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Three observations: Is HS bluffing? What's going on with Aeron? Future of the dragons? (SPOILERS)


FreyPiesForSkagos

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There were three things that really got me thinking this episode:

1) Is the High Sparrow bluffing? I mean, I liked his dialogue with Jaime very much and it is pretty clear that he won the argument. But wasn't his point about the unimportance of his person rather weak? What would happen, if the High Sparrow were to die? Wouldn't his followers probably fight among themselves and lose their unity und consequently their power? At least, that's what I think might happen. I think his charisma is much more important than he lets on. What do you guys think?

2) Why does Aeron look older than Euron and even Balon? I am curious where this is going. Is he really older than Euron? If so, will he try to become king himself? Or does him being a priest somehow forbid it? On the other hand, he will neither support Yara nor Euron, that seems pretty clear, so who will he support? Theon, if he shows up in time? I don't find any of the possibilities very convincing, but since there is no Victarion, what will he do?

3) Finally, these dragons are more intelligent than people give them credit for. They are no equivalent of nuclear weapons, because they are not simply passive tools of whoever happens to have them. Tyrion's scene made this pretty clearly, I think. Probably the best use of CGI on the show so far. This only makes the question more intriguing where these two dragons will end up.

If you fancy videos, you might want to take a look at this one, in which I talk about some more topics concerning this weeks episode:

 

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11 hours ago, FreyPiesForSkagos said:

1) Is the High Sparrow bluffing? I mean, I liked his dialogue with Jaime very much and it is pretty clear that he won the argument. But wasn't his point about the unimportance of his person rather weak? What would happen, if the High Sparrow were to die? Wouldn't his followers probably fight among themselves and lose their unity und consequently their power? At least, that's what I think might happen. I think his charisma is much more important than he lets on. What do you guys think?

I think the High Sparrow will die along with his followers. As for whoever get to fix the aftermath, assuming that Cersei will survive S6, then probably the Tyrells will be the one to bring order in King's Landing. But who knows. I'm not sure where this will be heading if Tommen dies.

11 hours ago, FreyPiesForSkagos said:

2) Why does Aeron look older than Euron and even Balon? I am curious where this is going. Is he really older than Euron? If so, will he try to become king himself? Or does him being a priest somehow forbid it? On the other hand, he will neither support Yara nor Euron, that seems pretty clear, so who will he support? Theon, if he shows up in time? I don't find any of the possibilities very convincing, but since there is no Victarion, what will he do?

About Aeron's appearance and age, he's the youngest of the Greyjoy siblings. Euron is the second oldest, but he may have used magic to maintain his youth. Since the show removed Vic, Damphair's choice in who he wants to be king could diverge from the book. The showrunners might as well have Aeron support Yara, removing his sexist notion. However, given the fact that

Spoiler

there was leak stated Theon arrived at Pyke around the same time of the Kingsmoot, this is the chance of Aeron supporting Theon as his candidate.

 

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2 hours ago, The Arthur Smith said:

I think the High Sparrow will die along with his followers. As for whoever get to fix the aftermath, assuming that Cersei will survive S6, then probably the Tyrells will be the one to bring order in King's Landing. But who knows. I'm not sure where this will be heading if Tommen dies.

About Aeron's appearance and age, he's the youngest of the Greyjoy siblings. Euron is the second oldest, but he may have used magic to maintain his youth. Since the show removed Vic, Damphair's choice in who he wants to be king could diverge from the book. The showrunners might as well have Aeron support Yara, removing his sexist notion. However, given the fact that

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there was leak stated Theon arrived at Pyke around the same time of the Kingsmoot, this is the chance of Aeron supporting Theon as his candidate.

 

1) I also think he will probably be destroyed along with his followers. So, does that mean you agree that he is more or less bluffing here?

2) I am completely sure that he will not support Yara. If that were his plan, he would not have called for a kingsmoot in the first place, would he? Yara is Balon's heir by default. A kingsmoot can only serve to untermine her claim, don't you think?

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The HS is not bluffing - he has faith that there is something more meaningful than his corporeal form, he is just afraid of confronting it. The HS and the Faith Militant mean something important to the story, they are not just another enemy or conflict to keep things interesting, they are proof that the great houses are no longer in control of Westeros. Chaos is taking control, as LF noted back in S4, the people have become desperate. The HS knows that if he is removed as the leader of the faith someone else will rise up because people are that desperate.

