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Disappointing Revival?


Hackforth

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14 minutes ago, ummester said:

 

Here is the conversation before the resurrection scene:

 

Davos - I assume you know why I'm here.

Mel - I will after you tell me.

Davos - It's about the Lord Commander.

Mel - The former Lord Commander.

Davos - Does he have to be?

Mel - What are you asking?

Davos - Do you know of any magic that could help him? Bring him back?

Mel - If you want to help him, leave him be.

Davos - Can it be done?

Mel - There are some with this power.

Davos - How?

Mel - I don't know.

Davos- Have you seen it done?

Mel - I met a man who came back from the dead but the priest who did it... It should not have been possible.

Davos - But it was. It could be now.

Mel - Not for me.

Davos - Not for you? I saw you drink poison that should have killed you. I saw you give birth to a demon made of shadows.

Mel - Everything I believed, the great victory I saw in the flames, all of it was a lie. You were right all along, the Lord never spoke to me.

Davos - Fuck him then. Fuck all of them. I'm not a devout man, obviously. Seven Gods, drowned Gods, tree Gods - it's all the same. I'm not asking the Lord of Light for help, I'm asking the woman that showed me miracles exist.

Mel - I never had this gift.

Davos - Have you ever tried?

 

I don't get:

Davos - Does he have to be?

Why does Davos want Jon to come back to life? This is the big issue I have with it. What, did he finally see 1 person he liked too many die and go fuck it, I don't want this death to stick? His motivations are unexplained.

All that was needed was Davos saying something like, 'I lost my son, my king and my princess - I do not want to lose this lad as well. Just this one. Bring him back. Prove to me it hasn't been for nothing.' Or something that expressed where his emotions were at.

Instead we get

Davos - Fuck him then. Fuck all of them. I'm not a devout man, obviously. Seven Gods, drowned Gods, tree Gods - it's all the same. I'm not asking the Lord of Light for help, I'm asking the woman that showed me miracles exist.

This line is written entirely wrong. It's like whoever wrote it knew what they were trying to say but didn't know how to say it :D

Yeah, but this isn't the first issue like this, nor will it be the last. And just as you said, most would be very easy to fix with tweaking with the text a bit. 

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, but this isn't the first issue like this, nor will it be the last. And just as you said, most would be very easy to fix with tweaking with the text a bit. 

So it's probably not that they are trying to move the plot too fast - just that they are writing too fast, not re-reading enough or something.

This is why I think GRRM should still be writing for the show - he's obviously a better writer, I don't think anyone will deny that, including D&D. But it seems there has been some falling out over something (and we can only speculate as to what) because I can't see any logical reason why GRRM wouldn't want to help his opus be as good as it can be on screen.

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3 hours ago, ummester said:

So it's probably not that they are trying to move the plot too fast - just that they are writing too fast, not re-reading enough or something.

This is why I think GRRM should still be writing for the show - he's obviously a better writer, I don't think anyone will deny that, including D&D. But it seems there has been some falling out over something (and we can only speculate as to what) because I can't see any logical reason why GRRM wouldn't want to help his opus be as good as it can be on screen.

There is the small matter of getting the next book out...:whip:

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I think the trailer is pretty indicative of the fact that Davos does not know that Shireen was burned alive. Difficult to say where that will lead. There are also pretty big indicators that Melisandre will survive to walk the battlements of Winterfell and meet Arya again. 

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As for why Davos would try to bring Jon back to life, my thoughts:

-It was pretty apparent that Stannis recognized the threat of the army of the dead. I believe there were a couple mentions by Stannis, but the one that I remember right now is where he asked Sam to keep reading about them. Stannis knew about the threat all of Westeros is facing.

-I would assume as his right hand, Davos and Stannis discussed the topic of the army of the dead and the threat it posed

-Davos recognizes Jon as a leader, and not just a leader, but one who knows of the threat and has actually faced the threat on numerous occasions

-Davos, upon seeing Jon killed, realizes that no one is around to unite any kind of force, whether it be the night's watch, the wildlings, the North as a son of a Stark. Snow represents all of these things to Davos.

-I would think Davos recognized that the best chance for Westeros at that point would have been Jon Snow.

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35 minutes ago, mykeuva said:

As for why Davos would try to bring Jon back to life, my thoughts:

-It was pretty apparent that Stannis recognized the threat of the army of the dead. I believe there were a couple mentions by Stannis, but the one that I remember right now is where he asked Sam to keep reading about them. Stannis knew about the threat all of Westeros is facing.

