Jon's attitude at the end

[Lord Friendzone]

3 hours ago, Dany's Golden Fleece said:

The last few episodes have me convinced that there is no AA in this series, it was all just a myth. There is no singular hero/heroine in this series. 

Maybe it would be even better this way but my money is still on Daeny being aar.

[Lord Friendzone]

3 hours ago, Dany's Golden Fleece said:

The last few episodes have me convinced that there is no AA in this series, it was all just a myth. There is no singular hero/heroine in this series. 

Maybe it would be even better this way but my money is still on Daeny being aar.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

59 minutes ago, bb1180 said:

Its hard to know for an absolute certainty,  but he appears to be 'alive' in a true sense,  so to answer the question,  I think that he likely does.  

Well was Beric eating and stuff afterward? I think only Ungregor doesn't need to Eat, but he's more zombie than human now.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

59 minutes ago, bb1180 said:

Its hard to know for an absolute certainty,  but he appears to be 'alive' in a true sense,  so to answer the question,  I think that he likely does.  

Well was Beric eating and stuff afterward? I think only Ungregor doesn't need to Eat, but he's more zombie than human now.

[Hoppy Hour]

6 hours ago, Mr Smith said:

I'm fine with it. I think the show did a great job of conveying that Jon, while still being Jon to a degree, has changed somewhat, and clearly wants to make more of his life than what he has to this point. I didn't see the decision coming, but I thought it was excellently delivered. One of the best parts of the episode for me.

I agree.

[Hoppy Hour]

6 hours ago, Mr Smith said:

I'm fine with it. I think the show did a great job of conveying that Jon, while still being Jon to a degree, has changed somewhat, and clearly wants to make more of his life than what he has to this point. I didn't see the decision coming, but I thought it was excellently delivered. One of the best parts of the episode for me.

I agree.

[Mourneblade]

1 hour ago, dantares83 said:

Will book Jon really kill a boy?

i dont think so.

There is no realistic scenario that leaves Olly alive. Jon had to make the Hard choice, and it was the right one. The boy was a lost cause. 

 

Seriously show me a way where Olly lives and is able to contribute at the wall? There is no longer a home for Olly, even if he lets him go, and no place he can survive south of the Wall in the winter. There is also no changing his mind either. Olly would have tried to kill Jon again, or a Wildling, and would be the kid who opens the gates to Ramsey. Leave him in a cell, and all he does is eat food which there is a shortage of.

 

So yeah if faced with a scenario that TV Jon faced with Olly, Book Jon executes a kid.

[hallam]

3 hours ago, Mourneblade said:

This. So much this.

 

People are complaining that Jon used the "Loophole" but I have been predicting this for years. Jon is not using it as a "Loophole", Jon was murdered by the Night's Watch "And now his watch has ended". How is this a loophole, It happened, Jon gave his life for the Night's Watch,  and that is exactly how Jon Feels about it period. Whether or not this happens this way in the books or not, at least D&D got the spirit of this whole thing and adapted it well. 

Yep.

Jon refused to join Stannis saying that other people would not trust or be loyal to a man who broke his word. He was very clearly tempted but it was honor that kept him to his oath.

Being murdered by the NW ended any obligation Jon had to them, both literal and moral. When a bannerman pledges to his lord, the commitments flow both ways. That is why Brienne and Sansa just reminded us of that. The Nights Watch betrayed Jon. The oath is no longer binding.

Lets say that Jon had been killed in the Wilding attack on Castle Black by a Wilding and Mel brought him back to life. Would Jon have left? I don't think so. Even if the literal words permitted it, the oath is more than a literal contract. But being murdered by the senior commanders and the entire NW save four backing the mutineers releases him from the obligation.

Now the books might work out differently but only because the circumstances are a little different. There are wildings present when Jon is murdered. There is no locked room scene. The wildings hate Mel for the murder of Mance [i.e. really Rattleshirt]. There is no Carice van H. playing the part that you might want to keep for the later Red God scenes rather than introduce a new Red Witch. i still think it a real possibility Mel ends up on Jon's funeral pyre. But it is clear that the whole point of the death is to release Jon from both the literal and the moral obligations of his oath.

