The Mountain vs. The Viper & the Hammer of the Waters (Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire 4)

[LmL]

On May 20, 2016 at 10:08 AM, Maester of Valyria said:

  The children of the forest called Dorne the Empty Land, and for good reason.

-TWOIAF, Dorne.

While I completely agree that the Breaking of the Arm by whatever means would have had profound impacts on the climate, it is certainly possible for a desert to have formed in Dorne naturally. This link contains an interesting (although slightly tongue-in-cheek) possible explanation.

Yes, absolutely. I'm just raising the possibility. Egypt was fertile and green 9,000 years ago. 

On May 20, 2016 at 10:08 AM, Maester of Valyria said:

I'm afraid that this is the thing that I find hardest to fully swallow: an exploding moon would not just set life on the planet back, it would utterly obliterate anything living that was larger than a rat. Humanity wouldn't just be decimated: it would be completely wiped out. The best example from Earth's history is the meteorite that wiped out the dinosaurs 65 million years ago: only the small mammals survived (for which all humans are thankful).

I addressed this already, but I took a look around and it seems the limit for survival of major life is between 3 - 5 mi diameter, and of course where it lands makes a big difference too. I think there is a comfortable range of "big, but not too big" for Martin to work with. Rememeber that we have no idea how long the LN lasted. If the sun went away for 3 years it would be a pretty damn big deal, you know? Enough to inspire myths and legends, and if the Others invaded too...

On May 20, 2016 at 10:08 AM, Maester of Valyria said:

The Children's very way of life was threatened: I imagine that at least a section of their society would have been willing to go to any lengths to stem the tide of invaders. However, this is predicated upon the breaking moon theory, which while I accept is extremely well substantiated by your research, is not my preferred explanation for the Breaking (I go for a sea level rise).

I can maybe buy the idea of a rebel group of children, but we have to go with what we have seen from the cotf on page.  They seem to be in harmony with the earth, singing its song, and they are at peace with their gradual decline. Bran notes that men would swear and oath and kill, but the cotf reaction is much different. The only motivation that I think makes sense  for them to cause mass bloodshed is to protect the earth, and the Hammer and the moon meteor disaster was just to damaging to the earth and the cycles of nature to be committed by them. We've seen absolutely nothing to indicate they can or even would do this. 

BTW I think there is abundant evidence of sea level rise and global warming anyway. The 1,000 islands, the drying up seas in the east (the Jogos Nhai even refer to a time "before the coming of the dry times" which is a pretty strong indicator things are drying up over there). I suspect Martin is simply aping planet earth's timeline, where we are still coming out of an ice age, and the worst of the cold broke about 10,000 years ago. I suspect before the arm was broken, with no warm water entering the Shivering Sea, the north of Westeros would have been colder. Everything above the Neck might have been the lands of winter, so to speak. 

On May 20, 2016 at 10:08 AM, Maester of Valyria said:

You've said it yourself: the chronology is not constrictive. I realise that this presents a problem, but I don't believe it to be insurmountable: perhaps it was simply the last throw of the dice for a desparate and dying race, or perhaps they wanted to do what you've been talking about and send a message to the First Men, but refrain from killing anyone or destroying valuable land in the process.

To be fair, we know very little about the full extent of the Children's powers. We also know (read 'strongly suspect') that it is possible to interfere with geological processes, as we see with the Doom of Valyria and possible Faceless Men involvement. I for one can't see the Faceless Men as having greater powers than the Children at their apex. Of course, time and lack of numbers may have diminished the Children's powers in the present day, but that's a different matter, and may even explain why they haven't made many grand displays of power: the power is no longer accessible to them, but it once was.

I think this is a false equivalency, comparing the Doom and the Faceless Men to the cotf. It's not a matter of who is stronger; but of different types of magic. The Doom is easy to explain - the Valyrians prevented any major volcanic eruptions on a volcanic peninsula for 5,000 years, and we are told they harnessed their fires for magical purposes. It's pretty clear the Valyrians maintained a kind of equilibrium wight he 14 flames, and that's not natural. That's a repression of the natural cycle, and all it would take is simple assassination of mages (as TWOIAF suggests) to cause a destabilization. They didn't need any magic at all, just murder, which is what they do. 