-I would assume as his right hand, Davos and Stannis discussed the topic of the army of the dead and the threat it posed

-Davos recognizes Jon as a leader, and not just a leader, but one who knows of the threat and has actually faced the threat on numerous occasions

-Davos, upon seeing Jon killed, realizes that no one is around to unite any kind of force, whether it be the night's watch, the wildlings, the North as a son of a Stark. Snow represents all of these things to Davos.

-I would think Davos recognized that the best chance for Westeros at that point would have been Jon Snow.

Well, if Davos knows about and understands the threat of an army of zombies risen from death, it makes even less sense that he's so keen on doing just that. 

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7 hours ago, TepidHands said:

There is the small matter of getting the next book out...:whip:

If there is only time for one, the books should wait - they are a less widely embraced and less profitable medium. Far more people watch the show than what read the books. GRRM surely knows this and knows that his writing would have more chance of being enjoyed if it's for HBO than his publisher.

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21 minutes ago, ummester said:

If there is only time for one, the books should wait - they are a less widely embraced and less profitable medium. Far more people watch the show than what read the books. GRRM surely knows this and knows that his writing would have more chance of being enjoyed if it's for HBO than his publisher.

What do you mean with "if there is only time for one"? One book, one episode, what? And his writing has more chance of being enjoyed if it's for HBO? What? 

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Just now, kissdbyfire said:

What do you mean with "if there is only time for one"? One book, one episode, what? And his writing has more chance of being enjoyed if it's for HBO? What? 

I meant if he wrote episode scripts, or at least proof read them - then, seeing as the show has a far greater audience than the books will ever have - more people could appreciate it.

That said, when you mentioned time, it made me realise that he probably can't even proof read 10 episode scripts in a year, such is the speed he writes at :D

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10 minutes ago, ummester said:

I meant if he wrote episode scripts, or at least proof read them - then, seeing as the show has a far greater audience than the books will ever have - more people could appreciate it.

That said, when you mentioned time, it made me realise that he probably can't even proof read 10 episode scripts in a year, such is the speed he writes at :D

But what good would it do if he proof read the scripts? I mean, it's madness to even think that a proper author would set aside his own work to proof read tv scripts written by others, but what if he did? Wouldn't change anything b/c the main problem is the plot, the ideas. And it's not like Martin hasn't warned Mr Benioff and Mr Weiss about the dangers of changing things without thinking about the consequences for the story later on...

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2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But what good would it do if he proof read the scripts? I mean, it's madness to even think that a proper author would set aside his own work to proof read tv scripts written by others, but what if he did? Wouldn't change anything b/c the main problem is the plot, the ideas. And it's not like Martin hasn't warned Mr Benioff and Mr Weiss about the dangers of changing things without thinking about the consequences for the story later on...

ASoIaF evolved into Game of Thrones. Game of Thrones is the evolution of Martin's own work. The plot and ideas are Martins - they are still telling Martin's story, or whatever story was in his head when he sold it. The execution is just less than perfect.

Martin has also changed things himself. With these comments Martin is being nitpicky about issues that may not be D&Ds fault. For instance, Barristan probably died in show because Peter Dinklage is popular and made money talk for HBO - neither Martin nor D&D could control that, I believe.

It seems like something has happened behind the scenes that has made people spit the dummy at each other and diverge - and I'd wager it's more than just Martin and D&D disagreeing, I think D&D idolised Martin. It's more likely the ego of actors, or the financial interests of HBO execs.

 

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47 minutes ago, ummester said:

ASoIaF evolved into Game of Thrones. Game of Thrones is the evolution of Martin's own work. The plot and ideas are Martins - they are still telling Martin's story, or whatever story was in his head when he sold it. The execution is just less than perfect.

Martin has also changed things himself. With these comments Martin is being nitpicky about issues that may not be D&Ds fault. For instance, Barristan probably died in show because Peter Dinklage is popular and made money talk for HBO - neither Martin nor D&D could control that, I believe.

It seems like something has happened behind the scenes that has made people spit the dummy at each other and diverge - and I'd wager it's more than just Martin and D&D disagreeing, I think D&D idolised Martin. It's more likely the ego of actors, or the financial interests of HBO execs.

 

I'm sorry, but "GoT is the evolution of Martin's work" is where you lost me. But then you lost me some more because changes do have implications further down the line, and that's why the story on GoT is often nonsensical and the whole thing feels like a completely disjointed mess. And that's not on Martin. Anyways, this is totally OT so I'll leave it at that.