[hallam]

3 hours ago, Mourneblade said:

This. So much this.

 

People are complaining that Jon used the "Loophole" but I have been predicting this for years. Jon is not using it as a "Loophole", Jon was murdered by the Night's Watch "And now his watch has ended". How is this a loophole, It happened, Jon gave his life for the Night's Watch,  and that is exactly how Jon Feels about it period. Whether or not this happens this way in the books or not, at least D&D got the spirit of this whole thing and adapted it well. 

Yep.

Jon refused to join Stannis saying that other people would not trust or be loyal to a man who broke his word. He was very clearly tempted but it was honor that kept him to his oath.

Being murdered by the NW ended any obligation Jon had to them, both literal and moral. When a bannerman pledges to his lord, the commitments flow both ways. That is why Brienne and Sansa just reminded us of that. The Nights Watch betrayed Jon. The oath is no longer binding.

Lets say that Jon had been killed in the Wilding attack on Castle Black by a Wilding and Mel brought him back to life. Would Jon have left? I don't think so. Even if the literal words permitted it, the oath is more than a literal contract. But being murdered by the senior commanders and the entire NW save four backing the mutineers releases him from the obligation.

Now the books might work out differently but only because the circumstances are a little different. There are wildings present when Jon is murdered. There is no locked room scene. The wildings hate Mel for the murder of Mance [i.e. really Rattleshirt]. There is no Carice van H. playing the part that you might want to keep for the later Red God scenes rather than introduce a new Red Witch. i still think it a real possibility Mel ends up on Jon's funeral pyre. But it is clear that the whole point of the death is to release Jon from both the literal and the moral obligations of his oath.

[Tagganaro]

Have to disagree with OP on this one.  I think everything made perfect sense with Jon's attitude, considering the idea that "death changes you" a little or a lot.  I like the idea that Jon is done suffering fools now.  He's been dead, he's seen the nothingness, and now he's embraced his time on earth more.  Jon will be a darker character more committed to getting the job done now.  He tried to change the Night's Watch and failed.  Now he sees that he can do more without being constricted by his vows, which WERE technically broken when he died.

I'm not sure if the book will play it out differently.  I sort of expected total war at the Wall after Jon's death in the books with the NW being destroyed, thus relieving Jon of his vows when he awoke.  The circumstances were completely different with the Pink Letter already arriving and being the impetus for the Ides of Marsh.  

[GilletteMace]

9 hours ago, bb1180 said:

I don't want this going off the main topic,  but the main issue I have with it is that we clearly have a supernatural aspect to this story,  including a main character who has just been resurrected.  Its strongly suggestive of a higher power at play.  There's an apparent discrepancy there,  and IMO,  its one that needs some kind of logical explanation if there actually isn't one.  

The logical explanation is, that the force bringing Jon back is obviously part of the living world since there simply is nothing after death. No gods, nothing. His body was still part of the living world and the magic at work doesnt root in the nothingness.

[Ingelheim]

He’s done with it.  He’s seen the other side, seen what’s there, and comes back and realizes he needs to lead his life and get out of there. This place betrayed him, and everything he stood for has changed. Plus, he had to kill a child, Olly, and that’s what really does it. He kills an under-age kid and he can’t see the point in being up there any more. At the heart of it, he knows by staying at the Wall he can’t help the kingdoms and he’s probably going to die very quickly if he stays.

This is what Kit Harington says about Jon leaving the Watch, and I pretty much agree with everything.

[Mayura]

Ahh, this brings back memories of old fights about whether Jon's death released him of his vows :-) !! I wonder how it will play out in the books! 

I was quite happy with how the episode played out, I must say. Of course, Jon's death quite literally freed him from his vows as per NW oath "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death". I know some fans have been theorizing that "and for all the nights to come" means even death wouldn't release Jon from his vows but... The first (and original imo) part of the vow is very clear: death revokes the "contract". 

