Joe Abercrombie: The Collected Works (and in what order to read them) SPOILERS

[red snow]

1 hour ago, HowdyGareth Bale said:

 I would also like to challenge the notion that Threetrees, the Dogman, and Harding Grimm wouldn't have followed Logen because of his actions as the Bloody Nine. Crunden Craw was able to second for Black Dow because of the situation he found himself in. Craw is probably the most moral out of all the bunch of murderers that we read about in the North, yet he aligns himself with the most despicable and feared man in the region out of his sense of duty. 

 I can also easily see how all of these guys would have found a respect for Logan after following him. When he wasn't on a killing spree, he was a pretty good dude. It was only after things got red that you had to stay away from him so as not to go back to the mud. (I loved typing that last sentence... Thanks Joe.)

I don't have an issue with following, it's more the fact Dogman, etc appeared to respect and admire Logen. That's perfectly understandable based on the character we saw when not in B9 mode but in "made a monster" I didn't see any evidence of the Logen we know. Maybe what we saw was a mixture of Logen and his B9 mode? Which is a more directed rage/nastiness as opposed to the blind rage of B9? I doubt he was the kind of person you hung out with and took note of his wise sayings when he was like this.

It's funny how Black Dow's attitude towards Logen now feels the most apt. He hated him but respected Logen was the strongest. It also seems like Black Dow wasn't as unstable as Logen. Again, Shivers filled the Logen role of being the mad dog heavy hitter.

[Howdyphillip]

2 minutes ago, red snow said:

I don't have an issue with following, it's more the fact Dogman, etc appeared to respect and admire Logen. That's perfectly understandable based on the character we saw when not in B9 mode but in "made a monster" I didn't see any evidence of the Logen we know. Maybe what we saw was a mixture of Logen and his B9 mode? Which is a more directed rage/nastiness as opposed to the blind rage of B9? I doubt he was the kind of person you hung out with and took note of his wise sayings when he was like this.

It's funny how Black Dow's attitude towards Logen now feels the most apt. He hated him but respected Logen was the strongest. It also seems like Black Dow wasn't as unstable as Logen. Again, Shivers filled the Logen role of being the mad dog heavy hitter.

The respect and admiration for Logen continues through the series despite his propensity for murder. In Red Country, he went to a parlay with Ghosts, and after a settlement had been worked out with Shy, he brutally butchered all of them. That didn't stop Dab Sweet from having a vast respect for Logen as a man, even though he was a first hand witness to the carnage, and the victim was one of his oldest acquaintances. 

 Logen, the man was someone that always had people respect him. He was a philosopher of sorts. He was a natural leader. I think all throughout the series, people held that part of him high enough that they were able to disregard his penchant for violence. Also, violence was one of the things respected most in the North, so having the Dogman look past it is extremely believable to me. He was a murderer as well.

[red snow]

17 minutes ago, HowdyGareth Bale said:

The respect and admiration for Logen continues through the series despite his propensity for murder. In Red Country, he went to a parlay with Ghosts, and after a settlement had been worked out with Shy, he brutally butchered all of them. That didn't stop Dab Sweet from having a vast respect for Logen as a man, even though he was a first hand witness to the carnage, and the victim was one of his oldest acquaintances. 

 Logen, the man was someone that always had people respect him. He was a philosopher of sorts. He was a natural leader. I think all throughout the series, people held that part of him high enough that they were able to disregard his penchant for violence. Also, violence was one of the things respected most in the North, so having the Dogman look past it is extremely believable to me. He was a murderer as well.

Good points. It could be that if you experienced nice Logen you'd jump through hoops to try and make excuses for his B9 excesses. The Dogman not being that nice a person is also interesting. The "heroes" in this series do have much more in common with the heroism seen in the iliad where heroic doesn't equate to being a nice person but being good at killing people and winning battles.

[red snow]

I'd actually love to read a short story of Logen in one of his fights with his crew. It'd be really interesting to see his mindsrt when he spared them. I always thought it meant he was fighting them in non- B9 mode but maybe he was just trying to surround himself by those most likely to take him down if need be? As in if they put up a good fight he spared them and just killed them if they were rubbish.

