Disappointing Revival?

[Faint]

42 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I still loved the resurrection scene, but there was definitely a failure at some point in explaining Davos's motivations.  

As circular as this seems, I feel that Benioff and Weiss had Davos act the way he does in order to provide Melisandre's motivation. He is simply a plot construct. 

In the books, I think one of two things happen:

1. The first option is that Melisandre comes to believe that Stannis is dead after her visions confirm the Pink Letter, so she takes drastic action and burns Shireen to bring him back, and when she asks for the return of Azor Ahai, she gets Jon Snow; or 
2. Melisandre comes to realize that Jon is Azor Ahai or more important than she realized before, and does the same thing. 

The problem is that the show has already foreclosed these scenarios. So Davos acting out of character was needed. 

[JonSnow4President]

3 minutes ago, Faint said:

As circular as this seems, I feel that Benioff and Weiss had Davos act the way he does in order to provide Melisandre's motivation. He is simply a plot construct. 

In the books, I think one of two things happen:

1. The first option is that Melisandre comes to believe that Stannis is dead after her visions confirm the Pink Letter, so she takes drastic action and burns Shireen to bring him back, and when she asks for the return of Azor Ahai, she gets Jon Snow; or 
2. Melisandre comes to realize that Jon is Azor Ahai or more important than she realized before, and does the same thing. 

The problem is that the show has already foreclosed these scenarios. So Davos acting out of character was needed. 

I don't think it was needed.  I think a straight pyre scene, while unsatisfactory compared to some possible alternatives unavailable to the show, could have been more satisfying than that.  Although it might suggest his Targaryen-ness a little earlier than the show wanted, so who knows.

[ShadowKitteh]

On May 3, 2016 at 7:15 AM, the tower of albion said:

Not Minor wounds - coma inducing wounds me thinks. 

If Jon doesn't die in the books, he doesn't get out of his NW vows either. Methinks that needs to happen... and why Jon has to die.

[ShadowKitteh]

On May 3, 2016 at 7:36 AM, HairGrowsBack said:

The execution was definitely cliché : the "oh no it isn't working we're leaving...cue to resurrection" has been overdone.

As for the motivation : I don't get it. Why would Davos want to resurrect him (and think it possible in the first place) ? They wanted him back, but couldn't think of a sound reason/explanation for it. Why is Davos cheering Mel up ? Doesn't he know what she's done ? There is little reason as to why he suddenly is team Mel when he mistrusted her for so long.

No. Davos has no clue what she's done. How could he? He doesn't watch the show. 

[ShadowKitteh]

12 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

 I know we almost never agree. But I agree.

I mean its not even that Davos is a fan of Jon. That I can maybe understand, maybe he see's Jon as a good leader and someone he respects and who was doing a good thing, and his death was unjust.

But why would he suddenly think there is this 'get out of jail card' of bringing him back to life. Where did that even come from? It just appeared out of nowhere in his head. 

I'm not massively keen on that to be honest.

If I'd witnessed a Shadow Stannis Demon come out of a human vagina, I'd probably think the bearer had a wider range of skills.

[Darksky]

@protar

Martin sure has done a great job in making this fandom enamoured with convoluted plotlines.

Easy and casual you say.Thoros and Beric anyone? And six times, honestly? 

I know people have been building up some corny Azor Ahai/Targaryen/Special Snowflake-style revival in their heads for years but it's unlikely it'd translate well on screen. The show has reduced the amount of magical events and prophecy themes and for the better. Neither books nor the show have established BR and Bran to have that kind of power. Their involvement would be out of left field  The books have established Targaryens aren't immune to fire and that Dany's feat was a one-time event, so no repeat of unburnt on pyre crap. Warging alone cannot bring back from the dead. And the canon has it that a warg can't go back to their dead body, so if it happened with Jon it'd be deus ex machina. That leaves R'hllor and Mel. The Snow White's kiss has been nonexistet in the show, so it's understandable why they haven't suddenly introduced it. No sacrifce needed as per the books. There's nothing else they could have done.

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

No. Davos has no clue what she's done. How could he? He doesn't watch the show. 

Maybe @HairGrowsBack was referring to the time that Davos saw Mel birth the shadow baby? Or the leech burning thing. Nevrmind that part.

It is weird that Davos asked Mel for a "miracle" and just went straight to assuming that she could bring a dead body back. She seemed to explain it to him like it was her first time explaining it to anyone.

