Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

TheKnightOfJests

Do the show writers hate religion?

Recommended Posts

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

How is R'hllorism depicted generously? A religion that uses immolation as a means to and end? It doesn't get much more evil than that, regardless of whether it works or not. Books and show, btw.

I mean that the sole fact that it works is a pretty generous depiction of a religion. Many of the others, including those present in the books/show are just represented by a bunch of people believing in something that might as well be bogus. Melisandre's religion might be evil, but there is some truth there.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

I mean that the sole fact that it works is a pretty generous depiction of a religion. Many of the others, including those present in the books/show are just represented by a bunch of people believing in something that might as well be bogus. Melisandre's religion might be evil, but there is some truth there.
 

 

I think we have very different views on what is a generous depiction. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

I mean that the sole fact that it works is a pretty generous depiction of a religion. Many of the others, including those present in the books/show are just represented by a bunch of people believing in something that might as well be bogus. Melisandre's religion might be evil, but there is some truth there.
 

I see what you mean by working. I suppose that seeing Beric return from life several times and the ability to produce shadow babies is a pro for this "religion". 

However, I wouldn't say it has worked all the time, since Melisandre has burned a lot of people alive and it didn't serve to win a war against 20 good men.

I'd say that R'hllor's faith is portrayed in different ways in the show. In Essos, we've shown that it's a religion based on a power that has yet to come, words of a new hope, and in the Riverlands was like some kind of witchery that actually worked but I can see that it can still be called religion.

However, in Melisandre's case, which is the one most viewers will remember, it's possibly the biggest case of fanatism from the show (even biggest than  the New Faith of the Seven of The High Sparrow)......and it can only be called dark magic, but not religion.

It hasn't help the lives of anyone involved, except, probably, Jon Snow. In fact, everyone who surrounded her "faith" died terribly like if it was the result of a hex. What's the benefit of that religion? 

It's like the typical bad consequences of the use of occultism/dark magic that are shown in terror movies or satanism-equivalent in Westeros.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If anything, the show and the books downplay the nastiness of the place of religion in history. Yes, whole armies were incited to kill for religion, centuries of war and bloodshed took place. People were burned, beheaded and tortured for it. Massacres took place. Sexuality itself was and still is demonized and sex was outlawed on religious days, that is, a good portion of the year.  Women were considered to be evil in a way that is only suggested here. The walk of shame was relatively gentle, and was taken from a real historical event. Women are controlled by the high sparrow and his enablers and it is commonplace to this day. Religions ruled by using shunning and even incentivizing assassination. There was a papal hit on Elizabeth I, for example. Bastards were excluded . Women, or men, who were outside the standard passivity and party line might be lethally considered to be witches. Science was controlled and warped. Joan of Arc was burned for cross dressing and being a witch. Classical knowledge was controlled and selectively destroyed. Puritans destroyed centuries of art and burned churches full of people. All without any provable magic.

The factions in the show have only just started!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I see what you mean by working. I suppose that seeing Beric return from life several times and the ability to produce shadow babies is a pro for this "religion".

However, I wouldn't say it has worked all the time, since Melisandre has burned a lot of people alive and it didn't serve to win a war against 20 good men.

I'd say that R'hllor's faith is portrayed in different ways in the show. In Essos, we've shown that it's a religion based on a power that has yet to come, words of a new hope, and in the Riverlands was like some kind of witchery that actually worked but I can see that it can still be called religion.

However, in Melisandre's case, which is the one most viewers will remember, it's possibly the biggest case of fanatism from the show (even biggest than  the New Faith of the Seven of The High Sparrow)......and it can only be called dark magic, but not religion.

It hasn't help the lives of anyone involved, except, probably, Jon Snow. In fact, everyone who surrounded her "faith" died terribly like if it was the result of a hex. What's the benefit of that religion?

It's like the typical bad consequences of the use of occultism/dark magic that are shown in terror movies or satanism-equivalent in Westeros.

