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Will Jon remember Ghost? (possible spoilers)


ravenous reader

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Having been predictably resurrected, could the unexpected twist for Jon be that he won't be restored unchanged? 

GRRM has previously remarked on how he disapproves of happy endings for the returned (e.g. Gandalf coming back as the White).   And no-one resurrected thus far has come back without a cost, neither in the HBO show nor in the books: 

Spoiler

e.g. Drogo returns to Dany in a vegetative state; Lady Stoneheart returns hardened and voiceless with none of Catelyn's redeeming qualities; Ser Waymar Royce returns as a wight and promptly kills his former Night's Watch colleague; Beric returns having lost his memories, including rather sadly those of his loved ones:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Arya VII

"Can I dwell on what I scarce remember? I held a castle on the Marches once, and there was a woman I was pledged to marry, but I could not find that castle today, nor tell you the color of that woman's hair. Who knighted me, old friend? What were my favorite foods? It all fades. Sometimes I think I was born on the bloody grass in that grove of ash, with the taste of fire in my mouth and a hole in my chest. Are you my mother, Thoros?"

 

 

Especially given what happened to Beric -- the previous example of someone resurrected by the Lord of Light -- it's possible that Jon won't recognize Ghost, let alone Sansa who is on her way to see him.  (Any potential parentage reveal is also going to fall flat if Jon's identity is a hollow shell of his former self).

Should he not recognize Ghost, it's conceivable that he might instead be afraid of the big wolf advancing on him when he awakes, and tragically try to defend himself against Ghost, resulting in Ghost's death.  This might be the 'death pays for life' equation that some were expecting to unfold.  Given Ghost's loyalty to Jon, I doubt Ghost would retaliate if Jon were to wound him.  Where is Longclaw by the way...Is it still with Davos, or did he leave it in the room?

Please feel free to speculate (until Sunday at least!) on how you think Jon will react to Ghost on awakening, how he will react to the others, and how you think Jon might be changed for the worse (or better)...

Might it end up as a bitter case of 'be careful what you wish for...' ? Will we ironically be made to regret Jon's return?

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The thing about the death-> resurrection with each character is that they are not all the same. They don't die the same, or under the same scenarios, and they (or few) are resurrected the same. Within each death and rebirth (?) there is a lesson to learn that is different from the other. Lady Stoneheart =/= Jon Snow.

Show Beric was similar enough to Real Beric and both were brought back six times and when we saw Beric on screen he was still very human, not a zombie or mean, however, he was missing a lot of memory and that bothered him. Jon being brought back once... if it the same Beric process that brought him back... should still be very human at the core.

If he warged in to Ghost, then I don't know that he really "died" the same way as anyone else and it could be the Old Gods that brought him back. Jon recognizes Ghost as being "of the Old Gods" on page. On screen, I'm not sure but I don't think he will be scared of him.

As far as the show, it appeared that Ghost was sleeping next to Jon when the room cleared of other people, and just before Jon woke, Ghost woke first and looked to Jon. This may be the first Jon-warg we get??? Until we see it on screen, it is speculation.

I don't see why he won't recognize Ghost. He should and if he doesn't, weellll, then there are bigger issues to take in to consideration.

And the good news is that Jon did not have bright blue eyes! :thumbsup:

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1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The thing about the death-> resurrection with each character is that they are not all the same. They don't die the same, or under the same scenarios, and they (or few) are resurrected the same. Within each death and rebirth (?) there is a lesson to learn that is different from the other. Lady Stoneheart =/= Jon Snow.

Shoe Beric was similar enough to Real Beric and both were brought back six times and when we saw Beric on screen he was still very human, not a zombie or mean, however, he was missing a lot of memory and that bothered him. Jon being brought back once... if it the same Beric process that brought him back... should still be very human at the core.

If he warged in to Ghost, then I don't know that he really "died" the same way as anyone else and it could be the Old Gods that brought him back.

As far as the show, it appeared that Ghost was sleeping next to Jon when the room cleared of other people, and just before Jon woke, Ghost woke first and looked to Jon. This may be the first Jon-warg we get??? Until we see it on screen, it is speculation.

