Disappointing Revival?

[HairGrowsBack]

9 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

No. Davos has no clue what she's done. How could he? He doesn't watch the show. 

Have you watched last season ? It's clear when he's being sent away that he knows what is going to happen. And when Mel arrives at Castle Black, he's all "and the Princess ?" and Mel gets all moppy, and so does he. He knows. He just got afflicted by "the convenient amnesia syndrome" of the show.

[Stag Queen]

I was just confused what exactly caused Jons resurrection. Wasn´t there a strict "only death can pay for life"- concept? So with what was Jons life payed for? Shireen? That would be hell of a late effect. I´m sure that Jon being able to warg Ghost helped the matter, because his spirit or part of his spirit was still conserved in a body, but really, was all that was needed giving him a haircut and saying a few words? 

[Crixus]

@ShadowKitteh

 

Funny, I seem to recall Davos grieving over his son's death when Sallador Saan rescued him in S3. He didn't tear his hair out, but he seemed deeply affected. You can see the regret and pain on his face when he shakes his head, when Saan asks about Mathos. 

I didn't expect him to wail and fling himself off the Wall this time around either; however, a second of basic acknowledgement would be appropriate and fitting. Not moving on cheerily and placidly the way he did in TRW. Again, YMMV. 

I also find it hilarious that we need to assume Davos has been filled in about the WW army, but the entire Night's Watch wasn't/hasn't. Seeing as how if they had been, Thorne would be too, and neither he nor the other officers + Olly would have killed Jon because they would know the Wildings aren't the real threat. Which is it? In my view this is spec, not based on any dialogue or expression or scene in the show. Again, they need to show or tell such important aspects such as: is the Wall aware of an army of the dead approaching? 

Third, there's a big space between 'Mel killed Shireen' and 'Mel appeared suddenly at the Wall, alone. Wonder where Stannis/Shireen/the entire army are'. You'd expect Davos to ask her, at the very least. You'd also expect Davos to be a touch suspicious based on his loyalty to Stannis and his previous fraught relationship with Mel--and the fact that he has NEVER trusted her. So, likely scenarios:

1. Davos doesn't know Stannis etc. are dead. In this case, I think he'd be a bit curious about Mel being at the Wall. He may want to know important info such as what happened at the battle, whether there were survivors, whether Stannis sent her here and why, and such. But we haven't seen a hint of this.

2. Davos knows they're all dead but not about Mel's role. First, based on the show's own depiction of their dynamic, he would suspect her involvement. He would question her, at the very least. He wouldn't just carry on blithely, focusing on coaxing Mel to help Jon. Where's the setup or justification for this abrupt interest in Jon and trust in Mel? Last season he didn't want to leave Shireen with her own father, because he didn't trust Mel and feared for Shireen's safety. This season he's suddenly trusting her? What brought about this change? 

3. Davos knows everyone's dead and Mel burnt Shireen alive. In my view, based on what we have seen of Davos in book and show, he would try to kill Mel for this or at the very least, punish her. Instead, he joins hands with her.

All scenarios are hilariously bereft of logic IMO. But please, feel free to disagree. As you say, we're clearly watching different versions of the show. 

As for your point about the smoke monster and peter pan, I don't really get it so I won't comment.

[Dragon in the North]

6 hours ago, Stag Queen said:

I was just confused what exactly caused Jons resurrection. Wasn´t there a strict "only death can pay for life"- concept? So with what was Jons life payed for? Shireen? That would be hell of a late effect. I´m sure that Jon being able to warg Ghost helped the matter, because his spirit or part of his spirit was still conserved in a body, but really, was all that was needed giving him a haircut and saying a few words? 

Beric Dondarrion came back to life without the need of a sacrifice. 

[Dragon in the North]

6 hours ago, Crixus said:

 

Third, there's a big space between 'Mel killed Shireen' and 'Mel appeared suddenly at the Wall, alone. Wonder where Stannis/Shireen/the entire army are'. You'd expect Davos to ask her, at the very least. You'd also expect Davos to be a touch suspicious based on his loyalty to Stannis and his previous fraught relationship with Mel--and the fact that he has NEVER trusted her. So, likely scenarios:

The last time Davos left Stannis, his supplies had just been burned and men had already abandoned his cause. Losing and getting slaughtered by the Boltons was the most obvious explanation, seeing as Melisandre has always been a devout follower of Stannis.