Well, D&D are the highest gods of the series and Ramsay has their blessing, what can lesser godlings do ;)

Melisandre is making mistakes and I definitely wouldn't call her a positive portrayal of a believer. I also agree that the R'hllorism doesn't seem to help many people (well, for now - if Mel is right and it really can stop or slow down the White Walkers, it may wind up on the plus side).

BUT, there is this one thing they seem to have going, that the others don't: R'hllor seems to exist and communicate with humans, and if the core of a religion is the belief in divine/spiritual beings, Melisandre and her peers have hit that point. Their god apparently exists. They are right believing in him.


 

As for the depiction of FM as extremists, is probably because, uh, they're supposed to be extremists (and wars and crisis tend to bring those out, it's a real phenomenon). Average believers of the Seven aren't shown as such. But the focus of the story just doesn't lie, the interesting aspect of any religion is how it shapes the bigger picture. Of course the fanatics are going to be louder. And the main characters are, I'd say, focused on managing the present, without much energy of thinking of the spiritual. This Sansa line, I don't remember the context, but if it was when something horrible has just happened to her (well, pick almost any moment of her life...), her disappointment in prayers would be perfectly understandable.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Well, D&D are the highest gods of the series and Ramsay has their blessing, what can lesser godlings do ;)

Melisandre is making mistakes and I definitely wouldn't call her a positive portrayal of a believer. I also agree that the R'hllorism doesn't seem to help many people (well, for now - if Mel is right and it really can stop or slow down the White Walkers, it may wind up on the plus side).

BUT, there is this one thing they seem to have going, that the others don't: R'hllor seems to exist and communicate with humans, and if the core of a religion is the belief in divine/spiritual beings, Melisandre and her peers have hit that point. Their god apparently exists. They are right believing in him.



 

Ramsay, totally!

Yes, I see your point!! I was only pointing out that maybe if what's happening is due to this God -who is evil- it's not actually a god, but a demon or a foolish god (call it what you want). I don't want to know how the antithesis of R'hllor is!

or maybe it's only Melisandre, and R'hollor can't stand her. Beric, at least, was revived, and he believed in R'hollor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Tianzi said:

Well, D&D are the highest gods of the series and Ramsay has their blessing, what can lesser godlings do ;)

Melisandre is making mistakes and I definitely wouldn't call her a positive portrayal of a believer. I also agree that the R'hllorism doesn't seem to help many people (well, for now - if Mel is right and it really can stop or slow down the White Walkers, it may wind up on the plus side).

BUT, there is this one thing they seem to have going, that the others don't: R'hllor seems to exist and communicate with humans, and if the core of a religion is the belief in divine/spiritual beings, Melisandre and her peers have hit that point. Their god apparently exists. They are right believing in him.


 

As for the depiction of FM as extremists, is probably because, uh, they're supposed to be extremists (and wars and crisis tend to bring those out, it's a real phenomenon). Average believers of the Seven aren't shown as such. But the focus of the story just doesn't lie, the interesting aspect of any religion is how it shapes the bigger picture. Of course the fanatics are going to be louder. And the main characters are, I'd say, focused on managing the present, without much energy of thinking of the spiritual. This Sansa line, I don't remember the context, but if it was when something horrible has just happened to her (well, pick almost any moment of her life...), her disappointment in prayers would be perfectly understandable.

 

No average believers in the show have been shown though............ and when bad things happened to Sansa she prayed more in the books............... She does the opposite in the show...............

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, protar said:

I'm not saying that he can't move on from loss. But it cannot be more than a few months in setting after Renly's death that Loras starts sleeping around spilling family secrets to random hot squires. And we have no scene where we see Loras getting over Renly so the end result is that he looks incredibly callous and willing to jeopardise his family for some sweet D.

Loras sleeps exactly with two people on the show. One is Renly, with whom he's clearly shown to be in love with and one with Olyvar. He doesn't sleep with the latter until months or possibly even a year after Renly's death (Renly dies at the beginning of season 2 while Olyvar shows up mid season 3) and it's also portrayed as more akin to a relationship (at least from Loras' viewpoint) than a random bang. I'm not saying that Loras portrayal on the show is not without issues but I don't understand how anyone can call sleeping with two men over the course of years "stereotypically promiscuous".