Now, the cotf do sing the songs of earth, so perhaps there is a sound which can trigger earthquakes.  That's the only way the Hammer even made any sense, and the logical thing to connect it with would be the idea of a magical horn. But no horn is mentioned in connection with the hammer. And the Hammer is said to have been "called down." And what do hammers do? They fall. Fall, and pound. Like sun-spears and falling bloodstones, bleeding stars. You know my rap here. 

Regardless, we have never been shown much at all about the extent of the cotf magic, so we really have no way of knowing what they can or cannot do. I'm simply pointing out that there is no evidence that they have any power like causing earthquakes, and TWOIAF even points out that the children were never said to posses that kind of power. 

Hell, why do the children need humans like Bran and Bloodraven anyway if they are greenseers too? Ever wondered about that? They must have limitations. 

On May 20, 2016 at 10:08 AM, Maester of Valyria said:

Why would the humans have adopted the practice of blood magic into their new religion if it wasn't already a constituent part of their new religion? We are told several times that powerful magic often requires blood.

When foreigners adopt a religion, they pretty much always modify it or mix it with their previous customs. My wife is Filipina, and let me tell you, the Filipino cocktail of animistic pagan magic and catholicism is truly amazing. It's well possible that the human sacrifice aspect was added by the First Men - and we don't know when, either - or held over from their previous practices.

It's highly possible that the cotf do practice blood magic, and that is indeed how you open a weirwood's terrified eyes. I know this is the most likely case - I'm pointing out that it's not really based on much, and should be questioned. 

The trees themselves seem tortured. They have bloody and burning hands, they weep blood, and they screaming silence. I really think the current weirwood situation is fucked up and twisted, and I believe there's a big mystery as to who carved the faces and why. 

On May 20, 2016 at 10:08 AM, Maester of Valyria said:

I think that by the time the Children decided to break the Arm they were desperate and willing to try anything. They weren't that concerned with damage to the earth anymore, not when their entire civilisation (as well as that of their 'brothers' the giants) was under threat. And while the Children don't come across as reckless and desperate now, the interval of thousands of years (be it two or ten or any number in between) may have something to do with that: now they are just resigned to their fate.

Maybe, but this is speculative and goes against everything we have seen from the children on page. One of the most defining aspects of their character is their acceptance of their fate. I don't think creatures with long lives who have existed for a million years are changing their entire ethnic personality 180 degrees like that in 10,000 years, myself. But who knows. 

On May 20, 2016 at 10:08 AM, Maester of Valyria said:

All the sites of the Black Stone are in coastal locations, with the exception of Yeen (which is by a river and was possibly supplied from the Isle of Toads) and Moat Cailin (debatable whether it even is a site of Black Stone). I think that the fact that the Children wanted to sweep away the whole Neck means that they weren't so concerned about its width: the 'Hammer' could just work its way inland. This tallies with my belief that the Hammer was the Waters (rising sea levels again).

Of course we know that the Children didn't build structures. However if you assume that Moat Cailin is not Black Stone and is, as it appears to be, basalt, then it becomes conceivable that it was built by the First Men. You might then postulate that the Children took the castle by one means or another (crannogmen help maybe?), and then used it as a defensible base from which to work their magics.

While of course the cause of destruction may have been a meteorite, could it not also have been the ravages of time, thousands of years of neglect, and the environmental problem of being situated in a swamp? This would seem to fit the ruined-but-still-not-completely-obliterated state of the castle.

No, I don't think it can be anything other than a very traumatic event. Look at the descriptions:

AGOT - Just beyond, through the mists, she glimpsed the walls and towers of Moat Cailin … or what remained of them. Immense blocks of black basalt, each as large as a crofter’s cottage, lay scattered and tumbled like a child’s wooden blocks, half-sunk in the soft boggy soil. Nothing else remained of a curtain wall that had once stood as high as Winterfell’s. The wooden keep was gone entirely, rotted away a thousand years past, with not so much as a timber to mark where it had stood. All that was left of the great stronghold of the First Men were three towers … three where there had once been twenty, if the taletellers could be believed.

It looked as if some great beast had taken a bite out of the crenellations along the tower top, and spit the rubble across the bog.

ADWD - Where once a mighty curtain wall had stood, only scattered stones remained, blocks of black basalt so large it must once have taken a hundred men to hoist them into place. Some had sunk so deep into the bog that only a corner showed; others lay strewn about like some god’s abandoned toys, cracked and crumbling, spotted with lichen. Last night’s rain had left the huge stones wet and glistening, and the morning sunlight made them look as if they were coated in some fine black oil.