[protar]

16 hours ago, Darksky said:

@protar

Martin sure has done a great job in making this fandom enamoured with convoluted plotlines.

Easy and casual you say.Thoros and Beric anyone? And six times, honestly? 

I know people have been building up some corny Azor Ahai/Targaryen/Special Snowflake-style revival in their heads for years but it's unlikely it'd translate well on screen. The show has reduced the amount of magical events and prophecy themes and for the better. Neither books nor the show have established BR and Bran to have that kind of power. Their involvement would be out of left field  The books have established Targaryens aren't immune to fire and that Dany's feat was a one-time event, so no repeat of unburnt on pyre crap. Warging alone cannot bring back from the dead. And the canon has it that a warg can't go back to their dead body, so if it happened with Jon it'd be deus ex machina. That leaves R'hllor and Mel. The Snow White's kiss has been nonexistet in the show, so it's understandable why they haven't suddenly introduced it. No sacrifce needed as per the books. There's nothing else they could have done.

Beric's situation wasn't something we really got to explore that in depth because we didn't no pre-resurrected Beric. But Martin made it clear that there was a price to pay. If there's no change to Jon in the coming episodes it's going to be very dissatisfying. 

The show reducing the amount of magic is no excuse. Why'd they do that in the first place? The magic in the series works great and is one of it's best parts. There's just no getting around how nonchalant Jon's resurrection was. You can just tell that D+D knew no effort was needed, because Jon returning would drive people wild anyway. 

And thirdly, my big problem was just how unmotivated it was. Davos had no reason to suggest the resurrection. If Mel doesn't believe Jon is AA she's doing it for no real reason, the wildlings shouldn't be going along with it given their experience with the undead. It's literally just expecting people to lose their shit over Jon coming back and not bothering to actually make the scene good in it's own right.

[Noveson]

@Stag Queen I don't think that's a worlwide thing as far as the series goes.  The only person said that was the crone using blood magic for Khal Drogo.  There was no death involved in any of Beric's resurrections as far as we know, and this was the same kind of magic.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

It doesn't matter one jot to me whether Davos knows about Stannis, or what happened at Winterfell. 

The only thing that really bothers me is that Davos considered resurrection as an option, out of thin air. Of all the answers to your immediate problems right at that moment, why would you suddenly think that bringing back to life some guy whos laying dead on your table is your best option.

[Hodor's Aunt]

6 hours ago, Stag Queen said:

I was just confused what exactly caused Jons resurrection. Wasn´t there a strict "only death can pay for life"- concept?

That is the concept of the blood magic of Mirri Maz Duur. It is not the concept of the "red god". Beric was revived 7 times without any sacrifice.

[protar]

15 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

It doesn't matter one jot to me whether Davos knows about Stannis, or what happened at Winterfell. 

Well it kind of should seeing as his loyalty to Stannis is the centre of Davos' character up until this point. And the scene where Mel arrives back at the Wall pretty clearly indicates that he knows that Shireen is dead so why has there been no confrontation?

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

12 minutes ago, protar said:

Well it kind of should seeing as his loyalty to Stannis is the centre of Davos' character up until this point. And the scene where Mel arrives back at the Wall pretty clearly indicates that he knows that Shireen is dead so why has there been no confrontation?

It just doesn't bother me. Possibly he's moved on, possibly he's looking at the bigger picture... I don't really care all that much. 

[protar]

16 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

It just doesn't bother me. Possibly he's moved on, possibly he's looking at the bigger picture... I don't really care all that much. 

I doubt he's moved on in like a couple days at most. Not sure what the bigger picture is either. Stannis is Davos' whole picture. If you just mean it's not something you personally care about then that's one thing but you can't argue that it makes any sense.

[JonSnow4President]

5 hours ago, Hodor's Aunt said:

That is the concept of the blood magic of Mirri Maz Duur. It is not the concept of the "red god". Beric was revived 7 times without any sacrifice.

Depends on which universe.  Show-verse, Beric mentions that a part of him dies every time.  Book-verse, Beric loses a piece of himself each time, and Thoros' life force is drained as well ("a seventh death would kill us both.")  

We remain to see how different Jon is, so it's not a definitive call.  But based on their track record of consistency, I really am not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.