Maybe, after losing Renly, Loras' been craving a companion (someone not to just share bed with but also talk to), whom he thought he found in Olyvar. It might be naive to trust anyone in KL but it's quite normal for people to open up to someone they like and are attracted to. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Tianzi said:

As for the depiction of FM as extremists, is probably because, uh, they're supposed to be extremists (and wars and crisis tend to bring those out, it's a real phenomenon)

Euhm, no, they're not supposed to be extremists in the books. They pretty much have multiple prayed for gods of different religions in their house. They're very inclusive in that respect. No assassination will be done without a prayer and sacrifice for it. The sacrifice varies in that not just those with lots of coin pay a high price, but that it truly can hurt their selfish aims. They're not recruiting Arya to kill as many as she can, which seems to defeat the premissed purpose of a death cult. People can come in and pray for suicide,but are not forced poison. They're free to leave and not drink from the cup. Jaquen is pretty miffed by Arya using her naming-him trick so that he ends up killing a lot of people. And it appears they are as much in line with Braavosi goals as other Braavosi about slaves and dragons not being something to joke about. Arya overhears Tyroshi sailors talk about one slaver reaching Tyrosh with Hardhome women and children. Arya tells KM, who has an ornate key to get in the vaults of faces (aka keyholder), and Jon thinks his negotiations with Tycho to use his ships for Hardhome went a wee bit too easy, and the Braavosi only took women and children aboard (preventing Tyroshi slavers from getting to easy free slaves). It's all about balance,and preserving it. And in that way they are death cult, since death itself is a type of balance: young, old, sick, healthy, poor, rich, smart, dumb, kind, wicked, the powerful, the powerless... everybody dies, and one's power, money, birth and beauty is useless in death. Without DNA everybody becomes a John and Jane Doe in death.  

Is it creepy? Absolutely. Is it ominous? Sure. Is it extremist? No. Many people just go from, "they kill people and believe in death as a god" => "So, extremist." But for extremists they very much put up a lot of balances and checks before they kill someone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Noveson said:

First of all no it doesn't, but that's besides the point.  Her trial can hinge on whatever it wants to, it doesn't mean his sexuality is the focus of the plot.  The focus of their plot is to be a foil for the royal class, the HS is using whatever means he can to lawfully accomplish that.  And homosexuality happens to be against the law. 

It doesn't happen to be against the law though. It's against the law because D+D made it so, when it was a non-issue in the books. They decided to make homosexuality the impetus for Margaery's arrest and the result is what comes across as a very moralising and patronising tale about homophobia - from a show with one of the most insensitive portrayals of homosexuality I've ever seen. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

Loras sleeps exactly with two people on the show. One is Renly, with whom he's clearly shown to be in love with and one with Olyvar. He doesn't sleep with the latter until months or possibly even a year after Renly's death (Renly dies at the beginning of season 2 while Olyvar shows up mid season 3) and it's also portrayed as more akin to a relationship (at least from Loras' viewpoint) than a random bang. I'm not saying that Loras portrayal on the show is not without issues but I don't understand how anyone can call sleeping with two men over the course of years "stereotypically promiscuous".

Maybe, after losing Renly, Loras' been craving a companion (someone not to just share bed with but also talk to), whom he thought he found in Olyvar. It might be naive to trust anyone in KL but it's quite normal for people to open up to someone they like and are attracted to. 

Then the writers need to show us that. If they wanted to portray this as Loras craving some intimacy after Renly's death, give us something to actually base that on. It's not my job to retcon the writing so it's less grossly offensive. Yes Loras only sleeps with two people on the show. But having Loras jump into bed with someone with no more set up than a flirtatious glance, when logically he should be mourning the love of his life, and then have him spill family secrets merely because he got laid...it paints a really negative image of him. Then you lump that in with all the other portrayals of homosexuality (a rather ineffectual king who is scared of blood and apparently used to sleep around with all the stableboys in kings landing; an evil male prostitute; a hypersexual man who literally lives in a brothel while staying in KL; his wife who is an evil and exoticised woman of colour who murders an innocent teenage girl with a kiss, and then the selection of random lesbian prostitutes who exist only to titillate the presumed straight male viewer-ship.). The end result isn't a very good track record.