These huge, gargantuan blacks are strewn about by either a great beast or a god. All across the bog. They didn't even just fall over - it's like the castle exploded. 

As for the First Men building something like this... nope. At least, if they did build it, it's completely unique and has nothing in common with any other structure in Westeros, particularly the crappy ring forts the First Men built. Those blacks are as big as a cottage! And you could never have hoisted blocks that big to build an 80 ft wall in a swamp! Which means this castle predates the Hammer and the Long Night. This is very old Westerosi history, and again, the First Men did absolutely nothing anywhere near this advanced in terms of architecture. Moat Cailin is a total anomaly, and the only thing which is similar is Yeen, whose massive square blacks are so heavy it would take a "dozen elephants" to move them.

If Moat Cailin doesn't scream out "men before the First Men," then I don't know what does. 

On May 20, 2016 at 10:08 AM, Maester of Valyria said:

Interesting idea about Storm's End, but could you remind me why would the human greenseers have wanted to break the moon either (I'm having a brain-fade on your explanation for that)?

I talked about this in my other response, but basically it's the Prometheus story. Stealing the fire of the heavens, trying to be like god, biting the apple, etc. 

On May 20, 2016 at 10:08 AM, Maester of Valyria said:

Also, what's your theory on the Others, and if they aren't natural then mightn't the Children have created them as a weapon against the First Men. Long lives, long memories and all?

Very possibly so, yes. I look at them as some sort of fallout to the original sin which caused the LN, somehow. I have more detailed ideas but I need to lay them out in an organized fashion. They seem very tied to the weirwoods. 

On May 20, 2016 at 10:08 AM, Maester of Valyria said:

I know I'm questioning a lot of your stuff here, but please don't mistake that for general cynicism: I do not necessarily believe everything you say, but a lot of it I do, and I have enormous respect for you and your work. Some of the ideas you support are actually very similar to the ones I had myself before I joined the online fan community.

Cheers! I'm from the East Coast (USA) so I don't look amiss at bluntness or challenging of ideas. Great discussion! 

On May 20, 2016 at 10:08 AM, Maester of Valyria said:

By the way, what's your opinion on Lucifer Dryland?

Last of his ilk, King of the Brimstone and Lord of Hellgate Hall? My kinda guy! The significant thing is that he's an Azor Ahai echo, and he was sent to the Wall, along with the Sword of the Evening, Vorian Dayne. If AA is connected to the LH, which I believe he is, then we need an AA type person going to the Wall (in terms of plot echoes). Bloodraven, Jon, Vorian and Lucifer. It's a thing. 

[LmL]

13 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Thanks very much for your response LmL. Sure, I've got more to read, especially as I keep clicking on links you reference and spin off into reading the thoughts of the likes of Durran Dundarron and Lost Melnibonian. I was reading last night about Odin and Yggradsil (sp?) and wondering if the Three-Eyed Raven/BR ought to be worked into that discussion.

One thing I find interesting is that there are broadly speaking two types of literary analysts - you are possibly the foremost proponent of what I'd call the static camp, finding the same symbols and motifs pervading or cropping up in the whole series; the other camp (the dynamics?) are the ones who focus on character development and changes. The latter is more my bent which is maybe why I so much enjoy your 'yin' to my 'yang'!

Talking of which, I take your point that there is ying in yang and vice versa and that does complicate looking for patterns in GRRMs writings, but I'm still tied to the overall picture of a duality culminating in a messiah and anti-messiah figure duking it out in an Armageddon-like clash.

Martin is surely doing his take on this idea, no doubt. I expect it will be twisted, like usual - I'm really looking forward to seeing how he does the ending, myself. 

I do focus a lot on transformations, actually, even though I am comparing transformations by different characters and identifying commonalities. Consider my take on Dany, who transforms from moon maiden to Last Dragon. All the rebirths and transformations in the story go back to the original comet - moon series of events, but each character shows us different things or aspects of what happened. I think as you go through the episodes you will see more of this type of discussion. 

I do get your point though, some are totally centered around character arcs with their analysis - this is more typical literary analysis. There are others who are better than me at this, and I seem to have an eye for mythological symbolism and archetypes, etc., so I'm just doing my thing. I'm glad you are able to enjoy my analysis, coming from a different mindset to some extent! That's really terrific.

