus, I don't see someone raised in Stark Traditions as being selfish enough to choose someone she barley knows over her entire family (she doesn't know if her father or brothers would forgive her). Eddard never described her as being selfish or narcissistic or otherwise self-centered.

After seeing and evaluating all the evidence, my conclusion is that Lyanna was taken against her will.

Additionally I think this outcome is the preferable one, as it means Lyanna was a good person instead of a bad person. It's the same reason why this woman, who grew up being told her missing father abandoned her, discovered that he in fact died.

[Tianzi]

52 minutes ago, TimJames said:

Plus, I don't see someone raised in Stark Traditions as being selfish enough to choose someone she barley knows over her entire family (she doesn't know if her father or brothers would forgive her). Eddard never described her as being selfish or narcissistic or otherwise self-centered.

It's been established that Eddard was quite different than at least two of his siblings, being Lyanna and Brandon. And Brandon, at least, was running around taking his father's bannermen's daughters' virginities, something I really can't imagine Ned doing.

Also I think that running off with a married man against her family wishes IN THIS SERIES places her as 'not purity incarnate', not 'a bad person', especially given the scenario where she was a teenage girl blinded by love. Letting her bodyguards be killed - sure, A Bad Thing, but it's possible she tricked them, the list of people sneaking away in some sort of mess is long. And I seriously don't see how being an irresponsible teenager with a selfish streak is worse scenario than being an abduction and rape victim. I would sure wish on her the former one.

 

[Wall Flower]

24 minutes ago, TimJames said:

I think Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. And I mean kidnapped in the literal sense, not "kidnapped" in the "please take me away" sense.

There's no way a daughter of a Lord Paramount would be traveling long distances without a bodyguard, and I can't see a bodyguard unit surrendering without a fight (even if ordered by their charge to). Since it is confirmed that Lyanna was taken en route, that means some of her bodyguards had to die. I don't see Lyanna being in love with Rhaegar enough to consider the death of her bodyguards a small price to pay, and I am sure that any infatuation Lyanna had for Rhaegar (which might not have extended beyond being impressed with musical ability) would have evaporated the moment he started killing her father's men.

Plus, I don't see someone raised in Stark Traditions as being selfish enough to choose someone she barley knows over her entire family (she doesn't know if her father or brothers would forgive her). Eddard never described her as being selfish or narcissistic or otherwise self-centered.

After seeing and evaluating all the evidence, my conclusion is that Lyanna was taken against her will.

Additionally I think this outcome is the preferable one, as it means Lyanna was a good person instead of a bad person. It's the same reason why this woman, who grew up being told her missing father abandoned her, discovered that he in fact died.

There is no textual evidence at all that any Stark guards were killed as a result of Lyanna's apparent kidnapping - so I don't think that can be used to determine whether Lyanna could have loved Rhaegar. Personally, I don't think there is much evidence to support the idea of Rhaegar as Lya's rapist - Ned seems too neutral thinking about Rhaegar and downright admiring of Arthur Dayne who would have been Rhaegar's accomplice.

I really find it a distasteful idea that it would be better for Lyanna to be a brutalised rape victim than a flawed person. If I were Jon, I would certainly rather think my father a cheater (as he already does) and my parents irresponsible lovers than to think of my father as a rapist and my mother as a tragic victim of brutality.

For me, the fact that all we have is hearsay and vague hints means that we can't really get a handle on what happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna or what their relationship was really like, so it's all too easy to project our own preferences and prejudices onto the story. I certainly favour a more romantic approach and I think there are some hints of that in the text but that doesn't mean I'll turn out to be right. At the moment, we only have a few pieces of the puzzle of Rhaegar and Lyanna and there are a lot of pieces still missing.

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Princess of Dragonflies said:

After I read about the Pact of Ice and Fire, I developed a theory that Rhaegar targeted Lyanna. I sometimes believe that after Harrenhall, Rhaegar was impressed enough by Lyanna to research more about the Starks (and perhaps even Robert) and came across the Pact from way back when. I think he and Lyanna communicated somehow and he was the one who told her about Robert and his exploits and "a man's nature". 

I've had the same thought for quite a while. Mine is a little different, though. I'm thinking there was a hard reason why the PoIaF was never fulfilled, something like the Green Men told the Starks that the blood of such a union would be too powerful, capable of producing the dragon to end all dragons.

Then Rhaegar discovers this, so he kidnaps L, gets an ice-fire baby on her and was planning to burn them both, or at least the baby, in a pyre to pay for a new dragon life -- close to how Dany actually hatched her three eggs. 