That being said, I don't think his death at the hands of his brothers was really what lead Jon to leave the Watch. I think Thorne's words might have played a role in Jon's decision. Because Jon noticed that Thorne was right in a way: Alliser was protecting what he thought was the essence of the NW, and it included fighting the wildlings to his opinion. To the contrary of Jon who, as a Lord Commander, changed the rules quite a bit by deciding that, despite hundreds of years spent fighting the wildings, the NW's mission was to protect the realms of men. Of men, wildlings included. And, quite frankly, to do what he believes is right (which is protecting the people in a broad sense and, also, more selfishly protecting the North), Jon doesn't need the Watch. In other words: the core values Jon is defending don't exactly match those of the current NW. So he decided he had done his duty to that Night's Watch and that his death had ended his watch. 

That doesn't mean I think he is letting the Watch down for good, but just that Jon will reform the NW much in the way Mance wanted it to change. 

About the apparent absence of an afterlife on the show: I didn't find that weird at all. If anything, I hope this is permanent, because I find it quite interesting. The fact that magic exists in that world doesn't mean there needs to be an omnipotent God and an afterlife necessarily. It just means that there are other realms of life than the realms of men and that there are other, more evanescent creatures maybe, who men consider as "Gods" but who are maybe just "nature" or "magic". And that the men only have the life they live and then, poof, there is nothing else, they don't matter. So they should live their lives at the fullest. If anything, this is a beautiful message, imo.

[Ankou]

Remembering nothing should be meaningless. If his soul or whatever moves on, it makes no sense his physical brain would have any memory of it, memory being a physical process. 

[Masha]

I don't think Jon returns to NW to reform it. I think he left it for good. The only way I can see him going back, is when the Others are defeated, the World is safe once again and everyone is asking him to take Iron Throne, and he takes the black again to avoid this.

While, right now Jon is kind of still shellshocked so I can't be sure, but I am thinking that unless he actually gets his emotions up and such by end of season, I am also feeling he is kind of will be suffering from Beric's condition, where he is just so tired of life, duty, honor and everything that he just doesn't care about anything anymore and he is just going on because he has to not because he wants to.

I hope this will not be the case in the show, though it might be in the book for sure.

 

 

 

 

[DJE]

I think Jon had a perfect reaction, as many others have said. I don' think that he is going to abandon the NW completely either. I think he is going to rally the North and prepare them for the impending Walker invasion.  To do that, he has to root out Ramsey and the Boltons. Like others have said, I think Sansa shows up next week and he gets the show version of the pink letter.

[Masha]

Unless the GOT pulls another "Starks ALMOST meet" troll on us like they did with Craster's keep battle and Jon and Bran in season 4? Where Jon actually leaves Castle Black and then Sansa arrives about 5 minutes after and nobody can trace where Jon has gone?

[GilletteMace]

18 minutes ago, Ankou said:

Remembering nothing should be meaningless. If his soul or whatever moves on, it makes no sense his physical brain would have any memory of it, memory being a physical process. 

that whats the whole jon ressurection is all about, there simply is no soul or anything that moves on. religion, gods and souls are just creations of the living world completely meaningless in the end, because there simply is nothing. i also think that this is a beautiful and deeply truthful message. concepts of afterlife only concern the living. this insight is the highlight of this episode.

[Margaery's Horse]

Is the consensus that Sansa/Brienne/Pod aren't arriving at WF after Jon departs?  At the end of 6e3 it appears to me that Jon is about to leave, and quickly at that.

It wraps up too nicely to have Sansa and Jon reunited and it isn't really the Stark MO to meet at the same place at the same time... ever.

Then again, having Jon and Sansa together might give more weight to them both pushing to reclaim WF/save Rickon.

[Visenya the Dragon]

6 hours ago, bb1180 said:

Its hard to know for an absolute certainty,  but he appears to be 'alive' in a true sense,  so to answer the question,  I think that he likely does.  

Thanks for answering.  I think he will too. We only have Beric to go off of and I think he was drinking wine. I seem to can't remember if Beric did eat or not. I guess it doesn't matter. Just curious of how dead he is or alive. 

So happy he is back. Surprised he never warged ghost. It seems he is not going to be a warg in the show.