[House Cambodia]

I find it very interesting and significant that we have a cosmic event, the comet/2nd moon catastrophe that affected the whole of Planetos, yet the appearance of the Others only seem to have affected Westeros. How do you account for that?

What is the bare minimum that we can attest? The First Men crossed the Arm and largely defeated the indigenous Children. After the children were defeated and the First Men had no enemies, what happened? They turned on each other and played their all-too-human games of thrones, with dozens of petty kingdoms rising and falling. Sounds familiar? Of course.

You have given a convincing astronomical account of how the Long Night happened, but what brought the Others, and why only the north of Westeros? 

I'm leaving a big pregnant space here for the moment.

Behind all the mythology and heroes, what can we say happened at the END of the Long Night? A common, apocalyptic threat emerged had forced the warring lords to join to meet it. Then, the beginning of the Stark dynasty and the Wall. Stark blood is very much connected with the prevention of another Long Night, it seems to me. They kept the Andals at bay, thus preserving in pure(ish) for the Old Religion,and despite bending the knee, kept the Targaryens at arm's length. So, was the admixture of Stark (Ice) and Targaryen (Fire) blood in the conception of Jon the catalyst, the threatened presence of dragonblood too close to the Others, the breaking of a millennias-old oath (deliberately, by Rhaegar in a fatal misunderstanding of prophecy) the cause of the Return of the Others?

If this is anywhere near correct, we'll find out via Bran. The North Remembers, and the Weirwoods were there.

[Maester of Valyria]

23 hours ago, LmL said:

I'm about to address your previous points, but I wanted to point out that the YD comet did actually break into multiple large pieces, and some them also hit the European ice sheet, according to the latest research. I definitely don't think we can say that multiple impacts would de facto equate to "everyone dies." There's enough wiggle room for a fantasy author to work with, no question. 

Ah, so it did, that's interesting. However, I do still think that worldwide impacts (such as significant impacts in the southern hemisphere) would have resulted in a far greater catastrophe. The moon-meteors of Planetos would have done so too, but I recognise that this is fantasy and there's only so far you can go with pure science!

23 hours ago, LmL said:

We also don't know how long the LN even lasted - I suspect no more than six years, if we are thinking realistically, because of the inevitable mass starvation. I always tend to remember that the mists of time obscure all of this. We can't take any one specific detail as gospel, and honestly even some of the large details are highly suspect.

All of the stories we're told (which may be false) indicate at least a generation (~25 years). Realistically not nearly enough humans to rebuild civilsation are going to survive a 6 year period without crops, which makes me think that it remained possible to grow food in a few isolated areas (perhaps the southern Reach), albeit in much smaller quantities than today. Of course though, the rug could be pulled out from under us if it's revealed that the timeline is wrong.

23 hours ago, LmL said:

I mentioned cotf and blood sacrifice last time, and I stand by the fact that we have never seen a cotf kill anyone. I also don't agree that the FM must have picked up their bloody sacrifice from the cotf. Is it possible? Very, perhaps even likely - I'm merely pointing out that we don't really know, at all, and that we should not make assumptions in a series where the author thinks about various kinds of misinformation quite a bit. I think it's equally plausible that the FM corrupted, changes, or added to whatever they learned from the cotf. 

While of course this is possible, I'm a bit uncomfortable with the Children's seeming benign and harmless nature; even if they were like that thousands of years ago, a prolonged war with the humans would have surely altered their society. What does seem likely is that they're masters of deception, and I doubt that they've told Bran everything. And then we have the general rule 'all powerful magic is rooted in blood'.

23 hours ago, LmL said:

There is a ton of evidence pointing towards the First Men having a much tighter relationship with greenseers in the Dawn Age, or of the kings of the First Men being greenseers (essay forthcoming). I do not think the story was simply that the FM invaded and burned constantly and then they made the pact and that was that. I think that's likely to be an oversimplified account. The story I am seeing is one where the children taught the First Men their greenseer magic, but eventually, some human greenseers (or perhaps my green men / horned lords) used that magic for ill. The moon breaking was committed by Azor Ahai, but I keep finding signs that he was a greenseer. Again, not a cotf, but a greenseer. One of the stories about Battle Isle is that the ancient mariners who built it had come to Westeros to learn from the children. I think that's an important detail. 