If they had actually shown Loras mourning Renly and using Olyvar to get past that then that little plot line would have been a lot better. But they didn't. They wanted to entwine Loras in the plotting of KL but they couldn't be bothered to actually develop him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, protar said:

Then the writers need to show us that. If they wanted to portray this as Loras craving some intimacy after Renly's death, give us something to actually base that on. It's not my job to retcon the writing so it's less grossly offensive. Yes Loras only sleeps with two people on the show. But having Loras jump into bed with someone with no more set up than a flirtatious glance, when logically he should be mourning the love of his life, and then have him spill family secrets merely because he got laid...it paints a really negative image of him. Then you lump that in with all the other portrayals of homosexuality (a rather ineffectual king who is scared of blood and apparently used to sleep around with all the stableboys in kings landing; an evil male prostitute; a hypersexual man who literally lives in a brothel while staying in KL; his wife who is an evil and exoticised woman of colour who murders an innocent teenage girl with a kiss, and then the selection of random lesbian prostitutes who exist only to titillate the presumed straight male viewer-ship.). The end result isn't a very good track record.

If they had actually shown Loras mourning Renly and using Olyvar to get past that then that little plot line would have been a lot better. But they didn't. They wanted to entwine Loras in the plotting of KL but they couldn't be bothered to actually develop him.

Loras has been massacred as a character. Where is his martial ability, his loyalty to his kingdom and his house, his mourning of his King(Renly), his devotion to duty and training, it's all gone and been replaced by a  virtual caricature about as deep as an upside down teaspoon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, TheKnightOfJests said:

No average believers in the show have been shown though............ and when bad things happened to Sansa she prayed more in the books............... She does the opposite in the show...............

Arya and the Hound meet 'average believers' of the Seven in their travels.  Ned was an 'average' believer of the old gods.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Euhm, no, they're not supposed to be extremists in the books. They pretty much have multiple prayed for gods of different religions in their house. They're very inclusive in that respect. No assassination will be done without a prayer and sacrifice for it. The sacrifice varies in that not just those with lots of coin pay a high price, but that it truly can hurt their selfish aims. They're not recruiting Arya to kill as many as she can, which seems to defeat the premissed purpose of a death cult. People can come in and pray for suicide,but are not forced poison. They're free to leave and not drink from the cup. Jaquen is pretty miffed by Arya using her naming-him trick so that he ends up killing a lot of people. And it appears they are as much in line with Braavosi goals as other Braavosi about slaves and dragons not being something to joke about. Arya overhears Tyroshi sailors talk about one slaver reaching Tyrosh with Hardhome women and children. Arya tells KM, who has an ornate key to get in the vaults of faces (aka keyholder), and Jon thinks his negotiations with Tycho to use his ships for Hardhome went a wee bit too easy, and the Braavosi only took women and children aboard (preventing Tyroshi slavers from getting to easy free slaves). It's all about balance,and preserving it. And in that way they are death cult, since death itself is a type of balance: young, old, sick, healthy, poor, rich, smart, dumb, kind, wicked, the powerful, the powerless... everybody dies, and one's power, money, birth and beauty is useless in death. Without DNA everybody becomes a John and Jane Doe in death.

Is it creepy? Absolutely. Is it ominous? Sure. Is it extremist? No. Many people just go from, "they kill people and believe in death as a god" => "So, extremist." But for extremists they very much put up a lot of balances and checks before they kill someone.

...Let me be clear, I used 'FM' as 'Faith Militant'? The sparrow guys Cersei armed?

 

6 hours ago, TheKnightOfJests said:

No average believers in the show have been shown though............ and when bad things happened to Sansa she prayed more in the books............... She does the opposite in the show...............