I don't think there will be any order in KL from this point on, just increasing disorder until it's destruction - Dany's vision of ash falling in the throne room.

 

I'm not sure what's going on with the Greyjoy's in the show - haven't seen enough to work it out yet. What matters is that Mel's blood sacrifice did work, because Balon eventually died, by his brother's hand, who has returned to take control of the Iron Islands. Did they even specifically call Aeron 'Aeron' in show? I can't recall?

 

Finally, re the dragons being nukes - if a nuclear weapon had an AI brain, would it make it any less destructive? yes, the dragons are like cute puppy dogs that are nice to Dany and Tyrion - but that's the point, you as a viewer are already emotionally invested in them so that when they do go nuclear on Westeros, you are conflicted about what to feel.

What if a dragon eats Sansa? Jon? Hodor? Characters that haven't done much wrong at this stage. How will you feel if one of Dany's cute puppy dogs eats a basically nice person? That's the point of the setup.

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4 hours ago, ummester said:

The HS is not bluffing - he has faith that there is something more meaningful than his corporeal form, he is just afraid of confronting it. The HS and the Faith Militant mean something important to the story, they are not just another enemy or conflict to keep things interesting, they are proof that the great houses are no longer in control of Westeros. Chaos is taking control, as LF noted back in S4, the people have become desperate. The HS knows that if he is removed as the leader of the faith someone else will rise up because people are that desperate.

I don't think there will be any order in KL from this point on, just increasing disorder until it's destruction - Dany's vision of ash falling in the throne room.

 

I'm not sure what's going on with the Greyjoy's in the show - haven't seen enough to work it out yet. What matters is that Mel's blood sacrifice did work, because Balon eventually died, by his brother's hand, who has returned to take control of the Iron Islands. Did they even specifically call Aeron 'Aeron' in show? I can't recall?

 

Finally, re the dragons being nukes - if a nuclear weapon had an AI brain, would it make it any less destructive? yes, the dragons are like cute puppy dogs that are nice to Dany and Tyrion - but that's the point, you as a viewer are already emotionally invested in them so that when they do go nuclear on Westeros, you are conflicted about what to feel.

What if a dragon eats Sansa? Jon? Hodor? Characters that haven't done much wrong at this stage. How will you feel if one of Dany's cute puppy dogs eats a basically nice person? That's the point of the setup.

1) I guess, I haven't made sufficiently clear what I meant when I said "bluffing". I did not mean to say that he is all fake and secretly all full of himself. I do agree that he might very well be sincere in his piety and not simply one more player of the game and all that. However, I disagree on him being replaceable. Of course there would be another should he be removed. But would that new leader be as clever as this High Septon? Would he manage to further increase his numbers an keep the other powers within KL in check? I don't think so. Would you not agree that the High Sparrow is exceptionally clever and charismatic?

2) Hm, don't know if that really makes Mel's efforts successful. Anyway, he was not called "Aeron" on the show, but the Viewer's Guide calls him that. I hear that this has changed now. I am more confused about the Ironborn storyline than before. ;) That said, I am sure it is Aeron, otherwise the Viewer's Guide would never have said say and I do wonder whom he will support, because there is no obvious candidate, I think.

3) I am not saying the dragons are less destructive. I am only saying that they are not mere tools, but rather real characters of their own, which takes away a lot from the nuke comparison, don't you think?

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Regarding 'Aeron'.. I don't really think his character here is the same as the book, and I don't think his role will be all that important ( well I hope not because the actor was useless).

Seems to me that he is more of a stand-in character who performs some of the function of the Damphair, but isn't given such a big role. Whether he is Balons brother in the show or not I don't know either. Either way I think the Kingsmoot will go relatively similarly to how it does in the books, except maybe with Theon in there somewhere.

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5 minutes ago, FreyPiesForSkagos said:

Would you not agree that the High Sparrow is exceptionally clever and charismatic?

Depends how you are thinking of clever - I don't think he is being clever in the way Tyrion is, for example, understanding things to manipulate them as a means to his own end. I think he is more worldly (old and wise) and that is why people listen to him - but I think his motivations are purely external - he wants to bring the justice of the 7 to the realm not for himself but for the 7 and the realm.