In my opinion the established history is very likely: the humans come in, peace fails, war ensues and eventually the two sides reach an accord. It may well be that some human greenseers misused their powers, but I don't think we've never seen any type of magic powerful enough to break a moon. Accepting the comet idea for a moment, maybe Azor Ahai summoned the comet and it in turn busted the moon? Which would make the whole Long Night an unfortunate accident?

Oh, Oldtown's definitely important. Although I was wondering if you had an opinion on the anachronism of Valyria trading with the Children there?

23 hours ago, LmL said:

You asked why break the moon? Well, all the themes around Azor Ahai and the Bloodstpne Emepror seem to parallel Prometheus and related stories - it's all about trying to be a god and stealing the heavenly fire and knowledge. That's usually the theme of most Morningstar related myths, and it seems like Martin is rolling with that. The Bloodstone E worshipped that black stone - the moon meteor - and worked dark magic. I say he made Lightbringer from that black meteor, so he's literally possessing the fire of the gods, and I suspect the oily black stone enables magic as well. Perhaps there were other magical motivations - perhaps he drew power from the LN somehow. 

I can't say I don't love the idea of meteor fragments enabling magic! Excellent spots on the parallels between Planetos' and Earth's mythology by the way: and mightn't it also reference Azor Ahai stealing power from the Children?

23 hours ago, LmL said:

Or maybe, it was something of an accident. Perhaps he was trying to do something more glorious but in his hubris, he fucked up. It's something along those lines. Durran stole a goddess from heaven, Grey King stole heaven's fire, Lann stole gold from the sun, Night's King had to have his moon pale maiden, Hugor Hill had seven stars pulled down from heaven for his crown, Azor Ahai and Galladon of Morne seem to have received magic swords from divine women, while the story of Dawn just straight out says "meteorite." Stealing from heaven, trying to be like God or be immortal - that's the theme here. 

Based on my above conjecture, it may well have been. As you've shown there are certainly enough similar tales!

 

I'll reply to your second response in a different post, to keep things organised.

[Maester of Valyria]

12 hours ago, LmL said:

I addressed this already, but I took a look around and it seems the limit for survival of major life is between 3 - 5 mi diameter, and of course where it lands makes a big difference too. I think there is a comfortable range of "big, but not too big" for Martin to work with. Rememeber that we have no idea how long the LN lasted. If the sun went away for 3 years it would be a pretty damn big deal, you know? Enough to inspire myths and legends, and if the Others invaded too...

3-5 miles seems very large: I've seen estimates postulating an ELE at 1km diameter (of course once again it's all speculation; hopefully we'll never find out for real!). Where it lands is certainly important, but less so since we're talking about lots of smaller objects, several of which definitely hit land.

12 hours ago, LmL said:

I can maybe buy the idea of a rebel group of children, but we have to go with what we have seen from the cotf on page.  They seem to be in harmony with the earth, singing its song, and they are at peace with their gradual decline. Bran notes that men would swear and oath and kill, but the cotf reaction is much different. The only motivation that I think makes sense  for them to cause mass bloodshed is to protect the earth, and the Hammer and the moon meteor disaster was just to damaging to the earth and the cycles of nature to be committed by them. We've seen absolutely nothing to indicate they can or even would do this. 

I think it's important to factor in to the Children's current appearance that they've had thousands of years to accept their fate. We know that they fought viciously when they still had something to fight for; now they've lost any remaining chance of victory they've come to terms with their (lack of a) future.

I believe that the Children would cause mass bloodshed if there was a point to it, but the humans have clearly won for good, so there is no point, so they will keep the peace. Also, all we've seen of the Children is through the eyes of a damaged young boy who is completely dependent on them for his own future: they are definitely hiding something. If the Others are not natural, then they must have been summoned by someone, and who but the Children have the knowledge, power and inclination (revenge; a final throw of the dice) to do so?

12 hours ago, LmL said:

BTW I think there is abundant evidence of sea level rise and global warming anyway. The 1,000 islands, the drying up seas in the east (the Jogos Nhai even refer to a time "before the coming of the dry times" which is a pretty strong indicator things are drying up over there). I suspect Martin is simply aping planet earth's timeline, where we are still coming out of an ice age, and the worst of the cold broke about 10,000 years ago. I suspect before the arm was broken, with no warm water entering the Shivering Sea, the north of Westeros would have been colder. Everything above the Neck might have been the lands of winter, so to speak. 