[writtenangel]

I always assumed that the B9 was affecting his personality somewhat, controlling his emotions and actions even in ways he couldn't perceive. He mentions in the First Law trilogy situations where he blacks out or where he sees his hands move but has no control over what he's doing. My interpretation of MaM is that Logen was just hopped up on his own hype and that the B9 is feeding on the death and getting stronger and stronger until the line is getting blurrier and blurrier; which is why at times he seems normal then at times he seems demonic. 

I especially liked the ending though. "Changed my mind." heh. 

[mormont]

On 12/06/2016 at 5:54 PM, Let's Get Kraken said:

It makes sense for the Dogman to have stuck by Logen for so long, because he knew him before Logen and Bethod made each other monsters.

As to the rest, I think there are two reasons that Logen's crew didn't have an issue following him, and indeed had great affection and admiration for him on some cases.

First, it goes back to Craw's whole mantra of doing the right thing. Logen was the boss and you stick by your chief. Dow said in The Heroes that Craw reminded him of Threetrees, and Threetrees himself was reluctant to take on Shivers because it went against his principles of sticking by your chief and not switching sides.

Second, I think that it goes back to the duality of Logen's nature. Yes, as we see in Made a Monster he could be a villain at times, but at others he can also be very heroic. He's willing to put his life on the line for those close to him. And remember, aside from the Dogman, he showed mercy to each of the men who followed him even though they were doing their best to kill him. In fact, we find out in The Last Argument of Kings that Bethod wanted Logen to kill Threetrees, but Logen spared him anyway.

Say one thing for Logen Ninefingers, say he's complicated.

But again, as much sense as these two explanations may make, they're not what actually happens.

The band are not sticking by Logen because of the situation they find themselves in or because it's the right thing to do. They don't express any reservations or reluctance, apart from arguably Dow: and they don't feel any relief that Logen's no longer around (rather the reverse). They don't even have mixed feelings, regret at the loss of the wise and brave side of Logen mixed with relief at the fact that the unpredictable B9 side is gone. And they definitely don't think about Logen like Craw thinks about Dow. These explanations are fine - but they don't fit the facts.

[Howdyphillip]

26 minutes ago, Emre Mor-mont said:

But again, as much sense as these two explanations may make, they're not what actually happens.

The band are not sticking by Logen because of the situation they find themselves in or because it's the right thing to do. They don't express any reservations or reluctance, apart from arguably Dow: and they don't feel any relief that Logen's no longer around (rather the reverse). They don't even have mixed feelings, regret at the loss of the wise and brave side of Logen mixed with relief at the fact that the unpredictable B9 side is gone. And they definitely don't think about Logen like Craw thinks about Dow. These explanations are fine - but they don't fit the facts.

 Why would they express relief that Logan wasn't around? They have obviously reconciled the fact that he has spells as a viscous killer, and they have all proven themselves to have the capacity for that as well. Considering that is how one gets a name in the North, it is perfectly understandable to me that when thinking about their traveling companion, they forgive the brutality and remember the leader.

 Even when you take people who were not from the North and associate them with Logen, the results are consistently the same. I used Dab Sweet as an example in my last post, but Shy may be an even better example. Even after traveling together and witnessing some of the most gruesome things that Logen did in any of the stories, she still firmly stood by his side. He even attacked her and Ro in a fit of madness, and she still came around to trusting him and relying on him. 

 I find that Logen/ Bloody Nine was a character that was consistently written about throughout the series, including in his short story in the Sharp Ends. He is a butcher and mad man in circumstances that has a propensity to draw people in to trust and rely upon. The later ability is so strong, that he is almost universally forgiven for the former. 

[mormont]

5 hours ago, HowdyGareth Bale said:

 Why would they express relief that Logan wasn't around?

Because apparently he was an unpredictable and dangerous man. A killer in the heat of battle is one thing; MAM's psychotic break is quite another. It's not brutality, it's pure insanity. No sensible person could truly feel safe around him, knowing of that incident.

5 hours ago, HowdyGareth Bale said:

They have obviously reconciled the fact that he has spells as a viscous killer, and they have all proven themselves to have the capacity for that as well.

Again, what happens in MAM is not something any of the band have proven themselves to be capable of, or to be OK with. We can surmise that Black Dow might be, but even that's honestly an assumption, not a proven fact.

3 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Well first off, that post was in regards to how they felt about Logen when they first began following him. I think in the intervening years between Made a Monster and The Blade Itself there was plenty of time for genuine feelings of trust and friendship to develop. Logen said multiple times during the first book that it had been a long time since he was the Bloody-Nine.