By bluffing I thought you meant was he willing to let Jamie kill him - I think he was. If it was does he genuinely believe that individual people are kind of worthless (including himself) - I think that is true of his thoughts also. I don't think the HS either likes or dislikes people, including himself, he just sees people as a path to the 7.

10 minutes ago, FreyPiesForSkagos said:

I am more confused about the Ironborn storyline than before. ;)

Same - I feel it's too early to try and guess where the show is going with it.

11 minutes ago, FreyPiesForSkagos said:

I am only saying that they are not mere tools, but rather real characters of their own, which takes away a lot from the nuke comparison, don't you think?

I think it adds to it. If a nuke chooses to be a nuke, does it make it a better or worse nuke? The dragons are like any good movie monster - there is a reason to sympathise with them but they are still monsters. That they are also a human characters children and can form bonds with human characters just makes them more layered - but they remain monstrous harbingers of destruction :D It's ok to like monstrous harbingers of destruxtion, sometimes things need a little destruction.

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1 hour ago, ummester said:

Depends how you are thinking of clever - I don't think he is being clever in the way Tyrion is, for example, understanding things to manipulate them as a means to his own end. I think he is more worldly (old and wise) and that is why people listen to him - but I think his motivations are purely external - he wants to bring the justice of the 7 to the realm not for himself but for the 7 and the realm.

By bluffing I thought you meant was he willing to let Jamie kill him - I think he was. If it was does he genuinely believe that individual people are kind of worthless (including himself) - I think that is true of his thoughts also. I don't think the HS either likes or dislikes people, including himself, he just sees people as a path to the 7.

Same - I feel it's too early to try and guess where the show is going with it.

I think it adds to it. If a nuke chooses to be a nuke, does it make it a better or worse nuke? The dragons are like any good movie monster - there is a reason to sympathise with them but they are still monsters. That they are also a human characters children and can form bonds with human characters just makes them more layered - but they remain monstrous harbingers of destruction :D It's ok to like monstrous harbingers of destruxtion, sometimes things need a little destruction.

1) Actually, I was thinking that the HS was bluffing in so far as he probably knows that his own death would be a major threat to the movement. I think he knows that, but talked like it weren't the case anyway to impress Jaime. That said, only because he knows that his charisma and all goes a long was, he doesn't have to think himself especially worthy in the eyes of the Seven.

3) Hm, you could say that, I guess. Anyway, for me the concept of nukes more or less includes their being mere impartial tools. It's part of their horror that they are not at all capable of mercy and that anybody who gets his hands on one can use them. Nukes can get out of hand in a way dragons probably can't. Would you agree?

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14 hours ago, FreyPiesForSkagos said:

2) I am completely sure that he will not support Yara. If that were his plan, he would not have called for a kingsmoot in the first place, would he? Yara is Balon's heir by default. A kingsmoot can only serve to untermine her claim, don't you think?

You have a point. Damphair doesn't want a woman to sit on the throne, but the show cuts out Victarion. Though all we know that as long as Euron doesn't win the Kingsmoot, then things will be fine for Aeron, even it means grain of salt like having a woman to rule. Aeron might as well support other candidates than Euron and Yara.

However, if the case with Aeron does support Yara even if she's an heir by  default, then a Kingsmoot still have to be held from what i see, because Yara is a woman and the Iron Island is obviously a patriarchal society, except more so than the rest of Westeros. So women wasn't include in the line of succession, so Yara have to find ways to claim support for her kingship by winning the Kingsmoot, which Aero may help. That is, if Aeron supports her in the show contrast to the book.

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8 hours ago, The Arthur Smith said:

You have a point. Damphair doesn't want a woman to sit on the throne, but the show cuts out Victarion. Though all we know that as long as Euron doesn't win the Kingsmoot, then things will be fine for Aeron, even it means grain of salt like having a woman to rule. Aeron might as well support other candidates than Euron and Yara.

However, if the case with Aeron does support Yara even if she's an heir by  default, then a Kingsmoot still have to be held from what i see, because Yara is a woman and the Iron Island is obviously a patriarchal society, except more so than the rest of Westeros. So women wasn't include in the line of succession, so Yara have to find ways to claim support for her kingship by winning the Kingsmoot, which Aero may help. That is, if Aeron supports her in the show contrast to the book.