I don't see why he won't recognize Ghost. He should and if he doesn't, weellll, then there are bigger issues to take in to consideration.

And the good news is that Jon did not have bright blue eyes! :thumbsup:

I agreed. Especially given the fact that Jon was immediately breathing heavily after his "resurrection". I don't recall Beric breathing after his resurrection. 

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7 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

e.g. Drogo returns to Dany in a vegetative state; Lady Stoneheart returns hardened and voiceless with none of Catelyn's redeeming qualities; Ser Waymar Royce returns as a wight and promptly kills his former Night's Watch colleague; Beric returns having lost his memories, including rather sadly those of his loved ones:

 

 This might be the 'death pays for life' equation that some were expecting to unfold.  Given Ghost's loyalty to Jon, I doubt Ghost would retaliate if Jon were to wound him.  Where is Longclaw by the way...Is it still with Davos, or did he leave it in the room?

Please feel free to speculate (until Sunday at least!) on how you think Jon will react to Ghost on awakening, how he will react to the others, and how you think Jon might be changed for the worse (or better)...

Might it end up as a bitter case of 'be careful what you wish for...' ? Will we ironically be made to regret Jon's return?

I could be remembering this incorrectly, but I think the life has to be given first somewhat at the same time as the rebirth. A sort of immediate life force transfer.

Someone please feel free show otherwise.

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He will more or less be the same and would surely remember Ghost, how he died ect. I will refer to the quote of maester Aemon.. "Kill the boy...and let the man be born".. Taking that quote into account I would personally assume that he will seem older and wiser than he previously was.. Perhaps a little less merciful and innocent too. I don't see him just giving up on his desire to find out who he is and where he belongs either 

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I've always looked at the 'only death can pay for life' line as something on the show that wasn't tied to R'hllor, only MMD. Also with Thoros bringing Beric back 6 times without any life sacrifice, I didn't think it would be needed for Jon.

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11 minutes ago, Stannis Inc said:

He will more or less be the same and would surely remember Ghost, how he died ect. I will refer to the quote of maester Aemon.. "Kill the boy...and let the man be born".. Taking that quote into account I would personally assume that he will seem older and wiser than he previously was.. Perhaps a little less merciful and innocent too. I don't see him just giving up on his desire to find out who he is and where he belongs either 

Yee. Jon's gonna be ok, just a little meaner for it all. Less forgiving, a little icier. Maybe even more hair trigger in his temper after spending time in Ghost. (im in the camp that firmly believes he was chillin' in Ghost the whole time even on the show.) And he will remember everything even the stuff that happened after he died. (cuz he saw it as Ghost) Domes will be chomped. 

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2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:
10 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

This might be the 'death pays for life' equation that some were expecting to unfold.  Given Ghost's loyalty to Jon, I doubt Ghost would retaliate if Jon were to wound him.  Where is Longclaw by the way...Is it still with Davos, or did he leave it in the room?

Please feel free to speculate (until Sunday at least!) on how you think Jon will react to Ghost on awakening, how he will react to the others, and how you think Jon might be changed for the worse (or better)...

Might it end up as a bitter case of 'be careful what you wish for...' ? Will we ironically be made to regret Jon's return?

I could be remembering this incorrectly, but I think the life has to be given first somewhat at the same time as the rebirth. A sort of immediate life force transfer.

Someone please feel free show otherwise.

Thanks for your interest, Leech!  I always enjoy your insights.

I had an alternate thought as to the death-for-life exchange that may have transpired on the show.  The death in question (which I'll discuss below) occurred prior to the resurrection, but was followed by a substantial delay between the death and the resurrection, so not simultaneous.

Like Thoros, Melisandre was at her absolute psychic low, having lost faith in herself and her religion.  Utterly humbled and contrite, there was a purity in the act of trying to help another without causing harm to a third party, giving herself up to the Lord of Light completely with the word 'Please,' echoing GRRM's theme of falling before flying, or more accurately falling enabling flying.

