Disappointing Revival?

[Hackforth]

Was anyone else really disappointed by Jon's revival?

I guess I was kind of expecting a little more pomp and circumstance.  I wanted to see them try to burn his body on a pyre, only to have his body absorb the flames instead of be consumed by them.  I wanted a battle to rage outside the door, with his friends expecting a quick death by his side, only to have him rise and put an end to the fighting.  I wanted Melissandre to breath fire into him, or I wanted pulses of light and heat to come from her hands as they touched his body.  I wanted some kind of visible sign that he was Azor Ahai, rather than just another guy (like Dondarrion) brought back to life by a Red Priest.

Do you think it will be this subtle in the books, too?  I sure hope not.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Not really. I personally think the entire scene is RH. The expectation is that Mel succeeded, but I think the scan of Ghost before Jon's arrival suggests something different. Elsewhere people have suggested Bran or BR intervened. 

 

In the books. I don't believe Jon needs a resurrection. He has some minor wounds and that is all.

[Crixus]

There should have been some element of cost or sacrifice to it: Mel dying or withering into her real self... something! 

Perhaps they'll address this later? 

[TheKitttenGuard]

I enjoyed the low key nature of the event.  That it had a focus on Ghost in the end was nice.

A wash, a hair cut , a trim, and a rinse over Valeyrian as anti-climatic you can have.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I really liked that it was quiet and in the background and nobody saw it. Anything more dramatic and it would have been like the second coming of Jesus.

Wasn't quite so keen on the events leading up to it however, seemed pretty rushed.

[II_CHIEF]

Very disappointed.

But not because of the lack of 'wow' factor in the scene itself, more the events leading up to this scene.

I.e. Davos seeking out Mel for the revive...why!? It was just weak story telling and didn't make any sense to me.

[Attitude]

23 minutes ago, II_CHIEF said:

Very disappointed.

But not because of the lack of 'wow' factor in the scene itself, more the events leading up to this scene.

I.e. Davos seeking out Mel for the revive...why!? It was just weak story telling and didn't make any sense to me.

Agreed, it should've been a Melisandre only moment. Some flashbacks to Thoros of Myr, a realisation that not Stannis but Jon was the one she saw in the flames, and after that a attempted revival.

However, if the speculation of others is true (BR/Bran reviving Jon), it fits that she seemed to fail.

[Balerion the one eared cat]

I agree, the whole scene was predictable and anticlimatic. Firstly I'm still bemused why Davos is so invested in Jon and trusting of Mel. Everyone's said it a million times, but she brought about the death of they guy that raised him up from nothing, the sweet little girl he essentially adopted and Selyse who was Mel's most ardent follower. Why on earth would he trust her, and why on earth would he care about Jon being brought back?

Also, it's annoyed me immensely that there doesn't seem to have been any cost to the ressurection. They've emphasised incessantly throughout the show that any form of real magic demands a sacrifice - only death can pay for life. Kingsblood, leeches, burnings, nothing? They killed Shireen to get rid of a snow flurry (oh, yeah, where the hell is this winter that's supposedly arrived?! I'll save that for another thread...) but bringing someone back from the dead just needs a clean shave and a nice bath? Anyone care to explain where this "power" has come from? Especially since they've been trying to show us the last few episodes how completely disconnected Mel feels from TLoL and her magic. They've portrayed her as lost, dejected and beaten, but she somehow has the power to summon someone back from the dead?

I'm intrigued whether the cost will be to Jon, rather than to Mel/another sacrifice. Perhaps that pan down to Ghost (yay, they remembered he existed two seasons later!) means he's going to come back more... "wolfy", wild, etc. I mean he did look pretty freaked out when he woke up. I really hope it isn't a case of "you've been dead for an indeterminate time and possibly warged into your wolf but you're Jun Snuhhh so you'll be exactly the same as before you died." 

I'm interested by the idea that Bran or BR intervened. Although they did look quite busy showing Bran baby Ned. But I guess he does have a thousand eyes and one... (metaphorically, I guess now?) Then again, are D&D really going to be able to explain the complexity of the Weirnet/BR's power? 