But in response, I'd point out that this incident isn't something you just put behind you like a drunken squabble. It's on a whole different level. You don't just make up with someone who calmly plays with the entrails of a prisoner he just murdered in cold blood.

We don't even know if the incident in MAM is the B9, by the way. It doesn't appear so, to me, as the B9 isn't usually capable of planned murder, just of mayhem. He kills whoever's in front of him, uncaring of anything else. At the very least, this is a very different manifestation. Of course the point is moot, since the band don't know the B9 as a separate consciousness as we do.

[Maithanet]

On 6/14/2016 at 5:13 PM, Let's Get Kraken said:

You're also assuming that the exact nature of what Logen did was widely known. All that we ever hear is that he butchered the guy and nailed his head to Bethod's standard. The more gruesome details, him being naked, playing with the entrails, etc, Bethod probably tried to keep hushed.

Plus, you have Bethod as the enabler, to proudly say that he wanted Logen to kill Rattleshirt's son.  That gives a lot of cover to guys like Threetrees or Dogman that while Logen may be a brutal guy, he is just a brutal guy following orders, and they've all been there.  I think it is quite realistic that Dogman didn't know the true depths of Logen's bloody nature (although he probably thought that he did). 

[Flashman]

On 14.6.2016 at 11:13 PM, Let's Get Kraken said:

I think you're underestimating just how much violence is an accepted part of life in the North. Bethod hung dozens of prisoners from the walls of his city with their entrails hanging out. Dow burned prisoners alive after they surrendered. Shivers stabbed an unarmed prisoner like 30 times just for running his mouth off. All three men are respected and even admired by those that follow them (well Dow and Bethod at least).

You're also assuming that the exact nature of what Logen did was widely known. All that we ever hear is that he butchered the guy and nailed his head to Bethod's standard. The more gruesome details, him being naked, playing with the entrails, etc, Bethod probably tried to keep hushed.

I think, that it might not have been Ninefingers, who killed Rattleneck's son in "Made a Monster". Yoru Sulfur killed him to make Bethod an ally/pawn of Bayaz.

At the start of the story Yoru Sulfur appears and is very eager to make Bethod an ally/pawn of Bayaz. But Bethod is making peace with Rattleneck, so he does not need their help. Yoru does, what he does best. To keep the war going, he kills Rattleneck's son while masquerading als Ninefingers. He is a shapeshifter after all. He masquerades as Ninefingers, because everybody knows he does stuff like that and fears him, so nobody will ask any questions. After the deed is done, there will be no peace and Bethod will propably ask Bayaz for help. From LAOK we know he did. 

Logen propably thought he killed the son, while he was the Bloody Nine and that's the reason he does not remember it.

It is the same move Yoru used to keep the Union-Ghurkul-War going. Only that time it was Prince Raynault he killed.

[Maithanet]

Just finished Sharp Ends, and on the whole it left me a bit underwhelmed.  I felt like short stories were not playing to Abercrombie's strengths.  In particular it seemed like they were almost held back by the characters that we already knew, particularly the ones we knew well from the original trilogy.  The opening Glokta story was really repetitive, just pages of discussion of what a magnificent bastard he was.  For a short story, that kind of wasted space is really unfortunate.

The best stories were Some Desperado, Two's Company and Hell.  Two's Company is a pretty hilarious story, good to see Whirrun again. 

[peterbound]

42 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Speculating on the state of a torture victim's penis feels very "Theon Greyjoy 2011" to me, but I've been wondering about something. Do we think that Glokta was castrated in Gurkhul? He mentions having to sit down and pee "like a woman", but I wasn't sure if that was in reference to his leg or... something else.

I thought he was castrated.  Can't say why I thought that, and i've only read the whole series of books twice, but I always assumed that why he had to sit down.  

[red snow]

4 hours ago, peterbound said:

I thought he was castrated.  Can't say why I thought that, and i've only read the whole series of books twice, but I always assumed that why he had to sit down.  

Not sure if it's absent but it's not working as well. He also doesn't appear to have much bladder and bowel control so he was well worked over. It's pretty horrific but it does serve the point that torture will break people eventually. Given Glokta's attitude in the short story (and how his stubborness still remains) I suspect he held out quite a while.

