Rhaegar and Lyanna weren't in love

[Targaryen Restoration]

Ill-advised or not, if a third child was needed he would have tried again with Elia.  Lyanna is a poor choice to mother the third head.  His work would be a poor approximation of Rhaenys, Aegon, and Visenya if the third head had a different mother from the first two.   The child would be bastard.

I don't think Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna.  He wanted to disrupt Rickard Stark's southern ambitions plot and the best way to do that is to break the engagement between Lyanna and Robert.  Seducing Lyanna was dangerous but confronting Rickard and Robert directly would be more so.  Those two were already committing treason by the fact they were plotting against the Targaryens.  By rights, the Starks and the Baratheons should have been Castamered but Winterfell is too far.  Rhaegar tried to cock block Robert instead but hothead Brandon escalated it when he threatened Rhaegar's life and his family.  Aerys was crazy but no king could allow Brandon to live after making such threats publicly.  I would have flayed Brandon in public for attempted murder of a member of the royal family.

[fire&blood]

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 5:56 PM, Wall Flower said:

There is no textual evidence at all that any Stark guards were killed as a result of Lyanna's apparent kidnapping - so I don't think that can be used to determine whether Lyanna could have loved Rhaegar. Personally, I don't think there is much evidence to support the idea of Rhaegar as Lya's rapist - Ned seems too neutral thinking about Rhaegar and downright admiring of Arthur Dayne who would have been Rhaegar's accomplice.

I really find it a distasteful idea that it would be better for Lyanna to be a brutalised rape victim than a flawed person. If I were Jon, I would certainly rather think my father a cheater (as he already does) and my parents irresponsible lovers than to think of my father as a rapist and my mother as a tragic victim of brutality.

For me, the fact that all we have is hearsay and vague hints means that we can't really get a handle on what happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna or what their relationship was really like, so it's all too easy to project our own preferences and prejudices onto the story. I certainly favour a more romantic approach and I think there are some hints of that in the text but that doesn't mean I'll turn out to be right. At the moment, we only have a few pieces of the puzzle of Rhaegar and Lyanna and there are a lot of pieces still missing.

[Tralalala]

On 3.05.2016 г. at 5:28 AM, EvanSol919 said:

Any thoughts? 

Yes screw Lyanna Stark. Lord Rickard was too soft on her in my opinion,would she escape if Tywin was her father,or old Walder Frey? I don't think so,but again that man wasn't smart/forceful enough in regards to how his children were raised just look at Brandon the air balloon and Eddard the fool. Anyways i don't think anyone even the author has an idea where she's been when kidnapped or some such,probably hasn't thought it out yet,if she was going to storm's end why such a small escort? That they can be taken over by the prince and his cronies from the vaunted kingsguard.

[Buried Treasure]

24 minutes ago, prcxfo said:

Yes screw Lyanna Stark. Lord Rickard was too soft on her in my opinion,would she escape if Tywin was her father,or old Walder Frey? I don't think so,but again that man wasn't smart/forceful enough in regards to how his children were raised just look at Brandon the air balloon and Eddard the fool. Anyways i don't think anyone even the author has an idea where she's been when kidnapped or some such,probably hasn't thought it out yet,if she was going to storm's end why such a small escort? That they can be taken over by the prince and his cronies from the vaunted kingsguard.

Tywin - that's your example of a parent in control of his children? The guy who had one child disappear for two weeks after marrying a peasant chance met on the road, and whose other children were engaged in an incestous affair by age 16? You set a low bar, and Rickard Stark clears it well. 

 

As for the size of Lyanna's escort, a small guard is enough to see off brigands in peacetime, and her family name would be enough to protect her from attack from any other lordlings. Just as Rhaegar's name meant 10 men or 200 would not have stopped him riding away with her. If you had bothered to read the rest of the discussion thread you would see I addressed this point a year ago - Rhaegar would only have to bare an inch of steel and Stark men would have to back down because to harm the Crown Prince would be treason.

[Tralalala]

Just now, Buried Treasure said:

Tywin - that's your example of a parent in control of his children? The guy who had one child disappear for two weeks after marrying a peasant chance met on the road, and whose other children were engaged in an incestous affair by age 16? You set a low bar, and Rickard Karstark clears it well. 