I'm actually working on an essay at the moment based on sea level rises: I believe it offers a convincing and interesting new take on several events, and I should have it out in the next couple of weeks.

While the Neck may be a bit far south, I completely agree that the Breaking had a profound impact on the world's climate.

12 hours ago, LmL said:

I think this is a false equivalency, comparing the Doom and the Faceless Men to the cotf. It's not a matter of who is stronger; but of different types of magic. The Doom is easy to explain - the Valyrians prevented any major volcanic eruptions on a volcanic peninsula for 5,000 years, and we are told they harnessed their fires for magical purposes. It's pretty clear the Valyrians maintained a kind of equilibrium wight he 14 flames, and that's not natural. That's a repression of the natural cycle, and all it would take is simple assassination of mages (as TWOIAF suggests) to cause a destabilization. They didn't need any magic at all, just murder, which is what they do. 

I don't believe it is: both groups potentially used magic to prompt geological events. Or you can have the Valyrians, who used magic to do the opposite, which I believe still proves the principle, if not the point.

12 hours ago, LmL said:

Now, the cotf do sing the songs of earth, so perhaps there is a sound which can trigger earthquakes.  That's the only way the Hammer even made any sense, and the logical thing to connect it with would be the idea of a magical horn. But no horn is mentioned in connection with the hammer. And the Hammer is said to have been "called down." And what do hammers do? They fall. Fall, and pound. Like sun-spears and falling bloodstones, bleeding stars. You know my rap here. 

Regardless, we have never been shown much at all about the extent of the cotf magic, so we really have no way of knowing what they can or cannot do. I'm simply pointing out that there is no evidence that they have any power like causing earthquakes, and TWOIAF even points out that the children were never said to posses that kind of power. 

Hell, why do the children need humans like Bran and Bloodraven anyway if they are greenseers too? Ever wondered about that? They must have limitations. 

This is what I've been driving at: we do not and cannot know for sure what the Children were and are capable of.

My pet theory is that the Children, weakened by a small population, require human greenseers since none of the surviving Children have the gift. This doesn't necessarily mean that the Children aren't manipulating the two or lying to them in some manner.

12 hours ago, LmL said:

When foreigners adopt a religion, they pretty much always modify it or mix it with their previous customs. My wife is Filipina, and let me tell you, the Filipino cocktail of animistic pagan magic and catholicism is truly amazing. It's well possible that the human sacrifice aspect was added by the First Men - and we don't know when, either - or held over from their previous practices.

It's highly possible that the cotf do practice blood magic, and that is indeed how you open a weirwood's terrified eyes. I know this is the most likely case - I'm pointing out that it's not really based on much, and should be questioned. 

The trees themselves seem tortured. They have bloody and burning hands, they weep blood, and they screaming silence. I really think the current weirwood situation is fucked up and twisted, and I believe there's a big mystery as to who carved the faces and why. 

IIRC, you can get laughing and smiling weirwoods, not just crying or screaming ones. The weeping blood is certainly ominous enough though. As for the faces: surely so the Children and First Men would be able to look their gods in the eyes?

12 hours ago, LmL said:

Ignore this one

 

12 hours ago, LmL said:

I talked about this in my other response, but basically it's the Prometheus story. Stealing the fire of the heavens, trying to be like god, biting the apple, etc. 

Ah, I see. Please forgive my absent-mindedness.

12 hours ago, LmL said:

Very possibly so, yes. I look at them as some sort of fallout to the original sin which caused the LN, somehow. I have more detailed ideas but I need to lay them out in an organized fashion. They seem very tied to the weirwoods. 

I look forward to the essay!

12 hours ago, LmL said:

Cheers! I'm from the East Coast (USA) so I don't look amiss at bluntness or challenging of ideas. Great discussion! 

And I'm from London, so I always prefer straight talking. Politely though (I am also British!).

Thank you!

12 hours ago, LmL said:

Last of his ilk, King of the Brimstone and Lord of Hellgate Hall? My kinda guy! The significant thing is that he's an Azor Ahai echo, and he was sent to the Wall, along with the Sword of the Evening, Vorian Dayne. If AA is connected to the LH, which I believe he is, then we need an AA type person going to the Wall (in terms of plot echoes). Bloodraven, Jon, Vorian and Lucifer. It's a thing. 