[ShadowKitteh]

14 hours ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Have you watched last season ? It's clear when he's being sent away that he knows what is going to happen. And when Mel arrives at Castle Black, he's all "and the Princess ?" and Mel gets all moppy, and so does he. He knows. He just got afflicted by "the convenient amnesia syndrome" of the show.

Yes I watched it, did you? Please describe exactly how Davos "knows" details of Shireen's death. It's not at all clear that Mel is going to actually burn Shireen alive. It's clear that both Selyse and Shireen are in danger being anywhere near an active battlefield, especially one involving a family as batshit crazy as the Boltons. Has Mel done some horrid and questionable things? Yes. But she burnt Stannis's brother-in-law for being a non-believer, not as a war sacrifice. I don't think it's as obvious to the characters as it is to us. 

7 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

The last time Davos left Stannis, his supplies had just been burned and men had already abandoned his cause. Losing and getting slaughtered by the Boltons was the most obvious explanation, seeing as Melisandre has always been a devout follower of Stannis.

This^^.

Davos left after Ramsay's raid, but before Shireen's death, and the rest of the sellswords desertion, and Selyse's suicide, leaving Stannis capable of only a suicide mission so he won't be remembered as, "The King Who Ran", (but instead will be remembered as, "The Math Fail King")

It's the Boltons. The family would have been flayed first. Melisandre has no need to explain anything. They're all dead. Stannis approved of everything Mel did. 

It also doesn't matter how Shireen died, Stannis sanctioned it. Burning/flaying, Shireen was doomed the minute she left Dragonstone. Even Davos understands Stannis had the final say in all of it, including how Shireen died. So even if Davos "knows", he also knows Stannis sent him away precisely so he wouldn't attempt to stop it.

I honestly don't think it matters if Davos knows or not, I personally don't think he does, yet. I don't see Mel being that cruel. No reason to upset the man. The last thing she needs is Davos hating her any more than he already does. They need each other to survive. Every living human needs all other living humans to be alive at this point to fight the WWs. While it might make for some interesting drama if/when he does find out.  Will Mel still be alive, and if, after all is said and done, if/how Davos's knowledge actually affects the overall arc of the story.

Even if Davos correctly suspects Shireen's demise, what could/would he actually do about it? if he kidnaps Shireen, he will be disobeying his king, and Stannis strikes me as well past giving anyone any second chances at this point, especially Davos, and I just don't see Davos going against Stannis, no matter how insane he might get.

As for Davos knowing about the WWs - he's known they're a threat to the entire realm since reading the letter they received from the Nights Watch back at the end of season 3.

I don't imagine Davos is bereft of action just because he's off screen and we can't see him. While I don't see Throne speaking to any Wildlings, I don't see Davos not speaking to Tormund. So yeah, IMO I think he's well aware of what's coming. 

[HairGrowsBack]

15 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Yes I watched it, did you? Please describe exactly how Davos "knows" details of Shireen's death. It's not at all clear that Mel is going to actually burn Shireen alive. It's clear that both Selyse and Shireen are in danger being anywhere near an active battlefield, especially one involving a family as batshit crazy as the Boltons. Has Mel done some horrid and questionable things? Yes. But she burnt Stannis's brother-in-law for being a non-believer, not as a war sacrifice. I don't think it's as obvious to the characters as it is to us. 

 

 

Even discounting the meaningful look exchange he's had with Mel last season, you seriously have no troublr believing that Davos didn't ask her once about Stannis and Shireen ? The guy who said "Stannis is my god" and clearly had a special bond with the princess just didn't ask what happened to them ? Really ?

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Even discounting the meaningful look exchange he's had with Mel last season, you seriously have no troublr believing that Davos didn't ask her once about Stannis and Shireen ? The guy who said "Stannis is my god" and clearly had a special bond with the princess just didn't ask what happened to them ? Really ?

It makes zero sense for Davos not to ask Mel about the details, what happened, how, etc.

And one has to wonder whether he ever will ask her, or even he'll learn some other way now that the demands of the plot have been served and Jon is back.  

[HairGrowsBack]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It makes zero sense for Davos not to ask Mel about the details, what happened, how, etc.

And one has to wonder whether he ever will ask her, or even he'll learn some other way now that the demands of the plot have been served and Jon is back.  