 

As for the size of Lyanna's escort, a small guard is enough to see off brigands in peacetime, and her family name would be enough to protect her from attack from any other lordlings. Just as Rhaegar's name meant 10 men or 200 would not have stopped him riding away with her. If you had bothered to read the rest of the discussion thread you would see I addressed this point a year ago - Rhaegar would only have to bare an inch of steel and Stark men would have to back down because to harm the Crown Prince would be treason.

And how was said son punished? But you do make a point,Tywin was more controlling in any case even if things didn't turned out that well.

Anyway i disagree about the escort a larger escort would have Rhaegar and his kingsguard retreat. If she had 20-30 escort still managable and large enough. Those aren't kingsguard sworn not to harm the targaryens those would be soldiers sworn to house stark and given strict orders what to do and what not to allow.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 10/3/2017 at 3:09 AM, Damon_Tor said:

Starks are genetically predisposed toward being controlled by CotF.

Do you have any actual text proof about this one?

And how was said son punished? But you do make a point,Tywin was more controlling in any case even if things didn't turned out that well.

Do you understand that Tywin was abusing Tyrion?

[Tralalala]

3 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Do you understand that Tywin was abusing Tyrion?

I do and  still like Tywin over Tyrion anyday..

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Tralalala said:

I do and  still like Tywin over Tyrion anyday..

/yuck emoticon/ The guy who hated his baby son and crippled him emotionally as he grew up? Why?

[Tralalala]

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

/yuck emoticon/ The guy who hated his baby son and crippled him emotionally as he grew up? Why?

Same reason people like Jon SNow,Ned Stark and anyone else really,just because they do/can aka no reason... 

To be honest if i was in Tywin's place,i would have let Tyrion die as a child the same day he was born.

[devilish]

I don’t think that love had anything to do with it. Rhaegar was obsessed with his prophecy. Lyanna on the other hand, saw him as a way to avoid marrying Robert.

There might have been a bit of infatuation going on from Lyanna’s part but that was it. Rhaegar was the most charming man in Westeros who could sweep Cersei off her feet. Now imagine, the effect such charming man would have, over this wild girl who grew up in the cold wasteland were brutes like Brandon, Robert and the Greatjon were often celebrated as great men.

Immaturity played a big part in the disaster to follow but the main protagonist of it all was ignorance. As a Targ, Rhaegar had no idea of how much the Starks value honour. He probably thought that they would settle to Lyanna being appointed as Queen and a role in the small council. That was the dream scenario of every Southern Lord who used to bend over backwards for such honour. Lyanna and Brandon didn’t knew how mad her bf’s father was. No sane man would kill the Warden of the North, his heir and order the death of his other heir + the LP of the Stormlands over some childish act, Brandon had done before at least once (against LF) and got away with.
 

 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

17 hours ago, Tralalala said:

I do and  still like Tywin over Tyrion anyday..

Me too but that doesn't mean that the fact that he abused Tyrion since birth doesn't prove that he was one of the worst parents in ASOIAF.

[Tralalala]

6 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Me too but that doesn't mean that the fact that he abused Tyrion since birth doesn't prove that he was one of the worst parents in ASOIAF.

Then we have different definitions of a good parent/parenting,to me tywin is a good parent.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 4/4/2017 at 11:40 PM, Tralalala said:

Then we have different definitions of a good parent/parenting,to me tywin is a good parent.

An abusive parent is a good parent? 

[Tralalala]

Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

An abusive parent is a good parent? 

For me what he did was a lesson not abuse,besides every material need is taken care of so big deal that Tywin is always nagging,and to be fair Tyrion should consider himself lucky that he lived past his birth at all,besides that Tyrion has all his fingers,isn't beaten regularly and something like that or even nastier,so yes Tywin is a good parent,in my opinion of course feel free to disagree...

[Jon's Queen Consort]

19 minutes ago, Tralalala said:

For me what he did was a lesson not abuse,

Making your son to rape someone is abuse. Even without it Tywin was abusing Tyrion his whole life.

19 minutes ago, Tralalala said:

and to be fair Tyrion should consider himself lucky that he lived past his birth at all

That doesn't mean that Tywin was abusing Tyrion. After all Tywin didn't left him alive because he was kind. It was because not even Tywin would had been able to be a kinslayer.

19 minutes ago, Tralalala said:

,so yes Tywin is a good parent,in my opinion of course feel free to disagree...