[dbjm]

7 hours ago, CJ McLannister said:

It matters if you want there to have been a consensual marriage to make Jon legitimate.  If you don't care about that, then no, it's the same end point either way.

Fair point. You dont need to be legimate if you can control dragons though...

 

6 hours ago, Tianzi said:

I think it's just a nicer idea than

a. yet another rape

b. 'I carefully checked your pedigree, let's breed a perfect little prophecy speciman!' 
 

lol. 

[lancerman]

-We don't know how many times Rheagar and Lyanna met (and the context of any possible meetings) before the "abduction".

-We don't know the context of the "abduction".

-We don't know anything about Rheagar and Lyanna in their moments together post "abduction".

-We quite frankely don't know much of anything about Lyanna or Rheagar besides what other non reliable narrators have said about them.

There just isn't enough to go on either way.

[TimJames]

1 hour ago, Tianzi said:

It's been established that Eddard was quite different than at least two of his siblings, being Lyanna and Brandon. And Brandon, at least, was running around taking his father's bannermen's daughters' virginities, something I really can't imagine Ned doing.

Also I think that running off with a married man against her family wishes IN THIS SERIES places her as 'not purity incarnate', not 'a bad person', especially given the scenario where she was a teenage girl blinded by love. Letting her bodyguards be killed - sure, A Bad Thing, but it's possible she tricked them, the list of people sneaking away in some sort of mess is long. And I seriously don't see how being an irresponsible teenager with a selfish streak is worse scenario than being an abduction and rape victim. I would sure wish on her the former one.
 

Running away with a married man wouldn't make Lyanna a "normal person with flaws", it would make her a bad person. Period. Aristocrats have responsibilities, and marriage alliances can be the difference between life or death for both subjects and family members. If Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar, than she is directly responsible for unjust deaths of Brandon and Rickard and countless others. There is NO instance in which Rhaegar can cheat on his Martell Wife with an engaged Stark Girl without the outcome being very negative for everyone involved. If you know doing something might kill others (or are in a position where you have no excuse for not knowing), and you do that thing anyway then you are being criminally negligent. If your criminal negligence kills someone, then you are a bad person. End of story.

Which is worse, a father being killed in an accident or that same father running away with his secretary and spending the rest of his life pretending his wife and children don't exist? I'm not saying I'd wish suffering on anyone, I am simply saying that "it is better to suffer injustice than to commit it" (that is from Socrates, who was forced to drink poison for his beliefs). 

 

[Tianzi]

4 minutes ago, TimJames said:

Which is worse, a father being killed in an accident or that same father running away with his secretary and spending the rest of his life pretending his wife and children don't exist? I'm not saying I'd wish suffering on anyone, I am simply saying that "it is better to suffer injustice than to commit it" (that is from Socrates, who was forced to drink poison for his beliefs).

Well, if the father were killed by the mother running him over (let's not forget that in this comparison we make Jon's biological father a rapist), I'd prefer the secretary scenario

5 minutes ago, TimJames said:

Running away with a married man wouldn't make Lyanna a "normal person with flaws", it would make her a bad person. Period. Aristocrats have responsibilities, and marriage alliances can be the difference between life or death for both subjects and family members. If Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar, than she is directly responsible for unjust deaths of Brandon and Rickard and countless others. There is NO instance in which Rhaegar can cheat on his Martell Wife with an engaged Stark Girl without the outcome being very negative for everyone involved. If you know doing something might kill others (or are in a position where you have no excuse for not knowing), and you do that thing anyway then you are being criminally negligent. If your criminal negligence kills someone, then you are a bad person. End of story.

Well, a part of that is simply not true. The Starks' deaths are a direct result of Aerys being a psycho, and if someone was inclined to predict that, it was Rhaegar, not her. Sure, the negative consequences of some sort were given, but I doubt anybody could have foreseen the scale. By your logic Robb is guilty of the Red Wedding, and Robert impregnating the Florent girl is almost a mass murderer who was just lucky that her (or his wife's) relatives weren't hot-blooded enough to start a war.

1 hour ago, Wall Flower said:

There is no textual evidence at all that any Stark guards were killed as a result of Lyanna's apparent kidnapping - so I don't think that can be used to determine whether Lyanna could have loved Rhaegar. Personally, I don't think there is much evidence to support the idea of Rhaegar as Lya's rapist - Ned seems too neutral thinking about Rhaegar and downright admiring of Arthur Dayne who would have been Rhaegar's accomplice.

I really find it a distasteful idea that it would be better for Lyanna to be a brutalised rape victim than a flawed person. If I were Jon, I would certainly rather think my father a cheater (as he already does) and my parents irresponsible lovers than to think of my father as a rapist and my mother as a tragic victim of brutality.