I would be very surprised if he did. I mean, it was last season, get over it.

Seriously though, the whole thing is insane.

[ummester]

He asks her at the end of season 5

Jon goes 'Stannis?'

Mel has a hopeless look

Davos goes 'Shireen? The princess?'

Mel has an even more hopeless look.

That night Jon is stabbed.

The next morning Davos finds Jon's body.

 

We have seen all of the interaction Davos would have had time for with Mel re Shireen. The problem isn't Davos not blaming Mel - he hasn't had time to think about that yet, the problem isn't even Davos asking Mel to try and resurrect Jon - that is logical considerring the players at Castle Black. The problem is why did Davos suddenly latch onto Jon?

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, ummester said:

He asks her at the end of season 5

Jon goes 'Stannis?'

Mel has a hopeless look

Davos goes 'Shireen? The princess?'

Mel has an even more hopeless look.

That night Jon is stabbed.

The next morning Davos finds Jon's body.

 

We have seen all of the interaction Davos would have had time for with Mel re Shireen. The problem isn't Davos not blaming Mel - he hasn't had time to think about that yet, the problem isn't even Davos asking Mel to try and resurrect Jon - that is logical considerring the players at Castle Black. The problem is why did Davos suddenly latch onto Jon?

That is another problem, but the fact that he doesn't ask anything is ridiculous as well, given what both Stannis and Shireen supposedly meant to him. And yet another issue is, since he's in touch with Edd and must know about the threat north of the Wall, why does he, and the NW men loyal to Jon, and the wildlings think all of a sudden that it's such a great idea to bring someone back from the dead? Yes, demands of the plot, however nonsensical it is in the context we were shown.  

[ummester]

37 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

That is another problem, but the fact that he doesn't ask anything is ridiculous as well, given what both Stannis and Shireen supposedly meant to him. And yet another issue is, since he's in touch with Edd and must know about the threat north of the Wall, why does he, and the NW men loyal to Jon, and the wildlings think all of a sudden that it's such a great idea to bring someone back from the dead? Yes, demands of the plot, however nonsensical it is in the context we were shown.  

 

Here is the conversation before the resurrection scene:

 

Davos - I assume you know why I'm here.

Mel - I will after you tell me.

Davos - It's about the Lord Commander.

Mel - The former Lord Commander.

Davos - Does he have to be?

Mel - What are you asking?

Davos - Do you know of any magic that could help him? Bring him back?

Mel - If you want to help him, leave him be.

Davos - Can it be done?

Mel - There are some with this power.

Davos - How?

Mel - I don't know.

Davos- Have you seen it done?

Mel - I met a man who came back from the dead but the priest who did it... It should not have been possible.

Davos - But it was. It could be now.

Mel - Not for me.

Davos - Not for you? I saw you drink poison that should have killed you. I saw you give birth to a demon made of shadows.

Mel - Everything I believed, the great victory I saw in the flames, all of it was a lie. You were right all along, the Lord never spoke to me.

Davos - Fuck him then. Fuck all of them. I'm not a devout man, obviously. Seven Gods, drowned Gods, tree Gods - it's all the same. I'm not asking the Lord of Light for help, I'm asking the woman that showed me miracles exist.

Mel - I never had this gift.

Davos - Have you ever tried?

 

I don't get:

Davos - Does he have to be?

Why does Davos want Jon to come back to life? This is the big issue I have with it. What, did he finally see 1 person he liked too many die and go fuck it, I don't want this death to stick? His motivations are unexplained.

All that was needed was Davos saying something like, 'I lost my son, my king and my princess - I do not want to lose this lad as well. Just this one. Bring him back. Prove to me it hasn't been for nothing.' Or something that expressed where his emotions were at.

Instead we get

Davos - Fuck him then. Fuck all of them. I'm not a devout man, obviously. Seven Gods, drowned Gods, tree Gods - it's all the same. I'm not asking the Lord of Light for help, I'm asking the woman that showed me miracles exist.

This line is written entirely wrong. It's like whoever wrote it knew what they were trying to say but didn't know how to say it

 

As a side note, however, rereading it makes it very obvious that it was probably not the Lord of Light that brought Jon back. Fuck him then. Fuck all of them. I think Davos may have inadvertently denounced the Lord of Light - I'm pretty sure The Great Other gave life to Jon's body.