Hm, can't agree wirh your second paragraph. There is no such thing as a need for a kingsmoot. The last kingsmoot was thousands of years ago. It is simply no longer part of the political system until Aeron bringt it back single-handedly. Well, that is if they haven't completely changed that in the show. Anyway, he did not sounds like he was in favor of Yara winning, was he?

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7 hours ago, FreyPiesForSkagos said:

Hm, can't agree wirh your second paragraph. There is no such thing as a need for a kingsmoot. The last kingsmoot was thousands of years ago. It is simply no longer part of the political system until Aeron bringt it back single-handedly. Well, that is if they haven't completely changed that in the show. Anyway, he did not sounds like he was in favor of Yara winning, was he?

In the scene with Yara and Aeron, Damphair seems indifferent toward Yara becoming a king. He only explained to Yara that she may nor may not become the first female ruler of the Iron Island. However, I expected Book!Aeron to be more hostile toward Yara, given with his patriotic trait.

I'm not sure how the show is going to handle with who Aeron wants as his king now that they cut out Victarion. If the show is going to have Aeron support Yara, then logically it would make sense to have a Kingsmoot. By law, Euron would become the next king in line, excluding female heirs of the king cause like I said, they don't support women ruling. In fact, the whole reason why Aeron wants to host a Kingsmoot is cause he doesn't want Euron to be the next king. Aeron deem him to be a godless man and as by the law of succession, Euron should be the next king since he's the second eldest brother in the sibling, follow by Victarion and him. Aeron won't have any of that and instead choose to support Victarion, despite that Victarion is only second in line.

In the book, Aeron does not approve of Asha become king due to be a woman. But Asha is still determine to win the Kingsmoot as she still believe herself to be Balon's heir as Balon himself chooses this way. The only way to achieve this is by winning the Kingsmoot, where Ironborn gather to vote who gets to be king. As the results, Asha managed to get supports by several Ironborn. This prove that not all the Ironborn follows the patrical values and evident that the Kingsmoot is biggest for ha to climb up her steps to become king.

So I expected the same for Yara in the show. Since the show omitted Victarion, hey may change with Aeron supporting Yara as king  instead, that is if they remove his sexist notion. Despite Yara being a woman, she may still have supports during the Kingsmoot like in the book. For Aeron, a long as Euron doesn't become king, then it's all fine.

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High Sparrow made a point... he won because his point made sense

 

Think about it.  Do  you even know his or anyone of his guards name? Besides Lancel, NO ONE. They are nobodies. When they write the story of how Jamie, the kingslayer, died, it would not have a huge back story to tell about his killers. 

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34 minutes ago, The Arthur Smith said:

In the scene with Yara and Aeron, Damphair seems indifferent toward Yara becoming a king. He only explained to Yara that she may nor may not become the first female ruler of the Iron Island. However, I expected Book!Aeron to be more hostile toward Yara, given with his patriotic trait.

I'm not sure how the show is going to handle with who Aeron wants as his king now that they cut out Victarion. If the show is going to have Aeron support Yara, then logically it would make sense to have a Kingsmoot. By law, Euron would become the next king in line, excluding female heirs of the king cause like I said, they don't support women ruling. In fact, the whole reason why Aeron wants to host a Kingsmoot is cause he doesn't want Euron to be the next king. Aeron deem him to be a godless man and as by the law of succession, Euron should be the next king since he's the second eldest brother in the sibling, follow by Victarion and him. Aeron won't have any of that and instead choose to support Victarion, despite that Victarion is only second in line.

In the book, Aeron does not approve of Asha become king due to be a woman. But Asha is still determine to win the Kingsmoot as she still believe herself to be Balon's heir as Balon himself chooses this way. The only way to achieve this is by winning the Kingsmoot, where Ironborn gather to vote who gets to be king. As the results, Asha managed to get supports by several Ironborn. This prove that not all the Ironborn follows the patrical values and evident that the Kingsmoot is biggest for ha to climb up her steps to become king.

So I expected the same for Yara in the show. Since the show omitted Victarion, hey may change with Aeron supporting Yara as king  instead, that is if they remove his sexist notion. Despite Yara being a woman, she may still have supports during the Kingsmoot like in the book. For Aeron, a long as Euron doesn't become king, then it's all fine.