My opinion is that  this is utter   Tell that an abusive parent who give food to his children is a good parent to people who had suffered from parents like that.  

I don't think Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna.  He wanted to disrupt Rickard Stark's southern ambitions plot and the best way to do that is to break the engagement between Lyanna and Robert.  Seducing Lyanna was dangerous but confronting Rickard and Robert directly would be more so.  Those two were already committing treason by the fact they were plotting against the Targaryens.  By rights, the Starks and the Baratheons should have been Castamered but Winterfell is too far.  Rhaegar tried to cock block Robert instead but hothead Brandon escalated it when he threatened Rhaegar's life and his family.  Aerys was crazy but no king could allow Brandon to live after making such threats publicly.  I would have flayed Brandon in public for attempted murder of a member of the royal family.

Fan fictions are not allowed here.

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

11 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Fan fictions are not allowed here.

But, but......
What are we to do until the next book will be released?

[Tralalala]

1 minute ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Making your son to rape someone is abuse. Even without it Tywin was abusing Tyrion his whole life.

Lying to your child to make him do something isn't a good action,but not something you wont live past.

3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

That doesn't mean that Tywin was abusing Tyrion. After all Tywin didn't left him alive because he was kind. It was because not even Tywin would had been able to be a kinslayer.

Kinslayer? So the child dies from cold and Tywin is somehow a kinslayer? The point i'm making is that Tywin didn't want Tyrion dead then,because otherwise how hard would it be for a newborn to die and have the wetnurse/server take blame,with only himself knowing the truth?

6 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

My opinion is that  this is utter   Tell that an abusive parent who give food to his children is a good parent to people who had suffered from parents like that.  

So every material need is only food? What about clothing,shelter,prestige,money? I can and will tell it,why shouldn't it? They have suffered not me i can talk about it as freely as everyone talks about everything.

Let's end this once and for all,it's obvious you have a different definition of abuse than i have,and i will never change your view on the matter no more than you will change mine.

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

6 minutes ago, Tralalala said:

Lying to your child to make him do something isn't a good action,but not something you wont live past.

But performing a gang rape, and forcing your son to participate to enforce your lie, that's quite a difference. If he only told the lie, had the marriage annulled and banned Tyrions love, I might have had less problems with it. But this is just abuse, bullying and mental and physical torture.
Tywin hasn't been a good parent, to none of his children. He neglected Cercei because she was a woman, he adored Jaime, but ignored the fact that Jaime simply acts without thinking whatsoever, and simply rejects Tyrion for being a dwarf.

How can you even consider a parent like that to be a decent father? That's like saying Saddam Hussein  was a good ruler in Iraq (avoiding the available Godwin here).

[Tralalala]

Just now, Ser Walter of AShwood said:

But performing a gang rape, and forcing your son to participate to enforce your lie, that's quite a difference.
Tywin hasn't been a good parent, to none of his children. He neglected Cercei because she was a woman, he adored Jaime, but ignored the fact that Jaime simply acts without thinking whatsoever, and simply rejects Tyrion for being a dwarf.

How can you even consider a parent like that to be a decent father? That's like saying Saddam Hussein  was a good ruler in Iraq (avoiding the available Godwin here).

Your opinion,not mine,btw Saddam was 1000 times better than what amerika's jackboot diplomacy left, i don't know any godwin...

And every person is perfectly unbiased about everyone around them? As i said feel free to disagree,but to me Tywin is a good parent.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, Tralalala said:

Let's end this once and for all,it's obvious you have a different definition of abuse than i have,and i will never change your view on the matter no more than you will change mine.

I am sorry but abuse isn't something objective and is not up for personal opinion. Now if you wish to believe that abuse is ok because Tywin didn't let him die but make his life miserable and forced him to rape someone with the excuse “it was just a lesson” that’s ok. But please go to someone who had suffered from parents like that and tell them what you believe and then please tell me what they had told you.

4 minutes ago, Ser Walter of AShwood said:

he adored Jaime, but ignored the fact that Jaime simply acts without thinking whatsoever,

Actually I believe that he just wanted for Jaime to be the way he wanted to be.

14 minutes ago, Ser Walter of AShwood said:

But, but......
What are we to do until the next book will be released?

Maybe just reread the books?  In order to find out what is in them and what isn't.