For me, the fact that all we have is hearsay and vague hints means that we can't really get a handle on what happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna or what their relationship was really like, so it's all too easy to project our own preferences and prejudices onto the story. I certainly favour a more romantic approach and I think there are some hints of that in the text but that doesn't mean I'll turn out to be right. At the moment, we only have a few pieces of the puzzle of Rhaegar and Lyanna and there are a lot of pieces still missing.

I agree with every word of your post.
 

[IceFire125]

14 minutes ago, TimJames said:

Running away with a married man wouldn't make Lyanna a "normal person with flaws", it would make her a bad person. Period. Aristocrats have responsibilities, and marriage alliances can be the difference between life or death for both subjects and family members. If Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar, than she is directly responsible for unjust deaths of Brandon and Rickard and countless others.

"directly"???? you mean indirectly, right??

It's disingenuous to claim that Lyanna directly caused her brother and Father's deaths.  Their deaths fall at the command of the king.

Yet, I agree with the spirit of your comment.  And I acknowledged what Selmy said in Dance.  That Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it.  That because King Aegon V were not forceful in his will upon his children to not marry for love, led to his alliances with his lords weak, leading him to be desperate, and finding ways to bring forth dragons that led to the tragedy that struck in great flames at Summerhall.

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

11 hours ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

Speaking only for myself - my biggest issues with the whole "in love" idea have a lot to do with the KNOWN timeline.  Not knowing where Lyanna was between the Harrenhal Tourney and Brandon being informed she was kidnapped shapes a lot of my problems with Lyanna and Rhaegar being "in love." 

My biggest problem is my hatred of "love at first sight" tropes, in general.  You can't "love" someone by sight - you can lust after them, that's fine, and normal.  But you can't really, truly "love" someone until you've AT LEAST spoken a few words with them, and even then, that's pushing it.  <= That rant isn't Lyanna/Rhaegar specific, it's a "love at first sight" trope rant in general.

My next biggest problem is Lyanna herself, specifically her age.  Now, I'm not here to say teenagers don't know/can't understand/whatever words you want to put in my mouth.  When I was 16 I was dating (and believed myself "in love" with) the man I am now married too.  Looking back, it was a lot more lust and a lot less love.  We had some on-again/off-again issues while we were still in high-school, but since then we've been together for 10 years now with very little drama.  And I love him much better than 16 y.o me did, and much deeper.  Teenage love can be fleeting (not always, but I'm the only one of my high-school friends that married a boy I "loved" in high-school and I don't doubt for a second my friends thought they truly "loved" their former dates).  BUT, regardless of societal norms of the time, Lyanna was still 16 y.o, and while I have no doubt she *lusted* after the very pretty Prince of the Realm (I mean, who wouldn't?), I don't see any evidence (YET) in the timeline we have available for it to be anything more than lust.  On both their parts.  As far as I'm concerned, "love" needs time to develop, and I don't see where (YET) they had the time to develop beyond lust between the Tourney and Brandon being informed she's gone.  AFTER she's gone, they've got plenty of time but that depends on whether she went willingly or not - if she went willingly, she may have come to love him.  If she didn't go willingly then I'm more likely to put it under Stockholm Syndrome than "love."  But before she was taken/kidnapped/whatever?  We have no indication (YET) that they ever spoke after he handed crowned her the QoLaB.  Technically, we have no evidence they spoke BEFORE he crowned her either.  So, being "in love" with a man that we have no evidence she ever even spoke to - yeah, that bothers me (see "love at first sight" rant above!).

My other problem is, again, Lyanna.  The girl who tried to explain to Ned why she didn't want to marry Robert doesn't sound, to me, like the girl who would drop everything and run off with a man who was cheating on his wife.  This one kinda fits in with the above, in that we don't know what was going on.  This one (as well as point 2) I will concede is likely to change once we have a better idea of what all the characters were doing between the Tourney and the "kidnapping" but with the information we do have at our disposal, it bugs me that she'd not appreciate Robert sleeping around but she'd happily be the "other woman" for the Prince.  Currently, it doesn't make sense to me - and until it does, it's a problem for me.

I do have many, many problems with Rhaegar, but very few of them directly relate to Lyanna specifically.  Maybe because my first instinct is "find someone your own age" which doesn't really apply in Westeros.  And "what's wrong with your wife?" is technically an easy question to answer, but the whole prophecy thing bothers me too.  I find it far less likely Rhaegar "loved" Lyanna than vice versa - I currently get the feeling he was using her, which doesn't sit well with me and makes me hope she didn't love him just to be used by him.  But again, this is an issue that hopefully will be made clearer in the next two books.