So, that means it all comes down to succession law. I would argue that there is no real law that says that Yara can't be Balon's heir. If Balon names her, she's the heir. Therefore, a kingsmoot weakens her claim instead of helping her. At least that's the way I see it. Do you have any evidence from either book or show that Yara is not the heir by law? I mean, Balon certainly never feared that people would not accept her, did he? (Maybe I am forgetting something here.) Asha's claim (in the books) is only in doubt because Euron is known to not abide by any laws. Euron shows up and is able to rally supporters. He is basically contesting Asha's claim and only because he fears that Euron might succeed in doing so, he calls the kingsmoot. For me the kingsmoot in the books is simply a tool to prevent Euron.

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13 minutes ago, xjlxking said:

High Sparrow made a point... he won because his point made sense

 

Think about it.  Do  you even know his or anyone of his guards name? Besides Lancel, NO ONE. They are nobodies. When they write the story of how Jamie, the kingslayer, died, it would not have a huge back story to tell about his killers. 

I agree that all those sparrows are unimportant, but the High Sparrow IS important, I think. That's the point here. If Jaime had killed him, Jaime would also have been killed, no doubt about that. There would have been A LOT of blood. Granted. But would the Faith Militant and the Sparrows and that whole complex not collapse pretty soon?

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2 minutes ago, FreyPiesForSkagos said:

I agree that all those sparrows are unimportant, but the Hogh Sparrow IS important, I think. That's the point here. If Jaime had killed him, Jaime would also have been killed, no doubt about that. There would have been A LOT of blood. Granted. But would the Faith Militant and the Sparrows and that whole complex not collapse pretty soon?

Maybe it would collapse but to high sparrow, he would end up killing a queen as well. Not to mention many other people

 

at the end high sparrow does not even have a name. He is not important, books won't be written about him. No one will remember him because he holds no name. 

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19 minutes ago, xjlxking said:

Maybe it would collapse but to high sparrow, he would end up killing a queen as well. Not to mention many other people

 

at the end high sparrow does not even have a name. He is not important, books won't be written about him. No one will remember him because he holds no name. 

Yeah, in that sense he may not be important. But he is bluffing insofar as he claims that killing him would not change anything. That's certainly a bluff (or he is mistaken), isn't it?

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12 hours ago, FreyPiesForSkagos said:

So, that means it all comes down to succession law. I would argue that there is no real law that says that Yara can't be Balon's heir. If Balon names her, she's the heir. Therefore, a kingsmoot weakens her claim instead of helping her. At least that's the way I see it. Do you have any evidence from either book or show that Yara is not the heir by law? I mean, Balon certainly never feared that people would not accept her, did he? (Maybe I am forgetting something here.) Asha's claim (in the books) is only in doubt because Euron is known to not abide by any laws. Euron shows up and is able to rally supporters. He is basically contesting Asha's claim and only because he fears that Euron might succeed in doing so, he calls the kingsmoot. For me the kingsmoot in the books is simply a tool to prevent Euron.

The thing is that Balon appointed Yara/Asha to be his heir since he lost 3 sons, leaving Yara/Asha to be the only offspring he have, so Balon is willing to go against the law of doing so as he want his line to continue. However, many people forget or ignore Balon's wish and starts shoving their assertion to Yara/Asha that she can't become king despite the fact that Balon want her so. 

About the kingsmoot weakens her claim, it doesn't cause the purpose of it is to elect on who gets to be the king. Not only the royals get to be candidate, but also the noble in the Iron Islands as well. So Yara/Asha count as one of the many contenders for the Kingsmoot.

There are evidences where few Ironborn (particularly Yara/Asha uncles) disapprove or warn her of becoming king as the law accords by the patriarch, both from the book and show:

Quote

Theon: She can't lead an attack!
Balon: And why not?
Theon: You're a woman!

2x02 The Night Lands

Quote

Balon favored Asha, the child of his body, but a woman cannot rule the ironborn.

-Damphair

Quote

"The Princess Asha. She has set her sails for home. The Reader sends out ravens, summoning all her friends to Harlaw. He says that Balon meant for her to sit the Seastone Chair."

"The Drowned God shall decide who sits the Seastone Chair," the priest[Aeron] said.

Quote

"You will not want to hear this, Asha, but you will not be chosen. No woman has ever ruled the ironborn. Gwynesse is seven years my elder, but when our father died the Ten Towers came to me. It will be the same for you. You are Balon's daughter, not his son. And you have three uncles."