ADDING: Just saw your other posts on a refresh. Sorry. you did talk about this.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'm not exactly disappointed because I wasn't expecting anything. Like, it wasn't a big surprise that Jon would return, but mostly because they even advertised Kit Harrington in the first Teaser poster (in NY, I think). So... rather than being part of a storyline, it looked more like a marketing move a la "who shot JR?". Despite the show needing Kit Harrington (who, imo, is less relevant yet to the storyline than Richard Madden was, who they did killed for good), I see no much of a reason to keep the character, specially now Sansa Stark (A STARK!) is going to the Wall. Those of use who have read KNOW the importance of Jon... the show keeps telling us Jon Snow is important because he's supposed to be important. Sometimes, I feel we readers end up filling all the gaps in the plot, even if inadvertently.

 

 

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, Faint said:

We can only be sure that Melisandre is involved. Val is another possible participant though:

Val, Morna and Tormund are going to be extremely key in the bringing Jon back part. I am a huge Val suporter for many reasons and this is just one. But since we only have about half of one of the three, I think the streamlining from book to show has created a short-cut, jumbled version that has to use Mel by default.

I wasn't actually too disappointed with the rezz on tv. I can do without the showy fanfare of what we all knew what was going to happen. The slight nod from Ghost to Jon before Jon wakes was nice.

[Faint]

See, I think if you are going to suggest that the sacrifice of Shireen will occur independent of Jon's revival in Martin's story, you have to forward a plausible explanation of how that takes place. Speaking for myself, I can imagine no such scenario. 

The idea of Melisandre reaching Stannis near Winterfell or Stannis retreating to Castle Black seems so very unlikely. Think how much time it took Stannis to get from Deepwood Motte to the outskirts of Winterfell.

Benioff and Weiss can have Melisandre and her teleporting horse, Martin cannot. 

Then there is also this to consider: the real Melisandre, that is, the book version, has no knowledge of Thoros Myr and his methods of resurrection. That was a show invention.

Now ask yourself: If the Melisandre in Martin's story, knowing what we know about her and her proclivities when it comes to magic (i.e., Alester Florent, Edric Storm, Stannis Baratheon), were to attempt a resurrection, how would she go about doing it? 

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

56 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The slight nod from Ghost to Jon before Jon wakes was nice.

Olly is warging Ghost now? D: !!

[The Fattest Leech]

6 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

Olly is warging Ghost now? D: !!

"Edd, fetch me a masher."

[Battle Kitten]

On 5/3/2016 at 11:28 PM, Crixus said:

There should have been some element of cost or sacrifice to it: Mel dying or withering into her real self... something! 

Perhaps they'll address this later? 

I don't know.  Remember when Thoros was explaining how he brought back Dondarrion?  He had lost his faith and was completely lost when he died, so he got on his knees and spoke the words, the only ones he knew.  Melisandre experienced the same in the previous episode.  Her stating "please" was her last ditch effort.  Very similar play out.  So I do not think it requires a sacrifice, plus it isn't blood magic like the other witch lady. forgot her now.

[wolverine]

On 5/3/2016 at 4:58 AM, Aerys Blackfyre said:

I didn't like 2 things:

- Davos asking Mel's help in that way

- Jon opening his eyes at the end of the episode, it looked too much like the Bella's revival scene in Twilight 

First thing:  I was ok with this.  I kind of like how they hate each other but both see Jon as someone important enough to put aside their differences.

 

Second thing:  Fortunately, I have never seen twilight.

[Stannis is the man....nis]

1 hour ago, Faint said:

See, I think if you are going to suggest that the sacrifice of Shireen will occur independent of Jon's revival in Martin's story, you have to forward a plausible explanation of how that takes place. Speaking for myself, I can imagine no such scenario. 

The idea of Melisandre reaching Stannis near Winterfell or Stannis retreating to Castle Black seems so very unlikely. Think how much time it took Stannis to get from Deepwood Motte to the outskirts of Winterfell.

Benioff and Weiss can have Melisandre and her teleporting horse, Martin cannot. 

Then there is also this to consider: the real Melisandre, that is, the book version, has no knowledge of Thoros Myr and his methods of resurrection. That was a show invention.