But don't assume that you understand everyone's motivations for liking or disliking something.  And keep in mind that on the forums you might have a 16 y.o girl who was treated absolutely horribly by a 20+ y.o boyfriend and for *that* reason doesn't like the Lyanna/Rhaegar pairing.  MY biggest issue with Lyanna and Rhaegar being in love has nothing to do with Lyanna/Rhaegar itself, it's an over-used trope being used that I have the biggest problem with. 

And keep in mind that a lot of the problems people have with the idea may get cleared up sometime in the next two books (or made worse).  But we aren't working with an end-game yet, there's still sooooo much we're waiting to learn.  And as I've stated a couple of times - some of *my* issues may very well go away completely once/if we're given more information about what happened between the Tourney at Harrenhal and Lyanna's "kidnapping."  But with the information presented to us in the current books I, personally, find it difficult to assume that Lyanna and Rhaegar loved each other.  I won't dismiss it entirely, but I won't automatically assume it, either.

Yup! You pretty much just confirmed my assertion that I do know why so many have a problem with them being in love. Sure there are a few other reasons people tend to give. But this right here sums up a large proportion of it. 

I have a real problem with the patronising, sanctimonious, and patriarchal insistence that Love is only one particular thing and that any form of relationship which does not fit into that very small mould of what the - sanctioned as suitable idea; of what love is. Absolutely can not be love. 

It pisses me off on so many levels. Suffice to say. No. You do not get to dictate to anyone else if what they feel for someone is love or not, no matter if that person is 16 or 60. 

Love can be scientifically taken to pieces, it is basically a cocktail of hormones. The thrilling attraction part of love is still love. yes lust comes into it, but to dictate that the only "real" form of love is the secondary stage, the bonded Oxytocin driven stage; is BS.  Without the first, what you are left with is not romantic love it is friendship. 

Sometimes you meet a person and feel instantly attracted. Sometimes you know a person for years and gradually become attracted. Sometimes you have all the besotted dopamine driven first stage stuff but don't feel sexual desire. But you don't get to dictate which of these scenario's constitutes love for another person. 

Now as to the story, When we read without relying on our own personal feelings, experiences and beliefs. We see a much clearer picture of the story. The author has placed several clues in the story to hint it was love. Though it is far from certain. But we also know the author is a self confessed romantic. And that he uses many folk tale references in his writing. And I'm afraid to inform you that Love at first sight is a HUGE folk tale trope. Like one of the biggest and most common. 

And there are love at first sight references in the Rhaegar and Lyanna story as we know it.   Not that I'm suggesting he really would make it that they fell in love at first sight and that was that. But that what happened will be easily able to be made into a "love at first site story" by the singers. 

What if after during the Tourney they interacted more than we have been told about, in private. And began to flirt, they like each other. There is attraction, and they find they get along well. 

But nothing happens right away. Then say they correspond over the intervening period and find that they have a LOT of common ground. They form a relationship via letters.  And still they each recall how they liked the others eyes, smile, smell, the sound of their laughter. Or the beautiful songs that the other sang. Absence makes the heart grow fonder. And Lyanna comes to realise she truly can not marry Robert.  And simultaneously Rhaegar gets news Elia will never be able to bring him another child.  Each mourns their fate, a loveless unhappy marriage, the failure to fulfil the prophesy. One day, a letter comes and one has finally declared their love. Idea's happen, hey what if we marry? in secret!. My family has a history of polygamy. It hasn't ever been truly outlawed. I have a good reason for it too. My wife.... Yes! it might just work. And so a plan is hatched and the rest as they say is history.  

This is just one scenario I can see happening. But it is imo most in line with the story. 

To dismiss the idea they could love each other simply because your own ideas of what love is do not fit with their situation, is ignorant and smacks of sanctimonious, control driven BS. 

 

 

 

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

9 hours ago, TimJames said:

I think Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. And I mean kidnapped in the literal sense, not "kidnapped" in the "please take me away" sense.

There's no way a daughter of a Lord Paramount would be traveling long distances without a bodyguard, and I can't see a bodyguard unit surrendering without a fight (even if ordered by their charge to). Since it is confirmed that Lyanna was taken en route, that means some of her bodyguards had to die.

Flawlessly reasoned.

Remind me, if you will, how many of Tyrion's men were killed at the Crossroads Inn?

[redtree]

1. I think they loved each other (the tower was named TOJ). Though i'm not sure if it was the kind of lasting love or the love that will fade after 2 years (or 6 months with many teenagers) when there's no more mystery and people's true color surface
2. Whether they were selfish or hypocrite or cruel or decent is another thing

[Mayura]

Ned is far too "chilled" about Rhaegar for him to have abducted and raped his sister, imo... 