...

Lord Rodrik shook his head. "Beneath the bones of Nagga every captain stands as equal. Some may shout your name, I do not doubt it. But not enough. And when the shouts ring out for Victarion or the Crow's Eye, some of those now drinking in my hall will join the rest. I say again, do not sail into this storm. Your fight is hopeless."

"No fight is hopeless till it has been fought. I have the best claim. I am the heir of Balon's body."

"You are still a willful child. Think of your poor mother. You are all that Lanny has left to her. I will put a torch to Black Wind if need be, to keep you here."

Quote

"Balon's sons are dead," Red Ralf Stonehouse had argued, "and Asha is a woman. You[Victarion] were your brother's strong right arm, you must pick up the sword that he let fall."

Quote

Victarion's frown grew deeper. "You cannot hope to rule. You are a woman."

Quote

"Go back to your dolls, niece. Leave the winning of wars to men."

-Victarion

Quote

"There's no one braver than my nuncle, no one stronger, no one fiercer in a fight. And he counts to ten as quick as any man, I have seen him do it... though when he needs to go to twenty he does take off his boots." That made them laugh again. "He has no sons, though. His wives keep dying. The Crow's Eye is his elder and has a better claim ..."

"He does!" the Red Oarsman shouted from below.

"Ah, but my claim is better still." Asha set the collar on her head at a jaunty angle, so the gold gleamed against her dark hair. "Balon's brother cannot come before Balon's son!"

"Balon's sons are dead," cried Rafe the Limper. "All I see is Balon's little daughter!"

"Daughter?" Asha slipped a hand beneath her jerkin. "Oho! What's this? Shall I show you? Some of you have not seen one since they weaned you."

Quote

Asha's own crew took up the cry. "ASHA! ASHA! ASHA QUEEN!" They stamped their feet and shook their fists and yelled as the Damphair listened in disbelief. She would leave her Father's work undone! Yet Tristifer Botley was shouting for her, with many Harlaws, some Goodbrothers, red-faced Lord Merlyn, more men than the priest would ever have believed ... for a woman!

-Damphair

 

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On 06/05/2016 at 0:26 AM, FreyPiesForSkagos said:

1) Actually, I was thinking that the HS was bluffing in so far as he probably knows that his own death would be a major threat to the movement. I think he knows that, but talked like it weren't the case anyway to impress Jaime. That said, only because he knows that his charisma and all goes a long was, he doesn't have to think himself especially worthy in the eyes of the Seven.

3) Hm, you could say that, I guess. Anyway, for me the concept of nukes more or less includes their being mere impartial tools. It's part of their horror that they are not at all capable of mercy and that anybody who gets his hands on one can use them. Nukes can get out of hand in a way dragons probably can't. Would you agree?

1) No, I think the HS believes he will always be replaced.

2) Again no - I think dragons can get out of hand. Think Godzilla. THe only difference is that a person can sympathise with a dragon.

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3 hours ago, The Arthur Smith said:

The thing is that Balon appointed Yara/Asha to be his heir since he lost 3 sons, leaving Yara/Asha to be the only offspring he have, so Balon is willing to go against the law of doing so as he want his line to continue. However, many people forget or ignore Balon's wish and starts shoving their assertion to Yara/Asha that she can't become king despite the fact that Balon want her so. 

About the kingsmoot weakens her claim, it doesn't cause the purpose of it is to elect on who gets to be the king. Not only the royals get to be candidate, but also the noble in the Iron Islands as well. So Yara/Asha count as one of the many contenders for the Kingsmoot.

There are evidences where few Ironborn (particularly Yara/Asha uncles) disapprove or warn her of becoming king as the law accords by the patriarch, both from the book and show:

 

Thanks for collecting all the evidence! But I must say, it seems it is actually custom and probably religion that goes against Yara being queen and not actually law, is it? Nobody says anything like "It's forbidden!" or "It's against the law!" or even "Balon broke the law, when he tried to make her his heir!"

I mean, if it were against the law for Yara to rule, she would not even be allowed as a candidate at the kingsmoot, would she? Either a woman can be queen, then Balon's choice stands. Or it is not allowed. Than a kingsmoot can't make her queen either, right? 

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