To end on topic, yes, I thought the resurrection was extremely underwhelming. 

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14 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'm sorry, but "GoT is the evolution of Martin's work" is where you lost me. But then you lost me some more because changes do have implications further down the line, and that's why the story on GoT is often nonsensical and the whole thing feels like a completely disjointed mess. And that's not on Martin. Anyways, this is totally OT so I'll leave it at that.

I think you are viewing the situation with a bias, or prejudice in favour of Martin, It's ok, your a person and people are often swayed by their emotional investments - but its not truly open minded.

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36 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'm sorry, but "GoT is the evolution of Martin's work" is where you lost me. But then you lost me some more because changes do have implications further down the line, and that's why the story on GoT is often nonsensical and the whole thing feels like a completely disjointed mess. And that's not on Martin. Anyways, this is totally OT so I'll leave it at that.

To end on topic, yes, I thought the resurrection was extremely underwhelming. 

Why do you watch the show? I honestly don't understand since you hate it so much. 

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6 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Why do you watch the show? I honestly don't understand since you hate it so much. 

I would like to share, as someone who now hates the show, why I still watch it. 

1. It's like watching a train wreck, it's a horrible thing,  but  as per human nature, I just can't turn away. 

2. Got used to be, and is supposed to be an adaption of one of my favorite stories ever. At first I watched it for that reason, how awesome to have your favorite books adapted to a visual medium. Unfortunately, D&D have ruined that for me. So as a  fan of Asoiaf, I feel a desire to know how D&D are butchering this story, as well as a right to voice my displeasure with it.  

3. As ubsurd as I now know it is, a small part of me still hopes against hope that the show will get back to being a quality adaption, and away from being a show about cheap shocks, juvenile dick jokes and gratuitous sex and nudity. 

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I can understand a book lover thinking the books are far superior - you will always have a deeper affinity for a story and world you have to use your imagination to connect with.

What I can't understand is the demonising of D&D. A big budget production like GoTs has the input of hundreds of executives and artisians. Demonising D&D seems a little narrow minded, or spoilt or something. It would be more correct to say HBO has ruined ASoIaF for you than D&D.

What if, when it's all finished, there is a documentary released about the production. What if this documentary describes GRRM and Peter Dinklage having a falling out over Dinklage not reading the books and saying that his Tyrion was better, or something. What if D&D tried to get them to see eye to eye for the benefit of the story and production but they were both too pig headed and couldn't reconcile. Would book lovers still blame D&D?

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23 minutes ago, ummester said:

I can understand a book lover thinking the books are far superior - you will always have a deeper affinity for a story and world you have to use your imagination to connect with.

What I can't understand is the demonising of D&D. A big budget production like GoTs has the input of hundreds of executives and artisians. Demonising D&D seems a little narrow minded, or spoilt or something. It would be more correct to say HBO has ruined ASoIaF for you than D&D.

What if, when it's all finished, there is a documentary released about the production. What if this documentary describes GRRM and Peter Dinklage having a falling out over Dinklage not reading the books and saying that his Tyrion was better, or something. What if D&D tried to get them to see eye to eye for the benefit of the story and production but they were both too pig headed and couldn't reconcile. Would book lovers still blame D&D?

Have you not seen the quotes and interviews with D&D, I'm quite confident that they are to blame. The ignorant, smug, and non sensible things they have said are countless. 

Eta: As well as numerous offensive statements. 

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6 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Have you not seen the quotes and interviews with D&D, I'm quite confident that they are to blame. The ignorant, smug, and non sensible things they have said are countless. 

I have never interpreted them that way - I see them just as a couple of dudes that started really loving the material and now seem less interested.

Why I raised GRRM and Dinklage is that Dinklage always seems smug and arrogant to me in interviews since Tyrion has become popular (just like Russel Crowe became a tosser after Gladiator, sometimes things go to people's heads :D ) and GRRM has always seemed a bit defensive and quick to annoyance. 

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6 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Why do you watch the show? I honestly don't understand since you hate it so much. 

People can watch what they like for whatever reasons they wish, we don't all have to be fanboys.

I can't stand the show but I watch it because I don't want to read spoilers elsewhere which is bound to happen considering its popularity. It has already happened once this season because it's on tv a day later in the UK. 

Back on topic - as mentioned everything surrounding the resurrection didn't make sense including Davos' motivation. I don't know why Mel didn't simply do the same spell as Thoros did back in season 3, I'll have to watch it again to compare. 

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