I don't know why the idea of two young persons who have never been in love before falling for each other is so hard to believe. Rhaegar was 20 years old when he was married to Elia Martell and books sources say that Rhaegar was fond of Elia but that's about it. Rhaegar did his duty as a Prince: he consummated the wedding and produced children. I don't think it was ever mentioned in the books that Rhaegar had any adventures or loved anyone except for Lyanna. Lyanna, on the other side, seems to be the "Arya" type: she probably didn't care much about boys and it is a sure thing she didn't want to marry Big Bobby. 

So we have two young persons who have seemingly never been in love with anyone else. And then, they meet at Harrenhal. It's maybe the first time Rhaegar meets a girl who isn't acting like "a lady" as such and who is probably not trying to seduce him. He is seduced by her straightforward behavior and he respects her. On the other side, Lyanna meets a man who respects her and respects her unconventional ideas and her boldness. It doesn't seem too far stretched to me to think they might have fallen in love with each other and even maybe fallen in love for the first time. 

My guts feeling is that their little eloping was indeed madness but they both wanted it. And that they both did it because they were both young, in love, and probably didn't foresee their passion would cause so much havoc. Then they had to deal with the consequences. 

 

[desire]

Prophecy V.s love round how many Posts does R+L = Jon? 

[zandru]

Just a few odds & ends:

Some of you have made a big deal of Lyanna being a mere child (or foolish teenager) of 16. Westeros ain't 21st century America. Sixteen makes a dude a "man grown", ready and capable of taking on all of a man's responsibilities. A girl becomes a woman at first menses - 12 or 13. (Sidenote: I predict Arya will be older than that, 14 or 15 or so, because she's so lean and athletic.) And girls, returning to the topic, have also been in training for "womanhood" for many years before they reach 12. Children in Westeros are on an accelerated track, compared to the US. They're taught the responsibilities of adults, and GIVEN the responsibilities of adults, at much earlier ages than we are even capable of imagining. This, in fact, is how it's been through most of human history. So Lyanna would have been no "teeny-bopper."

Wall Flower rightly warns against "projecting our own preferences and prejudices." This goes for the "is Lyanna a 'bad person'" meme, as well as for the "teenager" trope. Robert Baratheon was not considered "bad", although he whored, drank, and took his greatest pleasure in killing, whether man or beast. Women probably get less slack, but I suspect that the responsibility, the "agency" as it were, would be attributed to Rhaegar, not Lyanna - and, if not for Robert's rage, might have passed unremarked, except for the inevitable smirks.

Moreover, what if Rhaegar and Lyanna married, in formal Westerosi matrimony? Targaryeons get to do that, marrying multiple wives and even siblings. So it wouldn't be anything at all like "running away with the office manager" (er, "secretary" if you want to go all 20th century). It could have been viewed as legitimate. Maybe the crow announcing the happy event ended up in a pot'o brown. And, as we know, history is written by the victors. Worse yet, in Westeros, history is apparently "written" by "the singers", who gladly sacrifice accuracy and detail for a good story, a welcome to the halls of said victors, and plenty of the ol' romance & chivalry.

[Rob Storm]

20 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

The readers do not know how much time they spent together. That is the point. It is a plot mystery for the readers so they get the satisfaction of the reveal. She may have been impulsive and rash (wolf's blood) or it could be more than that. After all, the Prince and heir to the kingdom made a very big deal out the tourney by naming Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty over his wife and mother to his children. The love aspect is important  because it would leave open the possibility of a marriage and then Jon having a claim to the Iron Throne, whether or not he chooses to assert that claim.  

 

I don't disagree but I have also been of the mind that if he needed a northerner to fulfill the "Ice" portion of the prophecy that he needed to claim his "wife" in the proper northern tradition of stealing her...Bael the Bard style  

I personally think R&L had a strong connection perhaps Love but that he conducted the "marriage" by northern tradition, by taking her.  

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I really hope that they were not in love or at least that Lyanna was infatuated with him and not in love with him. However from what I have seen so far only Rhaegar's and Lyanna's fans cannot except the possibility of them not being in love, when people who don't really care about them can see that there is a possibility.

[OuttaOldtown]

I don't believe its all about love either, I also don't believe she was raped. I have a theory that the prophecy of TPtwP is hidden in a song we have never heard, and Rhaegar saw the signs at the Tourney. Interesting that another man who was singer also 'abducted' a Stark girl, Bael the Bard, we even have the winter roses connection with the two. The Dragon & Weirwood..