Well, the average religiosity just doesn't affect much show events, so it's no real point in depicting it in detail (and some average believers were shown, just were forgettable). Also the show just drops POV structure, so that also cuts some prayer time and addressing gods in characters' thoughts. And Sansa's change here it's very minor and it's not illogical, as the opposite to many other changes, so...
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

...Let me be clear, I used 'FM' as 'Faith Militant'? The sparrow guys Cersei armed?

Thanks for clarifying that. When I see FM I read "Faceless Men".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, sj4iy said:

Arya and the Hound meet 'average believers' of the Seven in their travels.  Ned was an 'average' believer of the old gods.

Ned was only in for one season. Sort of like how Sansa is religious in the first two seasons, and then stops in the third.

We also get the Hound insulting those average believers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tianzi said:

...Let me be clear, I used 'FM' as 'Faith Militant'? The sparrow guys Cersei armed?

 

Well, the average religiosity just doesn't affect much show events, so it's no real point in depicting it in detail (and some average believers were shown, just were forgettable). Also the show just drops POV structure, so that also cuts some prayer time and addressing gods in characters' thoughts. And Sansa's change here it's very minor and it's not illogical, as the opposite to many other changes, so...
 

I can agree with this, except that they cut prayers, and add the anti religious lines.

It's the entire reason I made the topic. If you don't want parts from the book that dealt with religion in the show, don't MAKE UP parts that weren't in the books to push your own personal opinions.

And if it was only Sansa, this wouldn't be as noticeable to me, she's just a good example, and her change might even be believable even being different from the books. This being said, with how many times characters have bashed religion, or just said something negative about it, it's hard for me to not just think "oooh another anti religious line" instead of "oh, well maybe they though that would be better of something"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Thanks for clarifying that. When I see FM I read "Faceless Men".

Oh, and here I was confused about how you made 'FM' from the Many-Faced God, haha ;) I'm not very fluent in shorts for the AOSIAF names, especially since I read the books in a different language.

16 minutes ago, TheKnightOfJests said:

I can agree with this, except that they cut prayers, and add the anti religious lines.

It's the entire reason I made the topic. If you don't want parts from the book that dealt with religion in the show, don't MAKE UP parts that weren't in the books to push your own personal opinions.

And if it was only Sansa, this wouldn't be as noticeable to me, she's just a good example, and her change might even be believable even being different from the books. This being said, with how many times characters have bashed religion, or just said something negative about it, it's hard for me to not just think "oooh another anti religious line" instead of "oh, well maybe they though that would be better of something"

I'd say that maybe the thought there is some narrative benefit in exaggerating those parts (thinking that the viewers are morons since circa 2012, not only in that aspect), and not aiming at a balanced portrayal. The show never struck me as anti-religious, but then again, I just don't pay that much attention to this aspect, so if you say there is a trend, I won't argue. But form my, casual, not bothered with religion point of view: I don't any disturbance in the medieval realities, I don't find their portrayal as a caricature. I take it that the average religiosity is just not prominently shown, not that it doesn't exist in D&D-land.


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TheKnightOfJests said:

Ned was only in for one season. Sort of like how Sansa is religious in the first two seasons, and then stops in the third.

We also get the Hound insulting those average believers.

The Hound wouldn't be the Hound if he did not.

And it doesn't matter how long Ned was in the show (he's also in season 6, so you are incorrect on that part, anyway)...he's a huge part of the story and his beliefs are the basis for a lot of the main character's actions for the rest of the story.  The show clearly depicts non-fanatics, as I illustrated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, sj4iy said:

The Hound wouldn't be the Hound if he did not.

And it doesn't matter how long Ned was in the show (he's also in season 6, so you are incorrect on that part, anyway)...he's a huge part of the story and his beliefs are the basis for a lot of the main character's actions for the rest of the story.  The show clearly depicts non-fanatics, as I illustrated.

As the overwhelming minority though.

Fine, Ned's in a flashback so we have him in two seasons then. The meeting the Hound had was made up for the show.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×