 

TLDR: Yep, it was boring, anticlimatic and unsatisfying with a significant number of plot holes. Just like the rest of this season so far...

[Mat92]

I disagree I liked that they all seemed to fail and just left him there, it really feeds into Mel's increasing self-doubt.
Just being Ghost in the room when he wakes up is perfect, because Ghost is the closest thing he has to family member/friend (Pip and Grenn are dead, Sam left, Benjen is still MIA, the rest of the Starks are scattered/dead, etc). 

I do think it was a little rushed with having Davos come up with it but I see what they were going for. He should hate Mel but he can't deny her powers and they both spent years of their life fighting for Stannis' cause which turned out to be for nothing, and Davos can see how much of a toll that's taken on her. She's not someone who just says "oh well, guess he wan't the one" and moves on to the next candidate - he can see now that she had invested everything in Stannis and has lost all her resolve. 

I think Davos really wanted a win - they all came south because they believed in the threat north of the wall, and without Stannis, Jon is really the only person that understands that threat and can do something about it.

[Ser Yorick Ampersand]

It was far from memorable, but it was ok I guess.

It was a bit weird seeing Davos asking Melisandre to give him life since Davos should be angry with her because of Shireen and he doesnt like magic.

[Hodor's Aunt]

I liked it. After all the fuss, months of denial, waiting and arguing it's just like Mel telling Jon to get up and that's it. I laughed hard.

[Aerys Blackfyre]

I didn't like 2 things:

- Davos asking Mel's help in that way

- Jon opening his eyes at the end of the episode, it looked too much like the Bella's revival scene in Twilight 

[Bastard of the Dreadfort]

Has anyone seen the preview for next episode? (Rhetorical question, I know). *Spoilers if not*

You know that opening shot of Jon sitting up from the back...?

Imagine if THAT was the final shot of the last episode. Jon rising slowly from the slab, but only seen from the back, with NO sudden close up of him gasping back to life, so the viewer doesn't know if he's a wight OR truly himself.

THAT would have been a cliffhanger!

[Darksky]

1 hour ago, Balerion the one eared cat said:

I agree, the whole scene was predictable and anticlimatic. Firstly I'm still bemused why Davos is so invested in Jon and trusting of Mel. Everyone's said it a million times, but she brought about the death of they guy that raised him up from nothing, the sweet little girl he essentially adopted and Selyse who was Mel's most ardent follower. Why on earth would he trust her, and why on earth would he care about Jon being brought back?

Take it up with Martin. He made it predictable. Does anyone actually believe Jon's not coming back in the books? The whole Jon's arc in Dance and what's coming is so predictable.

But predictable doesn't equal bad. A story doesn't have to be always surprising and shocking to be good.

Anticlimatic? Again, Martin's fault. He came up with that resurrection by R'hllor. Thoros and Beric, remember them? Just a few words of prayer and voila!

Davos had lost his son, Shireen and Stannis. He's a follower, he needs someone to follow and advise, and he took a liking to Jon last season. Like Liam said, Davos is drawn to Jon, even if he doesn't realise it, he admires him as a leader and as an honourable, honest person with a good moral code. Jon's like Davos. I totally understand why show Davos is the way he is regarding Jon. They set it up last season.

Honestly, most of the things people criticise have a valid explanation. They just refuse to even consider it.

 

1 hour ago, Balerion the one eared cat said:

 

Also, it's annoyed me immensely that there doesn't seem to have been any cost to the ressurection. 

Again, Martin.  Did Thoros have to sacrifice anything to revive Beric six times?

It's curious how people tend to go so far as to criticise the show even about things they do that are canon, while accepting that canon blindly in the books. Happens a lot. Talk about double standards.

 

I prefer the quiet revival scene, especially with just Ghost present, to some flashy, cheesy one. And resurrection by Bran and Bloodraven would be deus ex machina. The worst would be Jon warging upon death, then being guided back to his dead and about to be resurrected body. Would there be a Harry Potter-style meeting between Jon and Bran? Let's not overdo the magical events. Given that the canon stresses that  once the body dies, it's impossible to go back after warging, if Martin does that in Winds, it will be an ass-pull.