However, on second thoughts, maybe the act wasn't that pure and a death may have been necessary, namely Balon's.  If you noticed, Balon's death scene immediately preceded Jon's resurrection.  Symbolically, we had both elements juxtaposed in that order -- a fall and a flight -- in Balon's fall off the bridge and Jon's being raised from the dead respectively.  Moreover, the screenwriters chose to draw our attention to the fact firstly that Balon was a king (when Balon brags to Yara about being the last of the 5 kings still standing), and secondly by implication perhaps reminding us that 3 of the others in the war of the 5 kings were 'helped' along by Melisandre (with her leeches and shadow baby).  Therefore, Balon's death represents Melisandre's final leech curse taking effect.  By this fire/blood magic (king's blood for a king), she'd initially intended to help Stannis as her Azor Ahai, perhaps indicating in its culmination following both Stannis's and Balon's deaths that Jon not Stannis is Azor Ahai.

What do you think of this theory? (I'll invent many theories just to spare direwolves!)

3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And the good news is that Jon did not have bright blue eyes! :thumbsup:

That's a good point!  One might ask why not...?!

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21 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Thanks for your interest, Leech!  I always enjoy your insights.

I had an alternate thought as to the death-for-life exchange that may have transpired on the show.  The death in question (which I'll discuss below) occurred prior to the resurrection, but was followed by a substantial delay between the death and the resurrection, so not simultaneous.

Like Thoros, Melisandre was at her absolute psychic low, having lost faith in herself and her religion.  Utterly humbled and contrite, there was a purity in the act of trying to help another without causing harm to a third party, giving herself up to the Lord of Light completely with the word 'Please,' echoing GRRM's theme of falling before flying, or more accurately falling enabling flying.

However, on second thoughts, maybe the act wasn't that pure and a death may have been necessary, namely Balon's.  If you noticed, Balon's death scene immediately preceded Jon's resurrection.  Symbolically, we had both elements juxtaposed in that order -- a fall and a flight -- in Balon's fall off the bridge and Jon's being raised from the dead respectively.  Moreover, the screenwriters chose to draw our attention to the fact firstly that Balon was a king (when Balon brags to Yara about being the last of the 5 kings still standing), and secondly by implication perhaps reminding us that 3 of the others in the war of the 5 kings were 'helped' along by Melisandre (with her leeches and shadow baby).  Therefore, Balon's death represents Melisandre's final leech curse taking effect.  By this fire/blood magic (king's blood for a king), she'd initially intended to help Stannis as her Azor Ahai, perhaps indicating in its culmination following both Stannis's and Balon's deaths that Jon not Stannis is Azor Ahai.

What do you think of this theory? (I'll invent many theories just to spare direwolves!)

That's a good point!  One might ask why not...?!

I am not ignoring you, I hope all is 100% between Jon and Ghost, but I have to fold laundry and attempt to sleep at some time, so I will have to give a better, more thorough answer tomorrow :cheers:

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I love the furry darlings :wub:!

I have my own pet theory about this which is little inspired on the Farseer theories of Robin Hobb. So I am going to put it in a spoiler tag

Spoiler

The protagonist (Fitz) has a sort of similar bond with his own wolf, Nighteyes. After some torture and stuff Fitz dies but goes then enjoy a sort of second life inside his wolf. He is brought back to life but during the first months after his resurrection he is kind of wolfish, ... He is not really human but a wolf. But his human side is in the end brought back. 

In ASOIAF we also know wargs does have a second life. Because Jon mentions Ghost in the end, he is probably going inside Ghost when he dies. Maybe his living inside Ghost might have as consequence he doesnt forget Ghost when he is brought back but he is actually much closer with his wolf, much more feral, much more wolfish? 

 

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My take on it is that, just as Beric (who wanted to keep King Robert's peace) and Cat (whose last thought was to kill the Freys and avenge her family), Jon-reborn will put all of his energy into fulfilling the "mission" he had just before he died and cling to this mission. 

I would assume he will be mostly unchanged, though maybe a little bit more ruthless, as memories of his siblings and of his former life will have faded a little bit (even if, imo, he will still remember them all, but he might not be as attached to them as he was before). 

Also, the episode 3 trailer

Spoiler

seems to imply that the wildlings and co will see Jon as "some sort of God" after his rebirth. So he will have a big army at his disposal, it seems.

