ravenous reader Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 triple post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Cambodia Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 4 hours ago, ummester said: They come back wrong because the thing that died was corrupt - let's see how it goes with Jon. That strikes me as a highly dogmatic statement, paying scant regard to the evidence. Unless you hold to an extreme doctrine of original sin, it's hard to accept that Craster's babies and every person turned into a wight was 'corrupt'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tianzi Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 8 hours ago, ummester said: They come back wrong because the thing that died was corrupt - let's see how it goes with Jon. 'Corrupt' = 'we like them less'? I don't see how Cat, Beric Dondarrion, or every Night Watch Brother that wighted out, or Craster's babies were overly 'corrupt'. I'm getting confused by High Sparrow's characterization. Is he supposed to be a fanatic, a liar and manipulator, or a good, religious, stern uncle? I hope for the first or second, he does it infinitely better than the third. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tianzi Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 8 hours ago, ummester said: They come back wrong because the thing that died was corrupt - let's see how it goes with Jon. 'Corrupt' = 'we like them less'? I don't see how Cat, Beric Dondarrion, or every Night Watch Brother that wighted out, or Craster's babies were overly 'corrupt'. I'm getting confused by High Sparrow's characterization. Is he supposed to be a fanatic, a liar and manipulator, or a good, religious, stern uncle? I hope for the first or second, he does it infinitely better than the third. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Cambodia Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 3 hours ago, Tianzi said: I'm getting confused by High Sparrow's characterization. Is he supposed to be a fanatic, a liar and manipulator, or a good, religious, stern uncle? I hope for the first or second, he does it infinitely better than the third. In the show, dunno. But I'm hoping that in the books we'll see them 'progress' from option 3 to 2 to 1 - i.e. a case study of a movement whose intentions start off good but gradually turn bad, as we'll see in the individual cases of Daenerys, Tyrion and maybe Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Cambodia Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 3 hours ago, Tianzi said: I'm getting confused by High Sparrow's characterization. Is he supposed to be a fanatic, a liar and manipulator, or a good, religious, stern uncle? I hope for the first or second, he does it infinitely better than the third. In the show, dunno. But I'm hoping that in the books we'll see them 'progress' from option 3 to 2 to 1 - i.e. a case study of a movement whose intentions start off good but gradually turn bad, as we'll see in the individual cases of Daenerys, Tyrion and maybe Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 18 hours ago, ravenous reader said: A wordsmith is not a naturalist! There is a paradox here: human nature is nature. How can we be in competition with ourselves? Different wordsmiths can have different ideals and beliefs. Yes, human nature is nature and humans are part of the natural world, But, some human mindsets lead them to be arrogant and think that their needs supersede the world, where others will nurture and appreciate the natural environment around them in front of their own desires. Some look at a forest and see industry and $ signs, others see something more important than themselves. 18 hours ago, ravenous reader said: By the way, what are you: a 'naturalist,' a 'romantic,' or something else...?! Like any person IRL, I don't think I can be summed up with a single label. I guess I was romantic and became a cynic. I've always been more appreciative of nature than human invention, yet I also enjoy human invention and can have a technical mind. I'm definitely more socialist than capitalist but am also very socially traditional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 15 hours ago, House Cambodia said: That strikes me as a highly dogmatic statement, paying scant regard to the evidence. Unless you hold to an extreme doctrine of original sin, it's hard to accept that Craster's babies and every person turned into a wight was 'corrupt'. I meant just Beric and Cat were more corrupt than Jon - and, I think Jon's 'soul' was hiding in Ghost, to keep it from corrupting further, before it came back. I think the blue eyed risen have something to do with being north of the wall. The babies aren't brought back from the dead, they are turned or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphalesion Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 On 05/05/2016 at 1:55 AM, Lothar said: Yes, I was going to make a thread like this. I thought this was going to about the new Kit Harrington interview. http://www.ew.com/article/2016/05/05/game-thrones-jon-snow-changes It seems that D & D never turn down the chance to turn a character atheist or say religious beliefs are bullshit. I'm atheist but it feels really bizarre in that world where everything supernatural is real. There's these quotes from Jon in the next episode. There's Beric saying "There is no other side. It's just darkness." There's Arya saying "Nothing isn't better or worse than anything. Nothing is just nothing." There's Davos being a atheist. Davos saying fuck the Gods. Davos saying "I think mothers and fathers made up the gods because they wanted their children to sleep through the night." Cersei saying Tywin hates the Gods. Sansa saying she doesn't pray anymore. Tyrion regarding the gods as a joke by calling them all vicious cunts. It's pretty annoying how in your face they are about it. And this is coming from a atheist. I agree with this. I do very much dislike them pushing the "Nothing after Death" angle, I think GRRM solved it very elegantly by simply not letting us look into the heads of resurrected characters. I do think GRRM's religions fail to convince as realistic sets of believes and that GRRM sometimes doesn't seem to understand faith, but at the very least, he doesn't push his own believes like the show runners do. The repeated "THERE'S NOTHING NOOOOOOOTHIIIIIIIING, MELISANDRE, NOOOOOTHIIIIING" really gets annoying. It basically has the feelign of: Dragons? Of course! Magic? Why, naturally! Gods? hahaha, don't be silly, who would believe in such fairy tales! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKnightOfJests Posted May 14, 2016 Author Share Posted May 14, 2016 15 hours ago, Orphalesion said: I agree with this. I do very much dislike them pushing the "Nothing after Death" angle, I think GRRM solved it very elegantly by simply not letting us look into the heads of resurrected characters. I do think GRRM's religions fail to convince as realistic sets of believes and that GRRM sometimes doesn't seem to understand faith, but at the very least, he doesn't push his own believes like the show runners do. The repeated "THERE'S NOTHING NOOOOOOOTHIIIIIIIING, MELISANDRE, NOOOOOTHIIIIING" really gets annoying. It basically has the feelign of: Dragons? Of course! Magic? Why, naturally! Gods? hahaha, don't be silly, who would believe in such fairy tales! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vastet Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 "In the show whenever we've seen a religious character, they're usually either insane, cruel, cocky, or all three." Funny. That's exactly how I'd describe the average religious person I meet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphalesion Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 3 hours ago, Vastet said: "In the show whenever we've seen a religious character, they're usually either insane, cruel, cocky, or all three." Funny. That's exactly how I'd describe the average religious person I meet. God (sorry) Man, you are such an enlightened, tolerant individual who doesn't make sweeping generalizations at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vastet Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 Generalisations that actually play out are perfectly valid. I've never once in all my life encountered a devout worshipper that wasn't insane, cocky, cruel, or all three. Maybe such people exist, but I have yet to meet one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Cambodia Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 Way to kill what was a refreshingly mature and interesting discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vastet Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 If I could 'kill' the discussion with a sentence and a paragraph, the discussion had to already be near death anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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