[SevasTra82]

10 minutes ago, Darksky said:

Take it up with Martin. He made it predictable. Does anyone actually believe Jon's not coming back in the books? The whole Jon's arc in Dance and what's coming is so predictable.

But predictable doesn't equal bad. A story doesn't have to be always surprising and shocking to be good.

Anticlimatic? Again, Martin's fault. He came up with that resurrection by R'hllor. Thoros and Beric, remember them? Just a few words of prayer and voila!

Davos had lost his son, Shireen and Stannis. He's a follower, he needs someone to follow and advise, and he took a liking to Jon last season. Like Liam said, Davos is drawn to Jon, even if he doesn't realise it, he admires him as a leader and as an honourable, honest person with a good moral code. Jon's like Davos. I totally understand why show Davos is the way he is regarding Jon. They set it up last season.

Honestly, most of the things people criticise have a valid explanation. They just refuse to even consider it.

 

Again, Martin.  Did Thoros have to sacrifice anything to revive Beric six times?

It's curious how people tend to go so far as to criticise the show even about things they do that are canon, while accepting that canon blindly in the books. Happens a lot. Talk about double standards.

 

I prefer the quiet revival scene, especially with just Ghost present, to some flashy, cheesy one. And resurrection by Bran and Bloodraven would be deus ex machina. The worst would be Jon warging upon death, then being guided back to his dead and about to be resurrected body. Would there be a Harry Potter-style meeting between Jon and Bran? Let's not overdo the magical events. Given that the canon stresses that  once the body dies, it's impossible to go back after warging, if Martin does that in Winds, it will be an ass-pull.

 

I don't think GRRM made things predictable per-say....I think people have just had so much time to think about things that they already figured out the plot line.  When *every single line* is scrutinized for 5-6 years by millions upon millions of people, it tends to get a little hard to hide any sort of hints/foreshadowing from people.  And if he didn't add those hints/foreshadowing in his books, then people will feel like he added twists no reason except for "shock value" and give it a deus-ex machina feel.  He's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

Maybe he could have helped himself by writing faster (thus giving people less time to formulate these ideas).  Or maybe he could have not put in so many hints.  Or maybe people should stop dissecting and scrutinizing everything he does/writes and figuring out on their own (and then, ironically, blaming GRRM for it).  Who knows.

I don't think it's necessarily Martins fault for making things predictable.  Or that it's the fans fault for digging into every single line and dissecting the book(s) to the 10th degree.  I think it's just one of those situations that you can say "it is what it is".  

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I'm often defending the show and pointing out the logical explanations for things. However I don't think the show has done a good job of establishing WHY Davos is so interested in Jon or why he would consider the idea of bringing him back from the dead. That he simply came up with the idea out of nowhere seemed a bit strange. Of all the solutions to your problems you could come up with, why would you consider the possibility of bringing back some guy who'd died as the one you'd prefer. 

[Benoitthegr8]

It was okay, I guess I really was expecting something more elaborate, but in the circumstance it easily fits into the story. Forward I'm wondering how Davos, Mel, ect will discover he was actually brought back, or if they will totally gloss over that and we will be left with Jon just inserted into the next episode... I guess we will see and this is one of the reasons the show has had me and the wife watching religiously for years now.

[Nerevanin]

I was to be honest. Like, it was clear right from the moment that Jon died that he would come back but when Melisandre started to wash him with the cloth, I swear that I could predict exactly what was going to happen. That Melisandre would fail at first. She would try again. It wouldn't work. They would be disappointed and would left the room. When the last one leaves, Jon would wake up. It was way too obvious what was going to happen.

The only moment that I doubted was when they showed Ghost lying there. I wasn't sure if he was sleeping or dying and for a moment I thought that Ghost would be killed by the magic and his soul would revive Jon. But then he just woke up so....

[Boudica]

1 hour ago, Darksky said:

Take it up with Martin. He made it predictable. Does anyone actually believe Jon's not coming back in the books? The whole Jon's arc in Dance and what's coming is so predictable.

But predictable doesn't equal bad. A story doesn't have to be always surprising and shocking to be good.