 

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Hi folks, new poster here! I too have a pet theory, encompassing the whole plot of the rest of ASOIAF, a key part of which pertains to our Jon. Mind you, this theory concerns the future plots of the genius GRRM, not necessarily the lesser geniuses of D&D ;)

For me, it would be a cheap cliffhanger trick if resurrected Jon were to be the same as pre-resurrected Jon. there has to be a key change. This ties in with the way the key characters' er, characters have been developing in the books.

 

Dany - started off with deep ideals of justice, liberating slaves etc etc but her Mereen experience and the reversals elsewhere in Slavers Bay are turning her deeply cynical. She will reunite with her dragons and storm Westeros like the bloodthirsty power-crazy warlord she set out NOT to be.

Similarly Tyrion - deemed Saint Tyrion by some here owing to the superficiality of the show plot is actually undergoing a parallel journey, slowly becoming eaten up with hate. Sweet Sansa is 'growing up' - that girl's going to become a killer. 

Therefore, in keeping with what I perceive in the way ASOIAF develops, new-Jon has to be darker. It will become apparent only very gradually in TWOW; whilst D&D aren't doing patience in S6 in this case I think he will still need to come across as our hero at least until episode 10 if not into S7.

 

If my theory is right, as a corollary, some 'bad guys' need to turn good. I think a revived Sandor will foreshadow that. Right, here's where I get really crackpot - Westeros will turn out to be saved by ..... The Others. Bran will warg into them, find out their motivations and turn them. Whilst the greedy, power-hungry humans are playing their destructive game of thrones, a virulent strain of greyscale will arrive, possibly vis Connington (or Jorah in the show) and threaten to wipe everyone out. The 'ice' of The Others is the only antidote.

 

Thoughts? 

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19 hours ago, princess_snow said:

I find this if true very disappointing.

 

What part of it particularly struck you as disappointing?

When pressed for explanations, the writers and director have been deliberately evasive in their post-'Home' interviews, implying they have something crucial up their sleeves to do with the resurrection which will be revealed in due course!  That interview by Harington sounds rather incoherent and bumbling, leaving one of two possibilities:  either Harington has received incompetent direction regarding his character (unfortunately at this point not a remote possibility), or he is once again attempting not to spoil something important and doing an awful job at being Mr smooth...

 

On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 7:32 AM, Mayura said:

My take on it is that, just as Beric (who wanted to keep King Robert's peace) and Cat (whose last thought was to kill the Freys and avenge her family), Jon-reborn will put all of his energy into fulfilling the "mission" he had just before he died and cling to this mission. 

I would assume he will be mostly unchanged, though maybe a little bit more ruthless, as memories of his siblings and of his former life will have faded a little bit (even if, imo, he will still remember them all, but he might not be as attached to them as he was before). 

Also, the episode 3 trailer

  Reveal hidden contents

seems to imply that the wildlings and co will see Jon as "some sort of God" after his rebirth. So he will have a big army at his disposal, it seems.

 

They are walking a slippery slope with Jon's character:  On the one hand, it would be 'cheap' to bring back Jon without some sort of cost to the character, so one would expect an increased detachment at the expense of his former attachments.  On the other hand, should Jon emerge without much human shading, they also run the risk of the audience losing interest in the character.  Without our memories, our relationships, and our internal conflict, we are nothing:

Quote

'Our tragedy today is a general and universal physical fear so long sustained by now that we can even bear it. There are no longer problems of the spirit. There is only the question: When will I be blown up? Because of this, the young man or woman writing today has forgotten the problems of the human heart in conflict with itself which alone can make good writing because only that is worth writing about, worth the agony and the sweat.'

--William Faulkner, Nobel Prize banquet speech 1950

 

 

14 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Hi folks, new poster here!

Welcome to the forum!  I'm relatively new myself.  Actually, this was my first OP, so glad you responded.

14 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Therefore, in keeping with what I perceive in the way ASOIAF develops, new-Jon has to be darker

I agree, GRRM likes to muddy the waters and play with our allegiances.  Accordingly, the family he made us love at the start -- the Starks -- will be up for a bit of gleefully grim/GRRM deconstruction.  So, I'm convinced both Jon and Bran will become darker, at least before they become lighter.  