[SeanF]

7 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Speculating on the state of a torture victim's penis feels very "Theon Greyjoy 2011" to me, but I've been wondering about something. Do we think that Glokta was castrated in Gurkhul? He mentions having to sit down and pee "like a woman", but I wasn't sure if that was in reference to his leg or... something else.

Yes, I think he was castrated.  I remember at one point he was told "Go fuck yourself" and thinks "if only." 

I think it's even worse than that though.  Remember how he threatened Goyle with cutting away the flesh between his fruits and arse.  I think that's what he suffered, which is why he can't control his bowels.

[red snow]

fun lunch time reading...

[KiDisaster]

So I've been re-reading the trilogy and I'm about halfway through LAoK. Noticed something in the first book that I'd completely forgotten about: Ninefingers can breathe fucking fire! 

Well, not breathe fire as such but it's explained that fires have spirits and Logen (presumably being tied into his spirit-speaking abilities) can hold said spirits under his tongue to start new fires. He then ends up spitting the flame in the face of some baddie to set him alight. Seems a useful little trick, even just for starting campfires more easily, and one I'd certainly want to keep up my sleeve. But he never does it or mentions it again

I assume that somewhere between writing the first book and the second Abercrombie just decided that giving Logen "dragon breath" along with his whole berserker thing and the spirit talking was just too much (and I'd have to agree) but by that point maybe the first book was already published so it was too late to change it. Anyway, just thought this was kinda funny. Apologies if it's already been pointed out. I suspect it has but searching didn't turn anything up. 

I'm enjoying the books even more the second time round I think. 

[redjako]

On 5/24/2016 at 3:20 PM, mormont said:

The Bloody Nine also seems to be more articulate than Logen. The prose from its POV is almost poetic, which isn't what I would expect from someone in a berserker rage.

I always felt like the Bloody Nine's scenes shows, if anything, he's an "earth" demon. Rides wind, finds little nooks and pushes roots into them (fighting The Fear big guy). Same with cutting through whordes of flatheads. Everything is very earth-elemental, even the rage is like lava.

One of my favorite characters to read (I'll re-read those chapters just for fun).

Speaking of Flatheads, I had a re-read of the first trilogy, and they just literally fell off of being a plot point mid-way through the books. I feel like Joe was going for a Bakker Sranc type theme, and just scrapped it.

Its part of the North coming South for the first book, then, Logen and Ferro go through one of the flatheads camps, then Junes and whatnot discuss them at some point as being weapons, but thats a loose end that is annoying to me.

[red snow]

11 hours ago, KiDisaster said:

So I've been re-reading the trilogy and I'm about halfway through LAoK. Noticed something in the first book that I'd completely forgotten about: Ninefingers can breathe fucking fire! 

Well, not breathe fire as such but it's explained that fires have spirits and Logen (presumably being tied into his spirit-speaking abilities) can hold said spirits under his tongue to start new fires. He then ends up spitting the flame in the face of some baddie to set him alight. Seems a useful little trick, even just for starting campfires more easily, and one I'd certainly want to keep up my sleeve. But he never does it or mentions it again

I assume that somewhere between writing the first book and the second Abercrombie just decided that giving Logen "dragon breath" along with his whole berserker thing and the spirit talking was just too much (and I'd have to agree) but by that point maybe the first book was already published so it was too late to change it. Anyway, just thought this was kinda funny. Apologies if it's already been pointed out. I suspect it has but searching didn't turn anything up. 

I'm enjoying the books even more the second time round I think. 

It's maybe a homage to Tyrion's acrobatics.

The talking to spirits is also fuel for why the B9 may be some form of possession.

[KiDisaster]

49 minutes ago, red snow said:

It's maybe a homage to Tyrion's acrobatics.

The talking to spirits is also fuel for why the B9 may be some form of possession.

Heh, another thing I completely forgot about. I should re-read ASOIAF. It's been five years. 

I like the idea that Logen was showing off his spirit-spitting skills to his friend as a boy, when they were out the first time he became TB9, and accidentally swallowed some nasty fire spirit or something. 

[redjako]

On 7/20/2016 at 10:22 PM, Let's Get Kraken said:

I feel like the Shanka will likely play a part in the next trilogy. Remember they were breeding in the tunnels in Red Country, and then the Dragon People were all killed before they could go down and deal with them. Maybe they'll overrun the Far Country?

They could. My point was more directed around the first trilogy, where the Shanka were pretty much disregarded.