Yep, that's the one! Very interesting take on it: do you think he has anything else to him? I mean, he is named after the devil...

 

 

10 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

I find it very interesting and significant that we have a cosmic event, the comet/2nd moon catastrophe that affected the whole of Planetos, yet the appearance of the Others only seem to have affected Westeros. How do you account for that?

...

You have given a convincing astronomical account of how the Long Night happened, but what brought the Others, and why only the north of Westeros? 

I reckon the Others only affected Westeros because Westeros is the only landmass connected to the Lands of Always Winter, where the White Walkers live. They may not have been able to traverse Dorne to reach the Arm even during the Long Night.

However, if we accept that Ib was once connected to the polar ice cap by sea ice (as evidenced by the mammoths and unicorns on the island), and that Ib was once connected to mainland Essos (coastline congruency/lower sea levels) then we have a potential pathway for the Others to reach Essos. Perhaps this is why we have legends of the Ifeqevron: some of the Children migrated to Ib to hold the Others away from Essos-proper...

[insert name for that feeling you get when your random conjecture and musings actually have potential as a serious idea]

I feel like I may have hit upon something here: a potential explanation for the Ifeqevron. Thoughts?

[House Cambodia]

Quote

What Was the Cause of the Long Night?

The Long Night is the single most important event in the history of the world of A Song of Ice and Fire, and yet, we have basically no idea what caused it, and only the foggiest of notions as to how it was ended.  However, I believe that George R. R. Martin has cleverly hidden the cause of the Long Night and the important events of the War for the Dawn inside of the folklore and local legends of the books.  It is my hypothesis that when we compare the stories of Azor Ahai, the Grey King, Durran Godsgrief, and a few Others, we begin to see a coherent story emerge.  It’s a story about comets, falling meteors, earthquakes, floods, and a nuclear winter, and about the humans that were alive at the time and what they did to survive and overcome the darkness.  These legends represent a kind of “bard’s truth,” and I believe they can be understood if we consider them as metaphorical references to real events.

You still around LmL? I'd like to ask a really dumb question about your whole hypothesis. Have I got this right or am I missing the point?

 

What we have are cosmic but natural events - a comet plunging into a moon, shrapnel hitting Planetos causing various natural cataclysms, and a load of mythology growing up to make sense of it all. Is it therefore reasonable to suggest that the first and coming Long Nights are also natural phenomena - mini-ice ages that Men, COTF etc are trying to rationalise and deal with using the means available to them (including magic) within their sacred mythological or religious worldviews?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 19-5-2016 at 4:21 AM, LmL said:

So, how's this one sitting with everyone?

I realize it takes a while to find time to listen to the whole thing. Feel free to comment before you've finished if you like. 

Oh and I am editing the next podcast as we speak, which will be called

"Tyrion Targaryen."

Is there already a thread for this one?

[LmL]

19 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Is there already a thread for this one?

Nope I'm slacking. I had a thread blow up on Reddit three days ago and it's kept me occupied. I'll probably throw it up tonight.

[LmL]

On May 25, 2016 at 1:24 AM, House Cambodia said:

You still around LmL? I'd like to ask a really dumb question about your whole hypothesis. Have I got this right or am I missing the point?

 

What we have are cosmic but natural events - a comet plunging into a moon, shrapnel hitting Planetos causing various natural cataclysms, and a load of mythology growing up to make sense of it all. Is it therefore reasonable to suggest that the first and coming Long Nights are also natural phenomena - mini-ice ages that Men, COTF etc are trying to rationalise and deal with using the means available to them (including magic) within their sacred mythological or religious worldviews?

 this was my first instinct as well – that these events just kind of happened and the fallout is what everybody made mess of them. However, as I've explored the themes of all the related mess, there seems to be a pretty consistent theme about stealing from heaven, building on the ideas of trumpets yes, Adam in the garden of Eden, and  and many other similar stories. The scenes of the narrative and the characters are always the most important thing, and it seems pretty clear that challenging the gods and stealing from the gods is what is at the heart of all of this. This would dictate that the moon disaster was in fact caused by hubristic magicians.  I have a few ideas about what the moon breaking mechanism might have been, but I'm saving that for a future essay

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 25-5-2016 at 9:44 PM, LmL said:

Nope I'm slacking. I had a thread blow up on Reddit three days ago and it's kept me occupied. I'll probably throw it up tonight.