Regarding Sansa's dark turn, there's that bit of foreshadowing earlier in the show when Tyrion is asked if his wife Sansa would be capable of murdering someone (around the time of Joffrey's death), to which he answers she's 'not a killer...not yet anyway...' and even earlier 'Lady Stark, you may survive us yet!' 

Arya they're holding off on.  Watch the indignation if/when they corrupt that character (Meryn Trant doesn't count).  I've received some backlash myself on this forum when I dared to suggest Arya's character was complicated by certain weaknesses, for example that she too carried some responsibility in addition to the other parties involved for Mycah's and Lady's deaths at the Trident.  Whew!  No siree, Arya can do no wrong.  There's no other character -- not even Tyrion -- who can boast of such an intensely emotional following.  So if anyone is a 'saint,' it's 'Saint Arya'!  Come to think of it, that has to be the bittersweet ending, Arya dying.  I don't think there's another death (past, present or future) that could compete in shock value-- and that's saying a lot in this show!  The thing is if it happens too soon, the audience will abandon the show in droves, heartbroken and disgusted, and the ratings would plummet.  So, they'll leave Arya's death for last. 

Tyrion -- always been dark in the books; in interviews GRRM flat out describes him as a 'villain' which surprises most people.  Dinklage's interpretation, however, improves on the books, combining vulnerability and cynicism so he's less a caricature of the 'dastardly dwarf.'  Book or show, I hardly think murdering ones father and lover in cold blood makes one a 'saint'!  What people are picking up on is GRRM's partiality to Tyrion -- he's not saintly per se, but he's favored just because he's the character with whom GRRM most identifies, and with whom he's most in love (apart from Daenerys, with Arya a close third).  Yes, authors (and producers) fall in love with their own characters!  When it becomes too obvious, then the art suffers.  (Show-wise, not to forget that Dinklage has two Emmys, so he will get more screen time as a result!)

14 hours ago, Andy Ahmed said:

Westeros will turn out to be saved by ..... The Others

Given that we don't have enough information on who/what the Others are, I'm not sure I can offer any useful comment!  All I can say is there will be a twist in that the Others will turn out to have some kind of intrinsic connection to the Starks which will humanize the Others and make them more appealing, i.e. less 'other,' since the Starks have always been the protagonist family of the saga. 

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Difficult to say.  I think in the book that it is the use of warging that facilitates Jon's ability to be the one resurrected that does not lose a piece of himself.  If that is the case then likely D&D will skip over it and tv only viewers will be left wondering why he does not seem diminished.   The only comparison might be Beric that has been brought back 5x before we tune back into his situation.   I don't think they will keep killing Jon over and over.

D&D seem to be avoiding the idea that other starks can warg like it was typhus for some reason even though some will persist that this is what did happen although every such hint in the books was removed in the show.   I think this will be the same in S6E3 when Arya becomes more like daredevil then discovering warg ability....although I hope their is a cat

 

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Excellent lengthy response ravenous.

 

You quoted GRRM quoting Faulkner there; I'd like to add to that what he said in 2013:

Quote

Magic can ruin things. Magic should never be the solution. Magic can be part of the problem.

To me, if Jon returns much the same as before this will be utterly contradicted - assuming Mel was the one to revive/resurrect him. 

No, he has to be inherently different, and I think Ghost is the key. Jon's nature will become more wolf-like. Direwolves are not evil of course, but they do prey on the weak - Arya and Bran have both eaten human flesh in warg form. And they are violent. This needs to manifest in Jon - whether that turns him to the 'dark side' or not, I'm agnostic for now. I also think his deeper 'bonding' with Ghost will give him access to Rickon through Shaggydog and especially Bran through Summer (AND let's not forget Nymeria - this might be how Arya rejoins her family).

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14 hours ago, goomba said:

well, he definitely remembers :D 

And Kit Harington 'remembered' how to act!  Best aspect of the episode. 

15 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

No, he has to be inherently different, and I think Ghost is the key

The only difference I see in Jon is, as I said above, that Kit has upped his acting niveau!  Still don't like how they cut out Ghost interactions, since I'm pretty sure Ghost will play a larger role in Jon's return in the books.  At a bare minimum, they could have at least had Ghost trotting after Jon as he leaves Castle Black after the execution...

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