Now ask yourself: If the Melisandre in Martin's story, knowing what we know about her and her proclivities when it comes to magic (i.e., Alester Florent, Edric Storm, Stannis Baratheon), were to attempt a resurrection, how would she go about doing it? 

 

These are all true, if it's Stannis call it almost has to happen in ADOS just due to traveling distance

[Steelborn]

On 5/3/2016 at 8:43 AM, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I'm often defending the show and pointing out the logical explanations for things. However I don't think the show has done a good job of establishing WHY Davos is so interested in Jon or why he would consider the idea of bringing him back from the dead. That he simply came up with the idea out of nowhere seemed a bit strange. Of all the solutions to your problems you could come up with, why would you consider the possibility of bringing back some guy who'd died as the one you'd prefer. 

Exactly my thoughts.

[Crixus]

Yes. Davos' sudden loyalty and support to Jon have come out of nowhere. I was trying to rationalise it to myself and thought: Davos knew Stannis held Jon in high regard (I remember a line from him to Jon last season in this vein) and Stannis and Shireen are now dead. Davos is the sort of man who needs to follow someone he believes in. Perhaps that's why he is looking to Jon? 

This would actually make sense IF:

1. They'd shown Davos display a modicum of grief over Stannis and Shireen.

2. They'd shown Davos confront the person who is responsible for these deaths. An angry confrontation with Mel, perhaps, that leaves her shaken so she decides to try and revive Jon and make up somehow for her mistakes and she does so alone and in secret... 

They could have done it many ways. Many better ways. 

[Baelor_the_Blessed]

I like the low-key revival.

If there had been a lot of pomp and circumstance, it sets up Jon as a sort of Messiah character to the viewers. We have another two seasons of story to unfold. Dramatic tension only works if we think that our hero is in danger. Even if - yes - we know that generally the hero prevails in the end, the journey is much more enjoyable if the hero actually faces peril. Messiah Jon Snow wouldn't lose any battles. Dondarrian-like Jon Snow might.

[ShadowKitteh]

4 hours ago, wolverine said:

First thing:  I was ok with this.  I kind of like how they hate each other but both see Jon as someone important enough to put aside their differences.

 

Second thing:  Fortunately, I have never seen twilight.

.... very forgettable. Thankfully. 

[ShadowKitteh]

1 hour ago, Crixus said:

Yes. Davos' sudden loyalty and support to Jon have come out of nowhere. I was trying to rationalise it to myself and thought: Davos knew Stannis held Jon in high regard (I remember a line from him to Jon last season in this vein) and Stannis and Shireen are now dead. Davos is the sort of man who needs to follow someone he believes in. Perhaps that's why he is looking to Jon? 

This would actually make sense IF:

1. They'd shown Davos display a modicum of grief over Stannis and Shireen.

2. They'd shown Davos confront the person who is responsible for these deaths. An angry confrontation with Mel, perhaps, that leaves her shaken so she decides to try and revive Jon and make up somehow for her mistakes and she does so alone and in secret... 

They could have done it many ways. Many better ways. 

I feel like I've watched a far more detailed version of the series than you have. 

1. When has Show Davos shone a modicum of grief over anything? Even his son. Show Davos isn't played, or written, and likely directed, that way. Liam's Davos is professionally practical.

I'm sure that at this point, Davos has been filled in regarding the Army of the Dead that's headed their way, oh god oh god we're all going to die. Grief? Who has time for that?

2. You're assuming Davos knows how they died. He doesn't. Why would he? Who would tell him? Melisandre? She has no reason (and plenty not) to give him any details other than, "Major desertion + outnumbered = suicide mission for everyone. Including the family - these are the Boltons, after all." (That look she gave him last season when she rode back in, was enough for me.) As for deserters - why travel twice the distance, when you could get to a coast, and a new life and identity, so you aren't executed for desertion?

3. Yes, I'm adding a third issue because  - Is there a Plan B?

Seriously. I don't see one. Castle Black currently has some Willings, including their presumptive leader, Tormund, who you'd need to get the rest of them, and the loyal Night's Watch, including their LeaderForNow, Edd.

Who could unite them? Soonooo yeah - not very much of a Plan B whatsoever.

OH HEY! I know the Smoke Monster from LOST's MOM! I'll ask HER!

....not much of a stretch at all for me.

Are there really people who grew up without Peter Pan? Tinkerbell...? clap if you believe.... ? Anyone?