I know how such things go Perhaps leave a post here once you've posted the new thread.. Or a tag, whatever works best.

[Equilibrium]

Check some stuff out.

Sedna, minor planet with very irregular and very elliptical orbit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/90377_Sedna

That small planet played significant role in search for hypothetical star Nemesis, yeah it's that awesome as it sounds, dark star, dwarf star that causes regular extinction events. Yeah hypothesis is less and less popular due to the lack of evidence, but that trend started recently, hypothesis was at height of popularity when Martin started ASOIAF. Asimov wrote a book about it, and Martin, knowing his passion for SF must have read it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemesis_(hypothetical_star)

Now to switch to Semitic mythology, second most important thing next to astrology. There are twin gods in Canaanite pantheon Shahar and Shalim, gods of dusk and dawn, representing morning and evening aspect of Venus, and are called "morning star" and "evening star". Shalim is important because he is mythological founder of Jerusalim (pre-Jewish) which is like perfect inspiration for AA and founding of GEotD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahar_(god) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shalim

In some myths twins above were aspects of Attar, another Semitic god, who is even more interesting. Attar tried to usurp the throne of Baal but fails in ruling. Attar was also part of South Arabian pantheon, god of war, he was often referred to as "He who is Bold in Battle". One of his symbols was the spear-point and the antelope was his sacred animal. He had power over Venus, the morning star.  Attar was a god of the thunderstorm, dispensing natural irrigation in the form of rain. Attar also represented fertility and water as essential to fertility. Now he somehow manages to posses all symbols associated with House Baratheon, thunder, fertility and boldness (Robert) and while antelope is not same family as deer, they are similar symbolically especially since there are no deers in Arabia. Dual symbolism of spearhead and morning star is also very significant in the comet part of your theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attar_(god)

[LmL]

On May 28, 2016 at 4:55 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I know how such things go Perhaps leave a post here once you've posted the new thread.. Or a tag, whatever works best.

Will do, RT.

2 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

Check some stuff out.

Sedna, minor planet with very irregular and very elliptical orbit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/90377_Sedna

That small planet played significant role in search for hypothetical star Nemesis, yeah it's that awesome as it sounds, dark star, dwarf star that causes regular extinction events. Yeah hypothesis is less and less popular due to the lack of evidence, but that trend started recently, hypothesis was at height of popularity when Martin started ASOIAF. Asimov wrote a book about it, and Martin, knowing his passion for SF must have read it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemesis_(hypothetical_star)

Now to switch to Semitic mythology, second most important thing next to astrology. There are twin gods in Canaanite pantheon Shahar and Shalim, gods of dusk and dawn, representing morning and evening aspect of Venus, and are called "morning star" and "evening star". Shalim is important because he is mythological founder of Jerusalim (pre-Jewish) which is like perfect inspiration for AA and founding of GEotD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahar_(god) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shalim

In some myths twins above were aspects of Attar, another Semitic god, who is even more interesting. Attar tried to usurp the throne of Baal but fails in ruling. Attar was also part of South Arabian pantheon, god of war, he was often referred to as "He who is Bold in Battle". One of his symbols was the spear-point and the antelope was his sacred animal. He had power over Venus, the morning star.  Attar was a god of the thunderstorm, dispensing natural irrigation in the form of rain. Attar also represented fertility and water as essential to fertility. Now he somehow manages to posses all symbols associated with House Baratheon, thunder, fertility and boldness (Robert) and while antelope is not same family as deer, they are similar symbolically especially since there are no deers in Arabia. Dual symbolism of spearhead and morning star is also very significant in the comet part of your theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attar_(god)

Awesome stuff as always man. Attar is one of the "morningstar deities" I listed in the lucifer means lightbringer essay, though I did not go into any detail or do the full research. Thanks so much for filling me in - there are so many leads and things to research, I cannot follow them all. The most important aspect of the morningstar deity for ASOIAF seems to be the challenging god and resurrection ideas, and this is pretty much the biggest commonality between all deities included in the "morningstar deity" category. 

I saw this just as I was headed out the door, but I will write back in more detail later today.