Anticlimatic? Again, Martin's fault. He came up with that resurrection by R'hllor. Thoros and Beric, remember them? Just a few words of prayer and voila!

Davos had lost his son, Shireen and Stannis. He's a follower, he needs someone to follow and advise, and he took a liking to Jon last season. Like Liam said, Davos is drawn to Jon, even if he doesn't realise it, he admires him as a leader and as an honourable, honest person with a good moral code. Jon's like Davos. I totally understand why show Davos is the way he is regarding Jon. They set it up last season.

Honestly, most of the things people criticise have a valid explanation. They just refuse to even consider it.

 

Again, Martin.  Did Thoros have to sacrifice anything to revive Beric six times?

It's curious how people tend to go so far as to criticise the show even about things they do that are canon, while accepting that canon blindly in the books. Happens a lot. Talk about double standards.

 

I prefer the quiet revival scene, especially with just Ghost present, to some flashy, cheesy one. And resurrection by Bran and Bloodraven would be deus ex machina. The worst would be Jon warging upon death, then being guided back to his dead and about to be resurrected body. Would there be a Harry Potter-style meeting between Jon and Bran? Let's not overdo the magical events. Given that the canon stresses that  once the body dies, it's impossible to go back after warging, if Martin does that in Winds, it will be an ass-pull.

I do agree with a lot of this. Although I wouldn't say that anyone is to blame. 

I think the show did the right thing with Jon's resurrection. They simply followed the rules that were previously established within the story itself. Berric Dondarrion was resurrected 6 times by the Lord of Light without any funfair. Thoros simply said the words. The first time Thoros resurrected Berric he did not believe in R'hllor he simply said the words for a friend because he was at his wits end. The resurrection of Jon mirrors what happened to Thoros and Berric. People think it is anticlimactic because it seems like Jon was just another person who was brought back to live. People just need to be a bit more patient at times, and let the story tell itself. In the next episode we will see the ToJ sequence and we will learn more about the reasons for Jon coming back to life. 

The show is damned if they do and damned if they dont this stage. If they had made a big event out of Jon's resurrection then they would not have been following the established rules within the story, and people would have complained about that. They simply followed the basic storytelling principals with Jon's resurrection. Narratively speaking I think burning Jon on a pyre could also have worked, but we will get the ToJ story next week and that will tell us why Jon is important. 

As for Davos he really doesn't have much of anything left. His son died. The man who he was serving very devoutly died. His surrogate daughter Shireen died. He is stuck at the Wall. It is not as if it would be easy for him to leave the Wall at this stage, he is alone and far up in the North surrounded by enemies. Davos does not know Melisandre's part in Shireen and Stannis's death. 

It is somewhat ironic but at the moment the only part that is left of Stannis and his previous life is actually Melisandre. They were opposites or enemies before, but right now Melisandre is the only thing that is left of Stannis. Davos is the only one who has seen Melisandre birth a shadow baby, he knows Meliisandre predicted a big battle won in the snow, and he saw that. when they won the battle against the Wildlings. When Melisandre says that she saw Jon fighting at Winterfell, he might actually believe that. Stannis also had a certain admiration for Jon, and Davos himself saw that Jon is a decent person. He is very similar to Davos, and is properly the kind of leader that Davos would really like to follow. 

Davos does not have much to lose at this stage. He could risk his life to go South again, but he also knows about the threat of the White Walkers it is not within his personality to simply walk away. The other option he had was to join the Nights Watch. It really takes very little from him to try something else by using Melisandre. Melisandre has always said that Davos has a role to play. But perhaps it would be better explained in the future. 

[Darksky]

@SevasTra82 Even if Winds had come out a month after Dance Jon's assassination and subsequent comeback would have been predictable. It's how Martin set it all up with all those not-so-subtle hints and Jon's character arc. Actually the show made things less predictable, more murky. Forgetting about the books and off-season spoilers, I doubt many would actually believe he would be back. It's what actually happened for the Unsullied who haven't read ASOIAF and who avoid spoilers in spite of the fact the show set up a possibility of revival by including Beric/Thoros as well as their meeting with Melisandre in season 4.